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Jordan Staal traded to Carolina for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 8th overall

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Old
12-13-2012, 04:27 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
As in, I'd rather pick a defender out of the OHL than the WHL. Of what I've seen, most defenders in the WHL are farther behind defensively than the defenders of the OHL. Just my opinion though. There's a reason that most games have about 8 or 9 goals scored in the WHL while most OHL games don't go above 6 or 7.

I think your confusing the Qmjhl and the Whl, the WHL has never been considered a high scoring offensive league... ever. And probably never will. Its always been the rough and tumble league of the three, the type of league that you get guys who will go to the trenches so to speak in the playoffs, guys who grind out wins, take and give a lickin to do it - typical farm boy types.

If your analysis of the WHL is that it is an offensive league, I would suggest that you have not watched any significant amount of WHL games.

Now, had you said that above about the Q, I would agree with you. However, the indicating the WHL is an offensive league is so wrong its headscratching - but thats the trend with most of your posts.

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12-13-2012, 04:37 PM
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I think your confusing the Qmjhl and the Whl, the WHL has never been considered a high scoring offensive league... ever. And probably never will. Its always been the rough and tumble league of the three, the type of league that you get guys who will go to the trenches so to speak in the playoffs, guys who grind out wins, take and give a lickin to do it - typical farm boy types.

If your analysis of the WHL is that it is an offensive league, I would suggest that you have not watched any significant amount of WHL games.

Now, had you said that above about the Q, I would agree with you. However, the indicating the WHL is an offensive league is so wrong its headscratching - but thats the trend with most of your posts.
I was comparing the OHL to the WHL. To be fair, I usually only check the scores of Winterhawks games, which they tend to score 5 or so goals a game. And I haven't seen that many WHL games, because they are never on the NHL Network and there aren't any channels that support them. The only team I care about is the Hawks, and they are scoring like 6 goals a game. I guess that inflates the goals per game. I usually only look at the Knights scores, and they usually end up being 3-2 games.

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12-13-2012, 06:23 PM
  #478
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I wish people would quick knocking the Pouliot pick even 6 months after the pick. I remember the complete upheaval that happened when we picked Goligoski. Give it time. Let the kid(s) develop and see where they are in 2-3 years.

If then Grigorenko is potting 40 goal seasons in the NHL, and Pouliot is an AHL regular, then we can all jump off the cliff.

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12-13-2012, 06:24 PM
  #479
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Good to hear about Dumoulin. I don't know a whole lot about him, is he a physical shut down defenseman?.
Yep. He's the closest thing we have to an Orpik replacement (although some who know WBS better than I do might suggest Bortuzzo is), but i get the sense from people's descriptions that he's not just out there trying to hit people like Orpik was when he was young. Plays a very steady game and I believe has more offensive skill than Orpik, so all signs are positive for now.


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12-13-2012, 06:41 PM
  #480
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Great trade, bad pick.
That's about where I'm at.

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12-13-2012, 07:47 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
As in, I'd rather pick a defender out of the OHL than the WHL. Of what I've seen, most defenders in the WHL are farther behind defensively than the defenders of the OHL. Just my opinion though. There's a reason that most games have about 8 or 9 goals scored in the WHL while most OHL games don't go above 6 or 7.

This is an incorrect statement. The WHL is known for being the most competitive and physical of the leagues (also with the most travel), and hence the closest thing to NHL competition; with the OHL not far behind it; and the QMJHL as the league that has been notorious for being more of a high-scoring, looser brand of hockey, though that is continuing to improve and get more well-rounded with time.


Regarding our defensemen: there's something that some people choose not to realize. Yes, we have a lot of bodies on Defense in the pipeline, but not very many that are sure-fire top-2 or top-3 guys. So this perceived log-jam doesn't really exist.


IMO, Shero and the Pens are playing a numbers game and drafting a lot of Dmen, hoping that at least some of whom turn out to be really good players. Trust me: if Despres or Morrow really were can't-miss, blue-chip, top-2 future Dmen and elite prospects, the Pens wouldn't keep drafting or trading for Dmen. What people are seeing is that these guys do have significant holes in their game, and need time to develop to see how good they can be.


Remember how everyone is talking about how poor Despres has played most of the season? Or how Morrow has been very poor at times, as well? While I think the Pens have one of the deepest D-men prospect pools in the league, I do not see a legit #1 guy in that group (and guys like Pouliot, Maatta and Dumoulin may have the best shot), and nobody besides Pouliot who seems like a legit first unit PP QB -- and think this is why the Pens made moves to get those 3 guys (and Ruopp) this summer. And this is why I wouldn't even be upset if the Pens drafted another Dman in the first round this year, if he looked like he could be a legit #1 like Letang.


