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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-13-2012, 05:13 PM
  #626
DJ EarWax
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Calgary, Ottawa, and Buffalo are basically just as small. That doesn't change the fact that Edmonton is tiny.

There are giants in the playground (namely Montreal, Toronto, and New York) and if franchises like the Oilers, Flames, Senators, and Sabres don't receive extra support from their markets they will be crushed.

It is not franchises located in markets like Calgary, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Buffalo that drive player costs up to exorbiant levels. It's markets like New York, Montreal, and Toronto.
If you think Edmonton is tiny, I'd hate to hear what you think a place like Grand Prairie is. Edmontons size is really being overplayed in this convo. Edmonton isn't a mega city, but it isn't tiny. It's even considered a major city. Same with Calgary, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Buffalo. Is it tiny compared to New York, sure, but most are. I never hear anyone refer to Calgary or Ottawa as "tiny" either.

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12-13-2012, 05:16 PM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ EarWax View Post
If you think Edmonton is tiny, I'd hate to hear what you think a place like Grand Prairie is. Edmontons size is really being overplayed in this convo. Edmonton isn't a mega city, but it isn't tiny. It's even considered a major city. Same with Calgary, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Buffalo. Is it tiny compared to New York, sure, but most are. I never hear anyone refer to Calgary or Ottawa as "tiny" either.
In the world of "big league" professional sports Edmonton is about as tiny as it gets.

No one has ever, seriously, contemplated locating a major professional sports franchise in Grande Prairie.

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Old
12-13-2012, 07:48 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Oh i'm sorry Replacement...here - just for your sake:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmo.../16424861.html

Did you even read it?

So is that enough randomly submitted, often non substantiated information for you? Just like that time i cited NHL.com and you said it wasn't legit? Pffff save the bandwagon jumping for something you can substantiate on your own.

Edit - Please read the post above, and i apologize for being snarky. The Quote and it's details stand however, and can be found in the Edmonton Sun link. It is a fact that the Oilers are the only NHL team NOT receiving any non-hockey related revenues from the arenas they play in.
You are making categorical definitive statements. You also worded your statement erroneously indicating something like that the Oilers are the only club not to get Non HRR and that every other team gets 100%. Which was simply badly worded at best and inaccurate.

What exact smoking gun would you have me read from the linked article? This?

Quote:
"The Oilers have two fundamental competitive disadvantages," the Katz Group tells council. "We play in the league's smallest media market and are the only team/ownership group in the NHL that does not receive non-hockey revenues from the building in which it plays."
Please tell me that unsubstantiated hearsay is not what you are taking as fact.

But I fear that is what you are speaking of. Don't confuse an unsubstantiated statement by a vested interest, one that has been misleading through much of this process, with fact.

Also consider the difference between primary, secondary, and tertiary information being stated as "fact" The Katz groups statements, by virtue of vested interest, should not be taken as fact. Primary source information needs to be considered here and you don't have it.

You're guilty in this exchange of believing everything you read and stating it as fact.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-13-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old
12-13-2012, 08:01 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Seriously? Did you even read what i typed? Every single NHL team...every single one...gets 100% of the profits from the arenas they play in. Edmonton was the only team which did not. That would be considered "by definition" the norm for NHL teams.

Do some research youself maybe?
Before you get a chance to delete it this is what you wrote quoted for posterity.

Lets get real here. You're practically lambasting the other poster suggesting he doesn't read well when what you actually wrote is wrong and not even what you intended to write. Should he/she be reading what you thought you wrote, or what you actually wrote. Maybe if they read your mind as well

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12-13-2012, 08:11 PM
  #630
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Edmonton having pick up trucks? (It does. Probably the most for a hockey team city. Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary. It's because we're in the breadbasket)
Is Edmonton a big city or not? (It's big compared to towns, but it's on the smaller side in terms of the NHL, or, in fact, major sports.)

The real question is why the arena still looks like a pork chop. Also, anyone see the schemes released on oilers.nhl.com? Looking nice.

Build it, please.

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12-13-2012, 09:35 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Edmonton having pick up trucks? (It does. Probably the most for a hockey team city. Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary. It's because we're in the breadbasket)
Is Edmonton a big city or not? (It's big compared to towns, but it's on the smaller side in terms of the NHL, or, in fact, major sports.)

The real question is why the arena still looks like a pork chop. Also, anyone see the schemes released on oilers.nhl.com? Looking nice.

Build it, please.
A drive by poster(in either a ford or chevy diesel truck) informed us the new renderings are ugly, and we should just renovate rexall.

