HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

More Luongo Talk

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-14-2012, 06:12 AM
  #201
Kesler is Bestler
Registered User
 
Kesler is Bestler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 50
Good god, 6 months later and its still the same arguments being rehashed over and over again.

Kesler is Bestler is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 06:24 AM
  #202
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
No argument or sarcasm....are you saying you've heard rumours about Burke's job? I ask because i have heard nothing.


I've read rumours to that effect. I've also heard it mentioned in the mainstream media from time to time, as speculation. Personally, the writing is on the wall IMO. 5 failed seasons out of 5 years, especially when choosing not to follow a traditional rebuild strategy, will be pretty hard to justify with new management. They perhaps want their own guy as well.



Quote:
My point before was i find it odd that most keep saying "if Burke won't payup...we'll just trade him to FLA". I guess i'm just wondering why it is assumed that FLA will trade for him. I get they had a meeting, but it seems most of the FLA talk stopped after that. It is possible that Tallon explained to Luongo that the direction they are taking with the team doesn't include him.


Tallon also said he's waiting for Gillis to phone him... For Tallon to even go to his own management to clear the contract, go ahead with the in person meeting, and even begin to talk shop when he has Markstrom in the pipeline, tells me what I need to know of his interest = it's there. Without a doubt. The level? Unsure. Time will tell. But he has in no way closed the door IMO.


Also, to the point of "direction". I doubt Tallon is foolish enough to think this. Any time a team's direction does not include adding an elite talent, at any position, they need to re-evaluate _fast_. It's not logical.


Finally, the FLA talk recently has died down because of the CBA and the two latest rumours involving EDM and TO. Their need also isn't as great as the two teams either, so there's no incentive to increase their offer, yet. Not until they start losing games. Which is why some VAN fans want Gillis to carry Luongo into the season, at least for 10 games, when team interest will become apparent. Who knows? Maybe at that time Tallon has a change of heart...

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 06:37 AM
  #203
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I've read rumours to that effect. I've also heard it mentioned in the mainstream media from time to time, as speculation. Personally, the writing is on the wall IMO. 5 failed seasons out of 5 years, especially when choosing not to follow a traditional rebuild strategy, will be pretty hard to justify with new management. They perhaps want their own guy as well.







Tallon also said he's waiting for Gillis to phone him... For Tallon to even go to his own management to clear the contract, go ahead with the in person meeting, and even begin to talk shop when he has Markstrom in the pipeline, tells me what I need to know of his interest = it's there. Without a doubt. The level? Unsure. Time will tell. But he has in no way closed the door IMO.


Also, to the point of "direction". I doubt Tallon is foolish enough to think this. Any time a team's direction does not include adding an elite talent, at any position, they need to re-evaluate _fast_. It's not logical.


Finally, the FLA talk recently has died down because of the CBA and the two latest rumours involving EDM and TO. Their need also isn't as great as the two teams either, so there's no incentive to increase their offer, yet. Not until they start losing games. Which is why some VAN fans want Gillis to carry Luongo into the season, at least for 10 games, when team interest will become apparent. Who knows? Maybe at that time Tallon has a change of heart...
If Tallon is interested, Gillis is going to have to come way down in price imo, trying to sell a player to a team that really doesn't need him is going to change the pricetag.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 06:46 AM
  #204
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If Tallon is interested, Gillis is going to have to come way down in price imo, trying to sell a player to a team that really doesn't need him is going to change the pricetag.


The "need" will become apparent as the year progresses and Tallon gets an understanding of how CAR, WPG, WSH and TBay are doing. CAR and TBay I have to believe will be better. WPG should have made the playoffs last year. So there's some tight competition there. Let's see how much faith Tallon really has.



As an aside, LeBrun has maintained that Tallon has interest. In multiple interviews on the Team1040, even in the late summer.


Edit: Here's his viewpoint from early June: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/story/?i...hl-maple_leafs

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 06:58 AM
  #205
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The "need" will become apparent as the year progresses and Tallon gets an understanding of how CAR, WPG, WSH and TBay are doing. CAR and TBay I have to believe will be better. WPG should have made the playoffs last year. So there's some tight competition there. Let's see how much faith Tallon really has.