Anyway, things will shake out in the wash over the next few years, and people who thought a guy like Morrow was NHL ready or can't-miss will have gotten their reality check. Things will get sorted out, the best guys will be kept, and others (like Despres, Strait and Lovejoy) will likely get moved out sooner than later -- and that will create the room for all of these other guys coming into the system.

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12-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #482
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This is an incorrect statement. The WHL is known for being the most competitive and physical of the leagues (also with the most travel), and hence the closest thing to NHL competition; with the OHL not far behind it; and the QMJHL as the league that has been notorious for being more of a high-scoring, looser brand of hockey, though that is continuing to improve and get more well-rounded with time.


Regarding our defensemen: there's something that some people choose not to realize. Yes, we have a lot of bodies on Defense in the pipeline, but not very many that are sure-fire top-2 or top-3 guys. So this perceived log-jam doesn't really exist.


IMO, Shero and the Pens are playing a numbers game and drafting a lot of Dmen, hoping that at least some of whom turn out to be really good players. Trust me: if Despres or Morrow really were can't-miss, blue-chip, top-2 future Dmen and elite prospects, the Pens wouldn't keep drafting or trading for Dmen. What people are seeing is that these guys do have significant holes in their game, and need time to develop to see how good they can be.


Remember how everyone is talking about how poor Despres has played most of the season? Or how Morrow has been very poor at times, as well? While I think the Pens have one of the deepest D-men prospect pools in the league, I do not see a legit #1 guy in that group (and guys like Pouliot, Maatta and Dumoulin may have the best shot), and nobody besides Pouliot who seems like a legit first unit PP QB -- and think this is why the Pens made moves to get those 3 guys (and Ruopp) this summer. And this is why I wouldn't even be upset if the Pens drafted another Dman in the first round this year, if he looked like he could be a legit #1 like Letang.


Anyway, things will shake out in the wash over the next few years, and people who thought a guy like Morrow was NHL ready or can't-miss will have gotten their reality check. Things will get sorted out, the best guys will be kept, and others (like Despres, Strait and Lovejoy) will likely get moved out sooner than later -- and that will create the room for all of these other guys coming into the system.
A. We don't need a legit number-1 D, because we have a guy named Letang. Maybe you've heard of him.
B. What we really need is a legit number-2 D. 4 of our top-6 D prospects have the potential to be a number-2 D (Pouliot and Morrow have an 8.0, which means they have the potential to be either a 1st or 2nd D, and Maatta and Despres have a 7.5, which means they have the potential to be either a 2nd or 3rd D). However, I don't have faith in Pouliot and Morrow as partners for Letang, and everyone here seems to not have much faith in Elmer. Maatta seems like he will only end up as a number 3 D. I can see Dumoulin on the top pair along Letang. I'd actually like that. Dumoulin seems very similar to Orpik. Not only because he plays a pretty similar style, but he also came from the same school.
C. Michalek was a cap dump, don't tell yourself otherwise. Yes, the return was decent, but he was traded to be a dump in salary. If we would have intended on getting anyone back, I think we would have gone after Boedker.
D. Morrow will be a legit 1st unit PP QB, he has all of the tools to do so. I think the logjam at D in the AHL this year has hurt his growth. I think they should send him to the ECHL to get more ice time and get some confidence back.
E. Comparing Strait and Lovejoy to Despres isn't good. Despres has the potential, and is pretty likely to become, a top-4 D, maybe even top-2. The other 2 are depth D.

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12-13-2012, 08:37 PM
  #483
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Anyway, things will shake out in the wash over the next few years, and people who thought a guy like Morrow was NHL ready or can't-miss will have gotten their reality check. Things will get sorted out, the best guys will be kept, and others (like Despres, Strait and Lovejoy) will likely get moved out sooner than later -- and that will create the room for all of these other guys coming into the system.
Once again, for people who put so much stock into how a prospect looks in the A, it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think. Some guys tear up the A, then the NHL. Some guys tear up the A, then do zilch in the NHL. Some guys barely look decent in the A, then their games explode in the NHL.

Despres came to camp last season, got cut early... Then of course the bipolar nature of the board took over... "Omigod he's a bust" "He isn't ready for the NHL for like three yearz!"

Despres went to the A and played like total ****. "Despres is so lost. He looks like hot garbage" "He's looking like a bust!"