So it's all off unfortunately

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12-13-2012, 09:44 PM
  #632
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From biggest to smallest by population(Cities themselves....not counting surrounding areas)

New York

Los Angeles

Chicago

Toronto

Montreal

Philadelphia

Dallas

Calgary

San Jose

Detroit

Ottawa

Edmonton

Columbus

Winnipeg

Boston

Nashville

Denver

Vancouver

Washington

Raleigh

St. Louis

Anaheim

Tampa

Pittsburgh

Saint Paul

Newark

Buffalo

Glendale

Sunrise

Uniondale

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12-13-2012, 09:50 PM
  #633
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Including surrounding areas

1 New York City 19,069,796
2 Los Angeles 12,874,797
3 Chicago 9,580,567
4 Dallas 6,447,615
5 Philadelphia 5,968,252
6 Toronto 5,623,450
7 Miami 5,547,051
8 Washington 5,476,241
9 Atlanta-done
10 Boston 4,588,680
11 Detroit 4,403,437
12 Phoenix 4.364,094
13 San Jose 4,317,853
14 Montreal 3.814,738
15 Minnesota 3,269,814
16 St. Louis 2,828,990
17 Tampa 2,747,272
18 Denver 2,552,195
19 Pittsburgh 2,354,957
20 Vancouver 2,328,007
21 Columbus 1,773,120
22 Raleigh 1,742,816
23 Nashville 1,582,764
24 Calgary 1,230,200
25 Ottawa 1,220,700
26 Edmonton 1,155,400
27 Buffalo 1,124,309
28 Winnipeg 900,000

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12-13-2012, 09:56 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OilChuck View Post
Including surrounding areas

1 New York City 19,069,796
2 Los Angeles 12,874,797
3 Chicago 9,580,567
4 Dallas 6,447,615
5 Philadelphia 5,968,252
6 Toronto 5,623,450
7 Miami 5,547,051
8 Washington 5,476,241
9 Atlanta-done
10 Boston 4,588,680
11 Detroit 4,403,437
12 Phoenix 4.364,094
13 San Jose 4,317,853
14 Montreal 3.814,738
15 Minnesota 3,269,814
16 St. Louis 2,828,990
17 Tampa 2,747,272
18 Denver 2,552,195
19 Pittsburgh 2,354,957
20 Vancouver 2,328,007
21 Columbus 1,773,120
22 Raleigh 1,742,816
23 Nashville 1,582,764
24 Calgary 1,230,200
25 Ottawa 1,220,700
26 Edmonton 1,155,400
27 Buffalo 1,124,309
28 Winnipeg 900,000
Was just going to post that.

There was no way in hell that Edmonton had a greater population than areas like Boston(lol), Denver, Vancouver, St.Louis, Anahiem, Tampa, Pittsburgh, etc.

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12-13-2012, 09:57 PM
  #635
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^

These are the latest numbers for Canadian Metropolitan areas.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo05a-eng.htm

I can find no source that list Winnipeg as 900K. Which is pure fiction.

Edmonton is closing in on 1.2M Basically the same as Ottawa but Edmonton and Calgary will soon enough pass Ottawa in population.


Also the populations of Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Raleigh above are way off. Thats just on what I crosschecked so far. maybe link your numbers.

http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-UA.html


Last edited by Replacement: 12-13-2012 at 10:12 PM.
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12-13-2012, 10:44 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
There are giants in the playground (namely Montreal, Toronto, and New York) and if franchises like the Oilers, Flames, Senators, and Sabres don't receive extra support from their municipalities, they will be crushed.
I agree with this. And more than that I think some support at the provincial level is in order as well.

In Canada, on the prairies where temps can fall into the double digit minuses for half the year, a modern, financially viable arena is not a luxury. I think its is a necessity - provided the government believes that things like hockey and concerts and rodeos and farm shows and trade shows are important to the quality of life of its citizens.

The people use the building. The people require the building in order to avoid watching their city turn into the sort of place where the Golden Bears are the best hockey in town (sorry Replacement) and seeing any decent bands or events is going to require a flight to Vancouver.

I don't for a minute suggest that the province should be footing a huge percentage of the cost, but even a line of credit would be more helpful than the hopeless attitude the province has taken to this whole issue. And for the record yes I would say the same for Calgary, and Winnipeg (now that they are back in the league), if it was either of those cities looking to the province for a little support.