As an aside, LeBrun has maintained that Tallon has interest. In multiple interviews on the Team1040, even in the late summer.


Edit: Here's his viewpoint from early June: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/story/?i...hl-maple_leafs
I'm not arguing interest...the proof is there. I'm just wondering, if we use Gillis initial demand to TO as a template...what would he expect from FLA? And more importantly...does Tallon consider it.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 07:21 AM
  #206
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'm not arguing interest...the proof is there. I'm just wondering, if we use Gillis initial demand to TO as a template...what would he expect from FLA? And more importantly...does Tallon consider it.


It all depends on how each party views Bjugstad. If he is viewed as a genuine blue chipper, then he alone is greater than any one piece in the TO demand. He trumps all. A 6'6" two-way C that has top6 upside is a rare commodity indeed. So at that point, it's what other secondary/tertiary pieces come back from FLA to balance it out, if at all.



The perception of Bozak and Frattin will also factor in. If they are viewed as marginal adds, then the real value comes in the form of Gardiner + 1st. Does Petrovic + 1st equal that to a team that isn't really looking for the Dman to immediately replace a player on its roster? Maybe. And if Shore gets thrown in, then that's pretty comparable I should think. It all comes down to Gillis' and Tallon's perception of Gardiner, and how the FLA prospects stack up by comparison IMO.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 07:42 AM
  #207
LEAFANFORLIFE23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I've read rumours to that effect. I've also heard it mentioned in the mainstream media from time to time, as speculation. Personally, the writing is on the wall IMO. 5 failed seasons out of 5 years, especially when choosing not to follow a traditional rebuild strategy, will be pretty hard to justify with new management. They perhaps want their own guy as well.







Tallon also said he's waiting for Gillis to phone him... For Tallon to even go to his own management to clear the contract, go ahead with the in person meeting, and even begin to talk shop when he has Markstrom in the pipeline, tells me what I need to know of his interest = it's there. Without a doubt. The level? Unsure. Time will tell. But he has in no way closed the door IMO.


Also, to the point of "direction". I doubt Tallon is foolish enough to think this. Any time a team's direction does not include adding an elite talent, at any position, they need to re-evaluate _fast_. It's not logical.


Finally, the FLA talk recently has died down because of the CBA and the two latest rumours involving EDM and TO. Their need also isn't as great as the two teams either, so there's no incentive to increase their offer, yet. Not until they start losing games. Which is why some VAN fans want Gillis to carry Luongo into the season, at least for 10 games, when team interest will become apparent. Who knows? Maybe at that time Tallon has a change of heart...
I think burke is safe right now and there are a couple reasons for that.

1 While I admit that burkes tenure has had it's share of rough patches I'd like to point out that MLSE gave the raptors GM a 2 year extension and his results haven't been much better. I see no reason to extend 1 and not the other.

2 Brian burke gave the coach a long term deal generally if your job is in danger that doesn't happen .

3. It took a LONG time but I see a team that is now just a couple peices away from being very good they went from old and slow to young and fast if burke adds luongo as many suspect he will this team if it can maintain the top 10 offense it had last year will win a lot of games.

4. The Leafs have millions coming off the cap at seasons end and that is WITH luongo .
Burke has the Leafs in a very strong cap position IMO he will get the chance to use that money

LEAFANFORLIFE23 is online now  
Old
12-14-2012, 08:15 AM
  #208
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
I think burke is safe right now and there are a couple reasons for that.

1 While I admit that burkes tenure has had it's share of rough patches I'd like to point out that MLSE gave the raptors GM a 2 year extension and his results haven't been much better. I see no reason to extend 1 and not the other.

2 Brian burke gave the coach a long term deal generally if your job is in danger that doesn't happen .

3. It took a LONG time but I see a team that is now just a couple peices away from being very good they went from old and slow to young and fast if burke adds luongo as many suspect he will this team if it can maintain the top 10 offense it had last year will win a lot of games.

4. The Leafs have millions coming off the cap at seasons end and that is WITH luongo .
Burke has the Leafs in a very strong cap position IMO he will get the chance to use that money



1. Extending one GM only to find out it was a mistake is every reason to resist extending the other. Unless it doesn't matter if a GM passes/fails to MLSE? In which case Burke has a lifetime job as TO's GM - We all know better.