Pens hit a bad streak of blueline injuries and Despres came up and looked nothing like the mistake prone spazz he was in the A.

So the reality check is Morrow just has to learn the system and when he gets his chance like Despres did, I have zero doubt he will follow a similar path.

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12-13-2012, 08:55 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
A. We don't need a legit number-1 D, because we have a guy named Letang. Maybe you've heard of him.
B. What we really need is a legit number-2 D. 4 of our top-6 D prospects have the potential to be a number-2 D (Pouliot and Morrow have an 8.0, which means they have the potential to be either a 1st or 2nd D, and Maatta and Despres have a 7.5, which means they have the potential to be either a 2nd or 3rd D). However, I don't have faith in Pouliot and Morrow as partners for Letang, and everyone here seems to not have much faith in Elmer. Maatta seems like he will only end up as a number 3 D. I can see Dumoulin on the top pair along Letang. I'd actually like that. Dumoulin seems very similar to Orpik. Not only because he plays a pretty similar style, but he also came from the same school.
C. Michalek was a cap dump, don't tell yourself otherwise. Yes, the return was decent, but he was traded to be a dump in salary. If we would have intended on getting anyone back, I think we would have gone after Boedker.
D. Morrow will be a legit 1st unit PP QB, he has all of the tools to do so. I think the logjam at D in the AHL this year has hurt his growth. I think they should send him to the ECHL to get more ice time and get some confidence back.
E. Comparing Strait and Lovejoy to Despres isn't good. Despres has the potential, and is pretty likely to become, a top-4 D, maybe even top-2. The other 2 are depth D.
Have you seen Orpik and Dumoulin play? Dumoulin resembles Orpik in his educational facility, but not in their games. Orpik is a hardhitting banger, takes himself out of position to make the big hits and crush guys in the corner. Orpik makes guys coming over the line be more aware of where he is in the d-zone. He's a solid skater, as is Dumoulin, so I guess they compare there. But Dumoulin if he makes the NHL it will be as a more solid defender, who hits but picks his spots alot better than Orpik. He doesn't hit with the same velocity of Orpik, and he won't have the same effect on guys coming over the blueline that have to keep their heads up to be sure they aren't getting run down by Orpik.

Michalek would never have gotten Boedker, we would have had to add significantly to that deal to get Boedker, and even still I don't think Phx is interested in moving him.

- Morrow doesnt belong in the ECHL.

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12-13-2012, 09:25 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by #1GuinFan View Post
Have you seen Orpik and Dumoulin play? Dumoulin resembles Orpik in his educational facility, but not in their games. Orpik is a hardhitting banger, takes himself out of position to make the big hits and crush guys in the corner. Orpik makes guys coming over the line be more aware of where he is in the d-zone. He's a solid skater, as is Dumoulin, so I guess they compare there. But Dumoulin if he makes the NHL it will be as a more solid defender, who hits but picks his spots alot better than Orpik. He doesn't hit with the same velocity of Orpik, and he won't have the same effect on guys coming over the blueline that have to keep their heads up to be sure they aren't getting run down by Orpik.

Michalek would never have gotten Boedker, we would have had to add significantly to that deal to get Boedker, and even still I don't think Phx is interested in moving him.

- Morrow doesnt belong in the ECHL.
Morrow has the skill to be in the AHL, no doubt. But what's the point of playing someone with no confidence right now? When people play nervous, they play worse. It would be much better to send Morrow to the ECHL to regain his footing for like 3 games then call him back up.

No where did I say that Michalek could have gotten Boedker, I said that if the Pens wanted to make a hockey trade and not just make a salary dump, they would have gone after someone like Boedker. I did not say Michalek was worth him, I said that is what they would pursue.

I've heard from numerous people saying that Dumoulin will be the replacement to Orpik, and I can perfectly see why. Dumoulin is only 1 inch and 1 pound larger than Orpik. Both play a physical style, Orpik more so than Dumoulin. Both came from the same university, which is also a university known for making good hockey players. Both are very aware of the play, both in the offensive end and defensive end. Both are skilled defensively as a whole (shot blocking, stick checking, staying in position, all that stuff). I don't see how you wouldn't think that. The only difference is that Dumoulin is better offensively than Orpik and he is a little less gritty. A little, not much.

You tend to have rather aggressive responses. Maybe you should work on that.

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12-13-2012, 10:29 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
Morrow has the skill to be in the AHL, no doubt. But what's the point of playing someone with no confidence right now? When people play nervous, they play worse. It would be much better to send Morrow to the ECHL to regain his footing for like 3 games then call him back up.