And while I'm at it, I've been one who isn't thrilled to have Mr Katz as the owner of the Oilers but I can see why he might be less than pleased about the whole gaming license issue. I mean the province isn't even willing to lift so much as a finger to facilitate a gaming license to help fund the project - recognizing that they would have the authority to see that the proceeds of any such license go strictly toward the funding/maintenance of the arena (for the people, the taxpaying citizens who like hockey and concerts and such) as opposed to into the pockets of Mr Katz. Why is the province so useless on an issue which has a big impact on the quality of life of the people who live in its capital city and certainly on the image of the province as a whole?

I think Mr Katz, and again this is not a big supporter of the guy saying this, bought the team specifically with the intent to build a new arena, profit from various arena related land deals/real-estate ventures and turn the team into a money making entity by grabbing up all the non-hockey revenue. However I also believe that in addition to making money Mr Katz is motivated by an enthusiasm for progress. He does want Edmonton to grow as a city and I think he was expecting more than lip service enthusiasm from the various levels of government for a plan that would help give the city a massive facelift and ensure that nearly 1/3 of the province's citizens have access to the various entertainment options that are expected in a modern 21st century city.

Don't get me wrong, Katz is a money chasing capitalist (there are always going to be folks who dislike him based on that alone) and he has handled his pr very very badly during these fruitless negotiations. But I kinda see why he's disappointed, and the truth is we aren't likely to find anyone better/richer to buy the team and offer to pay for the whole shot out of his pocket. So lets gets some shovels in the ground ffs.

I'm most angry with the province, Katz second and the city third. I find that I don't even really care about the lockout because this whole fiasco is looming in the background threatening to squash any enjoyment I might feel if the league were to resume play.

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12-13-2012, 11:14 PM
  #637
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Former Edmontonian Cam Cole weighs in on the arena circus in the Vancouver Sun.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...516/story.html

Basically it's the "Is Rexall Place really all that bad? Why is Edmonton aspiring to be more than it is by trying to compete with Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto?" argument.

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12-13-2012, 11:17 PM
  #638
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Don't get me wrong, Katz is a money chasing capitalist
Unless you mean capitalist in the pejorative sense, he most certainly is not.

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12-13-2012, 11:28 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Silver View Post
Unless you mean capitalist in the pejorative sense, he most certainly is not.
I dunno. So far he's still the only one with any money on the table.

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12-14-2012, 08:40 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by OilChuck View Post
Including surrounding areas

1 New York City 19,069,796
2 Los Angeles 12,874,797
3 Chicago 9,580,567
4 Dallas 6,447,615
5 Philadelphia 5,968,252
6 Toronto 5,623,450
7 Miami 5,547,051
8 Washington 5,476,241
9 Atlanta-done
10 Boston 4,588,680
11 Detroit 4,403,437
12 Phoenix 4.364,094
13 San Jose 4,317,853
14 Montreal 3.814,738
15 Minnesota 3,269,814
16 St. Louis 2,828,990
17 Tampa 2,747,272
18 Denver 2,552,195
19 Pittsburgh 2,354,957
20 Vancouver 2,328,007
21 Columbus 1,773,120
22 Raleigh 1,742,816
23 Nashville 1,582,764
24 Calgary 1,230,200
25 Ottawa 1,220,700
26 Edmonton 1,155,400
27 Buffalo 1,124,309
28 Winnipeg 900,000
These are the numbers we have to look at IMO, not what the City itself has.

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12-14-2012, 08:41 AM
  #641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Before you get a chance to delete it this is what you wrote quoted for posterity.

Lets get real here. You're practically lambasting the other poster suggesting he doesn't read well when what you actually wrote is wrong and not even what you intended to write. Should he/she be reading what you thought you wrote, or what you actually wrote. Maybe if they read your mind as well
Hey, i admitted my mistakes (and even apologized while clarifying), which is a lot more than most posters here do. Belittling someone for doing such can speak volumes of one's character. Keep that in mind when you're handing out your own version of high handedness....which we can usually expect in 3, 2, 1.

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12-14-2012, 09:05 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Former Edmontonian Cam Cole weighs in on the arena circus in the Vancouver Sun.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...516/story.html

Basically it's the "Is Rexall Place really all that bad? Why is Edmonton aspiring to be more than it is by trying to compete with Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto?" argument.
So we are trying to compete with van, mtl and tor now?

Whatever happened to Rexall is one of the busiest arenas in North America. And what is wrong with trying to keep it that way?