2. Irrelevant. Burke also didn't fire Wilson until well past his due date. He can only operate his business as a "going concern" because that's what he should be doing. The firing is out of his hands, so to speak.


3. Agreed, but that's _if_ they get Luongo and make that push.


4. Nonis had millions coming off the books before he was canned here in VAN. Many people, including myself, were incensed. He was just about to put his stamp on the team and he was shown the door for a complete unknown. Losing meant his job wasn't safe - It's the same here.





In the end, if TO turns in another non-playoff season and Burke is not fired, I would be shocked. 5 failures in 5 years and he retains perhaps the best GMing post in the NHL - it just doesn't add up.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:01 AM
  #209
TOGuy14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
1. Extending one GM only to find out it was a mistake is every reason to resist extending the other. Unless it doesn't matter if a GM passes/fails to MLSE? In which case Burke has a lifetime job as TO's GM - We all know better.


2. Irrelevant. Burke also didn't fire Wilson until well past his due date. He can only operate his business as a "going concern" because that's what he should be doing. The firing is out of his hands, so to speak.


3. Agreed, but that's _if_ they get Luongo and make that push.


4. Nonis had millions coming off the books before he was canned here in VAN. Many people, including myself, were incensed. He was just about to put his stamp on the team and he was shown the door for a complete unknown. Losing meant his job wasn't safe - It's the same here.





In the end, if TO turns in another non-playoff season and Burke is not fired, I would be shocked. 5 failures in 5 years and he retains perhaps the best GMing post in the NHL - it just doesn't add up.
I have just read your past couple pages of "analysis" on various teams that NEED Luongo and I have to say I don't think I have disagreed with one poster more in my life

Burke's four years of "failure"? Seriously, look at the roster he inherited, there wasn't a SINGLE decent piece on it. Really, LOOK AT IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2...e_Leafs_season

The top three scorers on our team were Jason Blake, Poni, and Matt Stajan. The pipe of prospects was completely bare, and we had not a single superstar on the team.

Since that time we have acquired legitimate NHL talent all over the ice (Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Lupul, Gardiner etc). We have top 10 scoring players on the team again (would have had two if not for Lupul's injury). Our farm team is for the first time in my lifetime actually decent and producing solid players.

If the NHL was like a car race, everyone else was already going around the track while Brian Burke had to make a dead start from 0 km/h. If he doesn't make the playoffs this year, should there start to be some heat? Maybe, but anything in the past four years I consider that building a foundation not a failure. I do fault him for keeping Wilson, not the coach we needed at the time with the roster we were running, but that's about it.

As for "traditional" rebuilds, Edmonton has been doing the traditional rebuild now since we started ours and they aren't any farther ahead of us, so it isn't like getting 1st overall draft picks in four years is a defined route back to the playoffs...

TOGuy14 is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #210
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I have just read your past couple pages of "analysis" on various teams that NEED Luongo and I have to say I don't think I have disagreed with one poster more in my life

Burke's four years of "failure"? Seriously, look at the roster he inherited, there wasn't a SINGLE decent piece on it. Really, LOOK AT IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2...e_Leafs_season

The top three scorers on our team were Jason Blake, Poni, and Matt Stajan. The pipe of prospects was completely bare, and we had not a single superstar on the team.

Since that time we have acquired legitimate NHL talent all over the ice (Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Lupul, Gardiner etc). We have top 10 scoring players on the team again (would have had two if not for Lupul's injury). Our farm team is for the first time in my lifetime actually decent and producing solid players.

If the NHL was like a car race, everyone else was already going around the track while Brian Burke had to make a dead start from 0 km/h. If he doesn't make the playoffs this year, should there start to be some heat? Maybe, but anything in the past four years I consider that building a foundation not a failure. I do fault him for keeping Wilson, not the coach we needed at the time with the roster we were running, but that's about it.

