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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-13-2012, 06:24 PM
  #851
Evil Doctor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Just his statements of a couple of days ago
on the radio; "hopes to close by mid-January".
New council? Goldwater? Referendum? Nope...

Greg Jamison...


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12-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
The word........is "no".
No the word is... give me a minute... omnishambles

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12-13-2012, 07:16 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
New council? Goldwater? Referendum? Nope...
Referendum is dead in the water.

New council won't be seated until midway through January.

GWI? May or may not be a factor but probably not until the team is bought and the lease is signed, right?

I'm expecting a new obstacle, so don't get me wrong, I'm not all peaches and cream, but the three you listed do not really seem like road blocks at this point. At least not to Jamison's quote of "hopes to close by mid-January".

I'm just waiting to find out what the unseen challenge forthcoming will be. I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks. Maybe it's just the world ending on 12-21-12. That would actually make a little too much sense.

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Old
12-13-2012, 07:36 PM
  #854
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Another downgrade

Pretty big. Two notches and negative outlook.

Wonder how their issue priced today?

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO (Standard & Poor's) Dec. 12, 2012--Standard & Poor's Ratings
Services lowered its long-term rating and underlying rating (SPUR) to 'A-'
from 'A+'
on Glendale, Ariz.'s general obligation (GO) bonds. The outlook is
negative.


"The rating action reflects our view of the city's continued general fund
deficits and estimated negative 19.5% general fund balance for fiscal 2012
,"
said Standard & Poor's credit analyst Alda Mostofi.

The negative fund balance primarily results from large payments representing
nearly 20% of city general fund expenditures in the past two years, for
management fees related to the hockey arena
.

The ratings further reflect our view of the city's:
Participation in the diverse Phoenix metropolitan statistical area
economic base;
Moderate overall net debt burden, including all overlapping and direct
tax-supported debt; and
Willingness to generate additional revenue through the recent adoption of
local sales tax rate increase.

The negative outlook reflects our anticipation that the city will continue to
carry a negative fund balance for the next few years
.
edit: I thought the first payment was just an insurance claim?


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12-13-2012, 09:21 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Referendum is dead in the water.

New council won't be seated until midway through January.

GWI? May or may not be a factor but probably not until the team is bought and the lease is signed, right?

I'm expecting a new obstacle, so don't get me wrong, I'm not all peaches and cream, but the three you listed do not really seem like road blocks at this point. At least not to Jamison's quote of "hopes to close by mid-January".
For me "hopes to close by mid-January" is code for "no way in hell do I close this deal". Vague beliefs as to opposed to firm commitment is always a bad sign.

Of course the whole point of my post was to signify that the other three obstacles won't even come into play, regardless of their relative strengths...

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12-13-2012, 09:29 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
For me "hopes to close by mid-January" is code for "no way in hell do I close this deal". Vague beliefs as to opposed to firm commitment is always a bad sign.

Of course the whole point of my post was to signify that the other three obstacles won't even come into play, regardless of their relative strengths...
This vagueness is a bit troubling, particularly after he has had more than a year to put together his investment group. I would have thought that he would have been all set to go to close the deal ASAP after Glendale's approval of the lease. Instead, it's back to "maybes".

Meanwhile, it looks like Glendale is going to have quite a prolonged and unpleasant hangover from their binge with the NHL and Coyotes.

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12-13-2012, 09:47 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
For me "hopes to close by mid-January" is code for "no way in hell do I close this deal". Vague beliefs as to opposed to firm commitment is always a bad sign.

Of course the whole point of my post was to signify that the other three obstacles won't even come into play, regardless of their relative strengths...
Did you listen to the interview? They were discussing timeframes not ultimate results. The "hope" was in reference to when and not if. Had they asked "will you close?" he'd have answered yes. The question was "when will you close?". His answer of of "hopefully mid January" was meant to clarify "mid" as opposed to "late". He meant that he's guessing six weeks as opposed to eight. Or at least that he hopes it will be six weeks and not eight weeks.

You've got me curious, though. How do you glean "no way in Hell" from this?

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12-13-2012, 10:00 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
...looks like Glendale is going to have quite a prolonged and unpleasant hangover from their binge with the NHL and Coyotes.
yepp. full on 20 rounder at that...