No where did I say that Michalek could have gotten Boedker, I said that if the Pens wanted to make a hockey trade and not just make a salary dump, they would have gone after someone like Boedker. I did not say Michalek was worth him, I said that is what they would pursue.

I've heard from numerous people saying that Dumoulin will be the replacement to Orpik, and I can perfectly see why. Dumoulin is only 1 inch and 1 pound larger than Orpik. Both play a physical style, Orpik more so than Dumoulin. Both came from the same university, which is also a university known for making good hockey players. Both are very aware of the play, both in the offensive end and defensive end. Both are skilled defensively as a whole (shot blocking, stick checking, staying in position, all that stuff). I don't see how you wouldn't think that. The only difference is that Dumoulin is better offensively than Orpik and he is a little less gritty. A little, not much.

You tend to have rather aggressive responses. Maybe you should work on that.
Uhh...

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12-13-2012, 10:35 PM
  #487
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Uhh...
...I don't know why you bolded stick checking, perfectly reasonable. I should have put defensive awareness instead of staying in position, but still, they are essentially the same thing. Why did you bold the stick check part?

Oh yeah, I don't think I need to say this, but just to be sure, a stick check is the same thing as a poke check. I really hope that isn't the reason you bolded that.

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12-13-2012, 11:02 PM
  #488
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...I don't know why you bolded stick checking, perfectly reasonable. I should have put defensive awareness instead of staying in position, but still, they are essentially the same thing. Why did you bold the stick check part?

Oh yeah, I don't think I need to say this, but just to be sure, a stick check is the same thing as a poke check. I really hope that isn't the reason you bolded that.
Mostly because the attributes you mentioned have never been strong suits of his, to be honest.

He's a good skater and a prolific hitter, and when he's playing within his limitations those two make up for his lack of innate defensive awareness.

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12-13-2012, 11:06 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
...I don't know why you bolded stick checking, perfectly reasonable. I should have put defensive awareness instead of staying in position, but still, they are essentially the same thing. Why did you bold the stick check part?

Oh yeah, I don't think I need to say this, but just to be sure, a stick check is the same thing as a poke check. I really hope that isn't the reason you bolded that.
Staying in position is the last phrase I'd use to describe Orpik.

#1guinfan hit the nail on the head with the comparison between the two.

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12-13-2012, 11:18 PM
  #490
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Mostly because the attributes you mentioned have never been strong suits of his, to be honest.

He's a good skater and a prolific hitter, and when he's playing within his limitations those two make up for his lack of innate defensive awareness.
Oh, okay, I get what you mean. Dumoulin is just more aware both offensively and defensively, but Orpik can lay out the hits better. That's really the only major difference I see (ignoring skill right now, obviously). It's not like they are carbon copies, but I can fully understand why some people are saying Dumoulin will be the next Orpik.

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12-13-2012, 11:33 PM
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Oh, okay, I get what you mean. Dumoulin is just more aware both offensively and defensively, but Orpik can lay out the hits better. That's really the only major difference I see (ignoring skill right now, obviously). It's not like they are carbon copies, but I can fully understand why some people are saying Dumoulin will be the next Orpik.
these posts are starting to make my head hurt, you flip flop about what your saying more than a fish out of water.

Orpik and Dumoulin are not the same player, they just don't compare. they come from the same school yes, but that doesn't mean they'll become the same type of player, or a player at all. Send you, me, and every other poster in this thread to a culinary school, doesn't mean we'll all become chefs, or the safe type of chefs. Some might work at McD's or Subway, while others ply their trade with the likes of Gordon Ramsey at top restaurants. Weird analogy I know, but it works. I hope that doesn't come across as too aggressive for you.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but your posts seem to reflect alot of opinion that has little to no viewing and is more based on general assumptions or suggestions with little substance. I see that your new to the board, and perhaps new to player/game/team assessment. That is a learned ability for sure, something that can be picked up from the numerous long term posters here, and by watching players on different occasions and in different scenarios/situations. Call it a learning curve if you might, we all go through it. If something isnt known, ask away, just avoid making generalizations without concrete knowledge/evidence to support what is being said. It reminds me of a certain Luca Caputi lovefest that happened some years ago... Ask around about that, there are many people here that should remember it.

And my apologies if my posts are aggressive.