As for "traditional" rebuilds, Edmonton has been doing the traditional rebuild now since we started ours and they aren't any farther ahead of us, so it isn't like getting 1st overall draft picks in four years is a defined route back to the playoffs...
On this post i agree (well excepet the EDM part...they are going to be good). It's easy
to say "no playoffs...fire Burke!!!" from an outside view. You need to look at everything before one can judge...both good and bad.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:20 AM
  #211
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Here is my fresh take on the Luongo scenario. The season gets killed (i firmly believe..and almost hope it happens at this point). Theodore is then UFA, FLA trades for Luongo for what i don't know and quite frankly don't care....and everybody is happy.

Done.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:44 AM
  #212
ACC1224
Steelers 1 - 1
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I doubt it. Why would a team agree to a trade when that team has no idea what cap implications, and contractual issues can arise, as well as the abscence of a new CBA.
Of course. It's why all the speculated offers Burke has made(Schenn/Kulemin/etc.) is nonsense or wishful thinking.

ACC1224 is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:46 AM
  #213
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Of course. It's why all the speculated offers Burke has made(Schenn/Kulemin/etc.) is nonsense or wishful thinking.
This one was real.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:47 AM
  #214
Coolburn
Registered User
 
Coolburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: South Florida
Country: Hungary
Posts: 7,762
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Coolburn Send a message via MSN to Coolburn Send a message via Yahoo to Coolburn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The "need" will become apparent as the year progresses and Tallon gets an understanding of how CAR, WPG, WSH and TBay are doing. CAR and TBay I have to believe will be better. WPG should have made the playoffs last year. So there's some tight competition there. Let's see how much faith Tallon really has.



As an aside, LeBrun has maintained that Tallon has interest. In multiple interviews on the Team1040, even in the late summer.


Edit: Here's his viewpoint from early June: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/story/?i...hl-maple_leafs
You should re-read the article you quote though because it has one nugget that would cause Gillis to not want to deal with the Panthers (bolded for everyone):
Quote:
I believe the Florida Panthers are a team to keep an eye on. I think they are very interested in Roberto Luongo, but they're a small payroll team, and it's only going to happen if they can send some money the other way
I can tell you for certain (because I work for the Panthers general partner, but not the Panthers) and I asked him when I first started working for him back at the beginning of August, Tallon did not ask to get approval to trade for Luongo (which he would need to absorb the salary). From what I gathered too, there was not a serious interest from Florida but more just doing their due diligence to see if it would make sense. So unless Gillis accepts a deal with Upshall/Kopecky being included, then Florida probably no longer is an option/negotiating tool. And then if they are including a roster player like that, I dont see them giving up lots of additional value to match what other potential teams would offer (maybe it would be a 1st rounder and one of those players and a marginal prospect like McFarland).

Also, while the Panthers would like to keep making the playoffs and pushing forward, I doubt Tallon is willing to sacrifice a lot in terms of talent to acquire a veteran goalie with Markstrom waiting in the wings. Even if they see the other teams in the division excel and the Panthers struggle, I dont think he makes a big acquisition at goalie (maybe he looks at a goalie from St Louis). He's (Markstrom) close enough and there are plenty of stopgap options for Tallon that Luongo would be a luxury, not a need. Whether you want to agree or not, I just dont see him parting with any of his top 5 prospects (Huberdeau, Markstrom, Bjugstad, Petrovic & Howden) for Luongo.


Last edited by Coolburn: 12-14-2012 at 09:52 AM.
Coolburn is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:49 AM
  #215
ACC1224
Steelers 1 - 1
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
This one was real.
I don't recall ever hearing about it on the Leaf board.

How do you know for certain?

Can't see Burke making any offer without knowing what the CBA will look like.

ACC1224 is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 09:57 AM
  #216
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I don't recall ever hearing about it on the Leaf board.

How do you know for certain?
Can't see Burke making any offer without knowing what the CBA will look like.
I get in trouble for saying it as i can't post a link, but because of my father's former employment with MLSE i still talk to alot of people there.