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12-14-2012, 09:14 AM
  #643
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Are some posters arguing that the Oilers aren't a tiny market? Really?
They are one of the smallest sports markets in North America. How can anybody dispute this?
The fact of the matter is that Edmonton 100% needs a new arena if they want to maintain themselves as a viable hockey market long term. Anybody who thinks otherwise is living in another world, not the big business world of major sports.

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12-14-2012, 09:21 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Are some posters arguing that the Oilers aren't a tiny market? Really?
They are one of the smallest sports markets in North America. How can anybody dispute this?
The fact of the matter is that Edmonton 100% needs a new arena if they want to maintain themselves as a viable hockey market long term. Anybody who thinks otherwise is living in another world, not the big business world of major sports.
No, my arguement is that the city itself isn't "tiny" per se. It's not huge, but when I think of tiny, I think of places like Grand prairie, Red Deer, Cardston etc. I don't ever hear or read people stating that Calgary, Ottawa or Buffalo are "tiny", yet they're basically the same size as Edmonton.
As far as market size, I would say the Edmonton market size for hockey is considerably larger than many, if not most NHL cities.
If you had 1 billion people living on the North Pole, does it become the worlds largest air conditioning market? Of course not, market size is relative.

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12-14-2012, 09:28 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by DJ EarWax View Post
No, my arguement is that the city itself isn't "tiny" per se. It's not huge, but when I think of tiny, I think of places like Grand prairie, Red Deer, Cardston etc. I don't ever hear or read people stating that Calgary, Ottawa or Buffalo are "tiny", yet they're basically the same size as Edmonton.
As far as market size, I would say the Edmonton market size for hockey is considerably larger than many, if not most NHL cities.
If you had 1 billion people living on the North Pole, does it become the worlds largest air conditioning market? Of course not, market size is relative.
Calgary, Ottawa and Buffalo are tiny also compared to other major sports markets. However, Calgary will likely be getting a new arena and Ottawa and Buffalo both have fairly new arenas, that leaves Edmonton as the only market in limbo.
I think that Edmonton gets the reputation as tiny because it's the northernmost location so some people view it as some type of outpost.

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12-14-2012, 09:28 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Former Edmontonian Cam Cole weighs in on the arena circus in the Vancouver Sun.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...516/story.html

Basically it's the "Is Rexall Place really all that bad? Why is Edmonton aspiring to be more than it is by trying to compete with Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto?" argument.
Apparently amenities like decent-sized seats and concourses, adequate bathrooms and decent food and drink options are for big city types and are too high-falutin' for us simple prairie folk.

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12-14-2012, 09:31 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by DJ EarWax View Post
No, my arguement is that the city itself isn't "tiny" per se. It's not huge, but when I think of tiny, I think of places like Grand prairie, Red Deer, Cardston etc. I don't ever hear or read people stating that Calgary, Ottawa or Buffalo are "tiny", yet they're basically the same size as Edmonton.
As far as market size, I would say the Edmonton market size for hockey is considerably larger than many, if not most NHL cities.
If you had 1 billion people living on the North Pole, does it become the worlds largest air conditioning market? Of course not, market size is relative.
Why would we compare it to Grand Prairie or Red Deer? Do they have 16k stadiums?

Might as well compare the size of Edmonton to Gibbons or Glendon.

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12-14-2012, 09:31 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Calgary, Ottawa and Buffalo are tiny also compared to other major sports markets. However, Calgary will likely be getting a new arena and Ottawa and Buffalo both have fairly new arenas, that leaves Edmonton as the only market in limbo.
I think that Edmonton gets the reputation as tiny because it's the northernmost location so some people view it as some type of outpost.
I think we're past the point where there's any question of Edmonton needing a new arena if we want to keep pro hockey in town, no? The question is just about who pays and how.

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12-14-2012, 09:33 AM
  #649
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Apparently amenities like decent-sized seats and concourses, adequate bathrooms and decent food and drink options are for big city types and are too high-falutin' for us simple prairie folk.
I can't understand why we can't have that now. Although when I see the kid that gets picked up from daycare serving me a slice of pizza, maybe I should put two and two together.

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12-14-2012, 09:47 AM
  #650
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I think we're past the point where there's any question of Edmonton needing a new arena if we want to keep pro hockey in town, no? The question is just about who pays and how.
I'm not so sure. I seem to recall some posters thinking that Edmonton could get away with renovating Rexall and surviving long term based on the Oilers continuing to sell out and the Albertan economy continuing to boom along with the Canadian dollar. Perhaps they have changed their stance (i haven't browsed the Arena thread much until the last couple of days) but i was amazed that some posters were thinking this.

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