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12-14-2012, 01:08 AM
  #492
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2946 - calling Orpik a good solid positional defensive defenseman draws every other word you have typed here into grave doubt. Honestly, it really makes you look out to lunch on the Penguins, and Hockey in general.

I have a suggestion for you. It's something lots of folks like myself do when they are new to a community of educated knowledgable posters such as this one.

Try lurking for a while. It will help increase your knowledge a lot, given the many great posters here.

At this point in your HF posting career, it's probably the best for everyone.

With that said, I have to admit enjoing the extended dialog you have kicked up on something unrelated to the Lockout.

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12-14-2012, 04:49 AM
  #493
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Since its a lockout ive watched a large amount of WBS hockey this season. And while Dumoulin might be orpiks replacement in the lineup, hes not at all playing the same style of hockey.

I havent seen Dumoulin make, or even try to make an "Orpik hit" yet. As posters before me said, Dumoulin plays a much smarter more positionally sound game than orpik.
Hes closer to a Scuderi in defensive style imo. Then ofc he has the tools to become twice the 2-way player than Scuderi ever will. He has a good breakout pass and could be on a 2nd PP unit down the road for the pens imo.

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12-14-2012, 06:10 AM
  #494
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Calling Orpik a good solid positional defensive defenseman draws every other word you have typed here into grave doubt.
That is completely matter of opinion. In my opinion, if someone goes out of their way to make a hit then gets back in position, I view that as good positioning. That's completely opinionated. And I was trying to make a familiar comparison for Dumoulin. My original was Seabrook, but some people may not of known him. I used Orpik because he will probably be taking Orpik's spot if/when he leaves. I doubt the Pens would let him go, but he's slowly getting worse. We don't see any more free candy from him.

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12-14-2012, 07:41 AM
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That is completely matter of opinion. In my opinion, if someone goes out of their way to make a hit then gets back in position, I view that as good positioning. That's completely opinionated. And I was trying to make a familiar comparison for Dumoulin. My original was Seabrook, but some people may not of known him. I used Orpik because he will probably be taking Orpik's spot if/when he leaves. I doubt the Pens would let him go, but he's slowly getting worse. We don't see any more free candy from him.
Orpik's best hockey, in my opinion, was from 07-08 to 08-09. Even in those years, he was not the most sound positionally. Following a man to the boards, above the circles, to make a hit, is not sound. There's no getting back in position when you're destroying someone at the boards, but the goalscorer is firing from the slot.

But as noted, he was effective in other ways. I'm sure he was one of the defenders driving Therrien nuts.

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12-14-2012, 07:42 AM
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That is completely matter of opinion. In my opinion, if someone goes out of their way to make a hit then gets back in position, I view that as good positioning. That's completely opinionated. And I was trying to make a familiar comparison for Dumoulin. My original was Seabrook, but some people may not of known him. I used Orpik because he will probably be taking Orpik's spot if/when he leaves. I doubt the Pens would let him go, but he's slowly getting worse. We don't see any more free candy from him.
but Orpik doesn't do a good job of getting back into position. Orpik uses hits to be more of a momentum/game changer of a defensive D than he is a stable defensive force back there. He's certainly not a Scuderi type. Orpik's the kind of guy that you will always notice his best plays and his worst plays and they will have a big impact on the game.

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12-14-2012, 08:13 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Great trade, bad pick.
I'm still going to wait and give the kid a chance to prove himself before hammering Shero on this pick, yes I wanted and would have preferred Forsberg but i'll give Derrick a shot

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12-14-2012, 08:22 AM
  #498
Captain Hook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
I'm still going to wait and give the kid a chance to prove himself before hammering Shero on this pick, yes I wanted and would have preferred Forsberg but i'll give Derrick a shot
That's exactly how people should go about this imo. There's no need to rush to judgment. We'll find out soon enough if this was a good pick or not. Right now nobody knows.

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12-14-2012, 08:25 AM
  #499
Milliardo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
I'm still going to wait and give the kid a chance to prove himself before hammering Shero on this pick, yes I wanted and would have preferred Forsberg but i'll give Derrick a shot
How anyone can claim it to be a bad pick without having extensively watched Pouliot and Forsberg (for example) is beyond me. I can understand the Tangradi discussios because he was drafted 5 1/2 years ago, but FFS, give it some time with Pouliot. Should he bust, people will be to exhausted to bash im 3 years from now.

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12-14-2012, 08:28 AM
  #500
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I'm not worried about it.

If fans can rationalize (and even fully endorse) taking Staal where the Penguins did... they'll eventually set aside their better judgement and do the same with this pick, as well.

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