I think Burke and most the other GM's have a very good idea what the CBA is going to look like. All of the posturing being done by both sides will just get us to a point that was eventual anyways.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 10:03 AM
  #217
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
You should re-read the article you quote though because it has one nugget that would cause Gillis to not want to deal with the Panthers (bolded for everyone):I can tell you for certain (because I work for the Panthers general partner, but not the Panthers) and I asked him when I first started working for him back at the beginning of August, Tallon did not ask to get approval to trade for Luongo (which he would need to absorb the salary). From what I gathered too, there was not a serious interest from Florida but more just doing their due diligence to see if it would make sense. So unless Gillis accepts a deal with Upshall/Kopecky being included, then Florida probably no longer is an option/negotiating tool. And then if they are including a roster player like that, I dont see them giving up lots of additional value to match what other potential teams would offer (maybe it would be a 1st rounder and one of those players and a marginal prospect like McFarland).

Also, while the Panthers would like to keep making the playoffs and pushing forward, I doubt Tallon is willing to sacrifice a lot in terms of talent to acquire a veteran goalie with Markstrom waiting in the wings. Even if they see the other teams in the division excel and the Panthers struggle, I dont think he makes a big acquisition at goalie (maybe he looks at a goalie from St Louis). He's (Markstrom) close enough and there are plenty of stopgap options for Tallon that Luongo would be a luxury, not a need. Whether you want to agree or not, I just dont see him parting with any of his top 5 prospects (Huberdeau, Markstrom, Bjugstad, Petrovic & Howden) for Luongo.
Good to see some input from other fanbases.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #218
Coolburn
Registered User
 
Coolburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: South Florida
Country: Hungary
Posts: 7,762
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Coolburn Send a message via MSN to Coolburn Send a message via Yahoo to Coolburn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Good to see some input from other fanbases.
Thanks, honestly I think your suggestion of Bozak, Kadri & a 2nd is a better offer than FL would make. If you take that as a basis (roster player, prospect & 2nd), the Panthers equivalent (or at least what I could see them being willing to do) would be Kopecky, Shore & 2nd. That deal from Toronto makes more sense.

Coolburn is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #219
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I have just read your past couple pages of "analysis" on various teams that NEED Luongo and I have to say I don't think I have disagreed with one poster more in my life

Burke's four years of "failure"? Seriously, look at the roster he inherited, there wasn't a SINGLE decent piece on it. Really, LOOK AT IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2...e_Leafs_season

The top three scorers on our team were Jason Blake, Poni, and Matt Stajan. The pipe of prospects was completely bare, and we had not a single superstar on the team.



Which would have been the perfect time for Burke to do the slow build, except he jumped the gun and went after Kessel. There was no traditional rebuild in TO and that's on Burke. He thought he could speed up the process. So far, so wrong. I believe this last year matches his worst finish?



You can disagree, and I would expect no less. But if a manager is looking at improvement in results, are there any to be had here? Anything tangible? If they miss the playoffs again, how does he still "sell" his vision in any way that isn't subjective?



He's not even following his motif of "truculence and pugnacity" etc... when building his team. Is there a direction? Other than moving lesser parts for greater parts (which every GM tries to do in some fashion)? There is no plan.



Quote:
Since that time we have acquired legitimate NHL talent all over the ice (Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Lupul, Gardiner etc). We have top 10 scoring players on the team again (would have had two if not for Lupul's injury). Our farm team is for the first time in my lifetime actually decent and producing solid players.

If the NHL was like a car race, everyone else was already going around the track while Brian Burke had to make a dead start from 0 km/h. If he doesn't make the playoffs this year, should there start to be some heat? Maybe, but anything in the past four years I consider that building a foundation not a failure. I do fault him for keeping Wilson, not the coach we needed at the time with the roster we were running, but that's about it.

As for "traditional" rebuilds, Edmonton has been doing the traditional rebuild now since we started ours and they aren't any farther ahead of us, so it isn't like getting 1st overall draft picks in four years is a defined route back to the playoffs...



EDM is ahead, no question about it. Prime talent is being accumulated there. Now they've added Yakupov and Shultz, who will grow with the others. It's scary what kind of talent they have. If we are talking subjectively, EDM has infused much better skilled talent in their organization than TO has, and it's only a matter of time before it comes together. I'd much rather be in their position moving forward.