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Old
12-13-2012, 10:20 PM
  #859
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Based on what I am reading here it looks like the referendum won't fly unless Jones gets a whole crew behind him or Goldwater hires professional signature signers to get it done, the council meeting on 1/15 might be interesting.

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12-13-2012, 10:34 PM
  #860
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Based on what I am reading here it looks like the referendum won't fly unless Jones gets a whole crew behind him or Goldwater hires professional signature signers to get it done, the council meeting on 1/15 might be interesting.
Goldwater can't get directly involved with gathering signatures. Besides they're all about raising money, not spending it.

They do have an association with another group who could help though. But so far there hasn't been a peep out of them.

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12-13-2012, 10:45 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Goldwater can't get directly involved with gathering signatures. Besides they're all about raising money, not spending it.

They do have an association with another group who could help though. But so far there hasn't been a peep out of them.
I just emailed them asking them why they have been absent this time around after scuttling the Hulsizer deal. Lets see what they say.

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12-14-2012, 12:00 AM
  #862
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What happens if this falls apart?(That scenario sounds very likely to me) Finish the season out in AZ and go to Canada after that? The NHL will have to foot the bill since i assume they wont be getting another 25 million dollar check from Glendale.
Would love to see the NHL "take it in the shorts" if the deal with gramps Jamison fronting for unknown investors falls apart. But as we all know by now, if gramps fails to purchase the team by Jan. 31 he will still have Feb. 28, March 31, April 30, May 31, and June 30 until the NHL needs a soft landing spot, unless by then Glendale has decided to cover the losses for yet one more season until an owner can be found.....push 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 reset!




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12-14-2012, 12:11 AM
  #863
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I thought the first payment was just an insurance claim?
Yeah, no worries, they'll never need to pay it. Ownership will close in two weeks.

I, aint gonna play, Subordination City

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12-14-2012, 12:53 AM
  #864
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BTW how funny would it be if the TO Nation bought Westgate and the Coyotes. So they would get a fee to manage the arena and then capture all the revenue from Westgate but since it would be part of their reservation the tax dollars don't go to Glendale

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12-14-2012, 12:55 AM
  #865
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I, aint gonna play, Subordination City
... whatre you tuned into? Steve Van Zandt's Sun City recording, the
E Street Band & Springsteen, or the boxed set of the Soprano's that brought that on?

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12-14-2012, 01:32 AM
  #866
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BTW how funny would it be if the TO Nation bought Westgate and the Coyotes. So they would get a fee to manage the arena and then capture all the revenue from Westgate but since it would be part of their reservation the tax dollars don't go to Glendale
How would it "be part of their reservation"?

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12-14-2012, 01:34 AM
  #867
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Did you listen to the interview? They were discussing timeframes not ultimate results. The "hope" was in reference to when and not if. Had they asked "will you close?" he'd have answered yes. The question was "when will you close?". His answer of of "hopefully mid January" was meant to clarify "mid" as opposed to "late". He meant that he's guessing six weeks as opposed to eight. Or at least that he hopes it will be six weeks and not eight weeks.

You've got me curious, though. How do you glean "no way in Hell" from this?
If he actually had a chance of closing this, he wouldn't have said "hope". It's a vague belief that some miracle will show up and make all his plans a reality. If meant that he will close by mid-January, he would have said "will". Of course if he actually had the money he would have closed this past summer...

So yeah, Jamison is his own worst enemy in all this...

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12-14-2012, 01:48 AM
  #868
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How would it "be part of their reservation"?
Aren't they buying land in Glendale and incorporating that into a reservation?

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12-14-2012, 07:46 AM
  #869
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
If he actually had a chance of closing this, he wouldn't have said "hope". It's a vague belief that some miracle will show up and make all his plans a reality. If meant that he will close by mid-January, he would have said "will". Of course if he actually had the money he would have closed this past summer...

So yeah, Jamison is his own worst enemy in all this...
He more than likely is still looking for money. Afterall why not close now, it's not like the NHL hasn't checked him or his investors out by now. He'd be getting his subsidy and not even have to start paying the players until the lockout ends. Seems like he'd be way further ahead closing now than when the lockout was over and he'd have to start writing cheques for huge cash. Closing now he could start collecting the AMF and it would give him some working capital.