Few saw Burke as a traditional builder even before he got to TO. He was known more for his ability to re-tool. Some questioned the hire for this reason right when it was made.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 10:47 AM
  #220
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
You should re-read the article you quote though because it has one nugget that would cause Gillis to not want to deal with the Panthers (bolded for everyone):


I've read it, and pay it little mind. If the need changes as the season progresses, the stance of both GMs will change somewhat to accommodate the difference. That may mean MG takes on salary, or it may mean Tallon stops insisting. Only time will tell.



Quote:
I can tell you for certain (because I work for the Panthers general partner, but not the Panthers) and I asked him when I first started working for him back at the beginning of August, Tallon did not ask to get approval to trade for Luongo (which he would need to absorb the salary). From what I gathered too, there was not a serious interest from Florida but more just doing their due diligence to see if it would make sense. So unless Gillis accepts a deal with Upshall/Kopecky being included, then Florida probably no longer is an option/negotiating tool. And then if they are including a roster player like that, I dont see them giving up lots of additional value to match what other potential teams would offer (maybe it would be a 1st rounder and one of those players and a marginal prospect like McFarland).



I've read you post this before actually. I'm unsure that if at the time you posted this, that if you were questioned on the following: Is the general partner privy to _all_ such asks by Tallon? All such financial issues I mean? In other words, before Flieshmann received his 4m+ contract, was that cleared by the general partner you work for? Or Jovo's contract and so on?



The interest bit is known and debated. Would Tallon tell you, the general partner, of his interest in any player? If so, what is his interest in Mason Raymond? Because there was a rumour that he was asked about at the time of the Samuelsson/Booth deal.




Quote:
Also, while the Panthers would like to keep making the playoffs and pushing forward, I doubt Tallon is willing to sacrifice a lot in terms of talent to acquire a veteran goalie with Markstrom waiting in the wings. Even if they see the other teams in the division excel and the Panthers struggle, I dont think he makes a big acquisition at goalie (maybe he looks at a goalie from St Louis). He's (Markstrom) close enough and there are plenty of stopgap options for Tallon that Luongo would be a luxury, not a need. Whether you want to agree or not, I just dont see him parting with any of his top 5 prospects (Huberdeau, Markstrom, Bjugstad, Petrovic & Howden) for Luongo.


Is this supposition on your part or information leaked to the general partner?



Also, what makes you believe Markstrom is "close enough"?



If it is your perception, then I agree that right now, Luongo is more a luxury than a need. In fact, every team is flawless in the offseason. But when the games actually matter, I'm expecting some teams to change their level of interest in certain players, not just Luongo. Thomas is still out there. And the fate of Iginla and Kipper in CGY could be up in the air. There remains a lot of time to figure this all out. I guess we have to wait and see.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:40 AM
  #221
DJOpus
Registered User
 
DJOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesler is Bestler View Post
Good god, 6 months later and its still the same arguments being rehashed over and over again.
Its basically awesome... We're back in phase 1... Every month or two the same conclusion or similar is reached then someone says something and restarts the whole thing.

It's like the Matrix.

DJOpus is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:44 AM
  #222
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,432
vCash: 5555
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Its basically awesome... We're back in phase 1... Every month or two the same conclusion or similar is reached then someone says something and restarts the whole thing.

It's like the Matrix.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:50 AM
  #223
Coolburn
Registered User
 
Coolburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: South Florida
Country: Hungary
Posts: 7,762
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Coolburn Send a message via MSN to Coolburn Send a message via Yahoo to Coolburn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I've read it, and pay it little mind. If the need changes as the season progresses, the stance of both GMs will change somewhat to accommodate the difference. That may mean MG takes on salary, or it may mean Tallon stops insisting. Only time will tell.
Personally, the only way I see the need changing would be that if Markstrom suffers a career-ending injury. Even if the season goes downhill for the Panthers (Theodore craps the bed, Clemmensen cant pick up the slack, all teams in the division exceed expectations, etc), I just dont think Tallon would be making a move on a goalie signed long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I've read you post this before actually. I'm unsure that if at the time you posted this, that if you were questioned on the following: Is the general partner privy to _all_ such asks by Tallon? All such financial issues I mean? In other words, before Flieshmann received his 4m+ contract, was that cleared by the general partner you work for? Or Jovo's contract and so on?
Well no he's not privy to ALL talks by Tallon. But when a deal is agreed to in principal, then yes Tallon would go to Cliff Viner and ask for approval. He had to do that to make the trade of Brian Campbell (that has already been confirmed).

And I can tell you for sure that yes Viner is involved in knowing the group of players available at certain price levels. I know he had a meeting this past summer with Tallon & others in the hockey dept about what players could be had at different amounts. During that meeting, it was obvious that a guy like Parise was out of their price range but he was brought up as a name. He knew about the signing of Mueller and even said how excited he is to have him with the team. Viner is basically the equivalent of Aquilli for the Canucks just as an FYI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The interest bit is known and debated. Would Tallon tell you, the general partner, of his interest in any player? If so, what is his interest in Mason Raymond? Because there was a rumour that he was asked about at the time of the Samuelsson/Booth deal.
No I think, like I said above, that Tallon would only go to the general partner (Viner) once he had a deal agreed to. I wasnt around when the Samuelsson/Booth deal went down so I cant comment or speculate there if Viner was asked about that deal and any interest in Raymond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Is this supposition on your part or information leaked to the general partner?
Based on comments by Tallon at several times, both in the media and directly to season ticket holders. He just re-iterated how important Markstrom was to the future of the team in a townhall meeting at the beginning of the month. So yes mostly supposition on my part than any inside info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Also, what makes you believe Markstrom is "close enough"?
Just won AHL player of the week, the org has stated multiple times that he's about 1-2 yrs away from being in the NHL and I've seen him at the NHL level up close (my season tickets were on the end where he faced most of his shots).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If it is your perception, then I agree that right now, Luongo is more a luxury than a need. In fact, every team is flawless in the offseason. But when the games actually matter, I'm expecting some teams to change their level of interest in certain players, not just Luongo. Thomas is still out there. And the fate of Iginla and Kipper in CGY could be up in the air. There remains a lot of time to figure this all out. I guess we have to wait and see.
Yes its perception and while the games havent been played yet, everyone in the org has been preaching patience this time when Tallon was hired. They know that they are ahead of the curve in terms of rebuilding but it was a 5 yr plan all the time. They are only 3 yrs into that plan so they arent rushing to make a big move just yet.

There are options beyond just the names you mentioned too that could give the Panthers help if the need arises before Markstrom is ready to be the starter. I'd consider a guy like Halak or Elliot from the Blues. Halak is a good target since he's signed for only 2 more yrs with a cap hit at $3.75M and Elliot also is signed for 2 yrs but even cheaper. Panthers tried having an expensive goalie before (Vokoun) and it really didnt work for them so I have a hard time believing that's the direction they go.

Coolburn is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 11:57 AM
  #224
BlueBaron
Registered User
 
BlueBaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, On
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
Florida has no state income tax. Florida has no press to speak of. Florida is where the Missus lives. Florida has no starting goalies in the entire state. Luongo has asked to go there.

Why is a Canadian team even being discussed?

The real question to be answered is which Eastern contender needs a goalie to stay in contention? What will they pay? Does their offer fill holes on the Vancouver roster? What is the state tax, there?
For the 10 millionth time. No market provides more endorsement opportunity than Toronto. When Clark was traded to Quebec he lamented he lost 6 million in endorsements because of the move, which was more than his salery. That was in the early 90s. Someone like Luongo would also easily make more than his salery in this market so his earning potential here is greater than anywhere else in the world. So that is a pretty bad argument.

Florida would also argue they do not have a need for goalie. While no one will deny Luongo would be an improvement their current tandum got them to the playoffs last year. Markstrom is also not far away. I suspect they are more worried about other positions.

BlueBaron is offline  
Old
12-14-2012, 12:20 PM
  #225
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Personally, the only way I see the need changing would be that if Markstrom suffers a career-ending injury. Even if the season goes downhill for the Panthers (Theodore craps the bed, Clemmensen cant pick up the slack, all teams in the division exceed expectations, etc), I just dont think Tallon would be making a move on a goalie signed long term.


Even if said goalie would perhaps become his team's best player? I'm not so sure. Wins are what matter - to every GM. If Tallon feels that he can get Luongo without breaking the bank, it would be prudent for him to stay in the hunt. Whether he is able to get him or not is another story.



Markstrom is anything but a sure bet at this point. He's had two knee surgeries, and before picking it up recently, was abysmal to start the year. Jury is still out here.




Quote:
Well no he's not privy to ALL talks by Tallon. But when a deal is agreed to in principal, then yes Tallon would go to Cliff Viner and ask for approval. He had to do that to make the trade of Brian Campbell (that has already been confirmed).



"When a deal is agreed to"... Meaning, if a deal is not agreed to, he would have no reason to go to Cliff Viner?




Quote:
And I can tell you for sure that yes Viner is involved in knowing the group of players available at certain price levels. I know he had a meeting this past summer with Tallon & others in the hockey dept about what players could be had at different amounts. During that meeting, it was obvious that a guy like Parise was out of their price range but he was brought up as a name. He knew about the signing of Mueller and even said how excited he is to have him with the team. Viner is basically the equivalent of Aquilli for the Canucks just as an FYI. No I think, like I said above, that Tallon would only go to the general partner (Viner) once he had a deal agreed to. I wasnt around when the Samuelsson/Booth deal went down so I cant comment or speculate there if Viner was asked about that deal and any interest in Raymond.


So the general partner you work for is Cliff Viner, the owner of the panthers? (That's what Aqua is to VAN). And _now_ you would normally be privy to all information that passes on potential deals through that connection? Just trying to get a sense of where you fit in the chain, and why you would hear select information about one thing and have no information about another.




Quote:
Based on comments by Tallon at several times, both in the media and directly to season ticket holders. He just re-iterated how important Markstrom was to the future of the team in a townhall meeting at the beginning of the month. So yes mostly supposition on my part than any inside info.Just won AHL player of the week, the org has stated multiple times that he's about 1-2 yrs away from being in the NHL and I've seen him at the NHL level up close (my season tickets were on the end where he faced most of his shots).
Yes its perception and while the games havent been played yet, everyone in the org has been preaching patience this time when Tallon was hired. They know that they are ahead of the curve in terms of rebuilding but it was a 5 yr plan all the time. They are only 3 yrs into that plan so they arent rushing to make a big move just yet.



Of course. I'm not dogging Markstrom, only saying that the position itself is fickle. There are a lot of high hopes here for Schneider here as well, but no one really knows if he's going to take the ball and run with it, or if he will struggle. Luongo's year to year consistency was all the more important as a result. Which is why it sucks to lose him.



Now, Markstrom may keep it going, but judging by the way he started, to what he has done now, I prefer to just wait and see if he stays consistent.




Quote:
There are options beyond just the names you mentioned too that could give the Panthers help if the need arises before Markstrom is ready to be the starter. I'd consider a guy like Halak or Elliot from the Blues. Halak is a good target since he's signed for only 2 more yrs with a cap hit at $3.75M and Elliot also is signed for 2 yrs but even cheaper. Panthers tried having an expensive goalie before (Vokoun) and it really didnt work for them so I have a hard time believing that's the direction they go.



Expensive goalie vs. cheap goalie is a team building aesthetic. You can win with both styles. However, expensive or cheap, if the talent is elite, it seldom becomes available. When it does, it's unlikely a GM rejects the chance at acquiring it based on aesthetics. The mere fact that he can get something of this ilk is a rare occurrence.



Apply this to the Campbell trade: This was a massive win for the panthers because when a player of his calibre became available, and other teams shied away due to his onerous contract, Tallon realized that a high end talent could be had for a relatively cheap price. What resulted was that Tallon got a #1 D for a salary dump. Now the Luongo deal won't be near as lopsided, but the general principle applies: availabe elite talent that wants to return home, the two teams have consummated multiple trades in the recent past, and he's not going to have to give up a Huberdeau/Gudbranson level building block to get it done. Based on these factors, Tallon would be going against the general motif of the Campbell trade to deny it.



Oh, and I think Halak and Elliot stay in St. Louis for a little while longer. Their strong tandem is what allowed them to be consistent enough to achieve #2 in the Western Conference last year. I don't know why they would give that up?

Bleach Clean is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.