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12-14-2012, 08:35 AM
  #870
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Sorry CGG.... but your original post I responded to was more or less using the same broad brush and apply it to one situation. Sure we can take each city on a case by case basis and justify one over the other.... but that wasn't what you originally posted and not the point I was making.
The original post was to an article that is basically a scathing report on all public arena and stadium projects. I've completely admitted that Edmonton and Quebec City won't make money off their new projects. That's not the point. Cities can still build them if they really want to.

I'm not even justifying one city over the other. You're trying to basically take Glendale's disastrous predicament and put in on the same level playing field as the theoretical arenas in Quebec and Edmonton and that's compeltely disingenuous. Glendale never should have built the arena in the first place. But cities can still build arenas if that's what their citizens want and they realize that it will cost them money.

Glendale is a unique animal that not only built an ill-advised arena for a wildly unpopular sport that was pretty much destined to lose piles of money, they still seem to think it's a good idea to quadruple down on that investment and hand out welfare checks totalling $300 million to Jamison and an unidentified group of shadowy investors when the city is already broke. That is a completely different level of lunacy that the world has never seen. And you try to argue that pointing this out is "hypocritical" and "the rules must be different up north". Well they are different up north. Quebec City is not going to pay the arena manager $300 million over 20 years to manage the arena. That's the key here. Not the original investment, which was a terrible idea to start with, but the ongoing financial support from a city that simply can't afford to support the wildly unpopular hockey team.

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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
I also pointed in a subsequent post that the original lease Glendale entered into is not all that different than the tentative one QC will be operating. Up until Jerry Moyes put the franchise into BK court, Glendale was getting money from rent, sales taxes, and surcharges to ticket sales at all arena events. The one big difference is I don't think Glendale was receiving a fee for the rights to manage the arena. But I do know they were not paying out for an arena manager. The BK changed all that.
Oh goody, we're back to blaming Moyes again. The NHL should know what they're doing in managing hockey teams and arenas, especially when they can lean on AEG, who's part of the old boys club. Yet they seem to be losing piles of money each year on the team, even after firing the overpaid coach and paying market rates for travel. How exactly was Moyes supposed to survive for another 20 years in Glendale with a financial sinkhole of a hockey team and arena operation?

Yes, the BK changed all that, it just made it completely obvious to even those who weren't paying attention that hockey wasn't going to work in Glendale. Yet, instead of figuring that out, the COG has spent $50 million and just committed to another $300 million that they'll never see again to keep that sinkhole of a team around for another 20 years. The BK didn't force the COG to start spending $15 million a year (or $25 million for the past 2 years). They could have watched the Coyotes leave, hire someone who knows what they're doing for about $2 million a year, and been far better off and less in debt than they are now.

Someone who knows more about Quebec than me can offer up a comparison of rents between the original Glendale lease and the Quebec City one. But once Quebec offers up a $300 million subsidy to the arena manager, then you can try to compare the absurdity of the two.

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Interesting. Dont think Ive ever read that... theres a song by Blue Rodeo called 5 Days in May from the album 5 Days in July. I guess they couldnt make their minds up huh? Confusing... anyhoo, catchy number called Hasnt Hit Me Yet on it. Worth a listen Jim.
Qualtiy album, one of the finest Canada has produced. Written over 5 days in July, but I guess the word "July" doesn't really rhyme with much, so they used "May" in the song title. And fittingly Hasn't Hit Me Yet is a pretty good theme song for the COG.

Hey, hey, I guess it hasn't hit me yet
Fell through this crack and I kinda lost my head


Glendale didn't know what they were doing, fell through some kind of crack, lost their head, and haven't quite yet figured out what a mess they're in, or that there's a way out that doesn't involve spending another $300 million on the arena.

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12-14-2012, 08:44 AM
  #871
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^^^^

The CoG's thinking is actually fairly simple.

They are in "The Money Pit" so deep that the 4 council members that voted to give Jamison his windfall, figure the only way out is to buy your way out.

I wonder how many of the famous four have used one credit card to pay off another credit card?

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12-14-2012, 09:25 AM
  #872
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If you relocate a cricket team to Winnipeg and no one goes to the games, is it the fault of the people of Winnipeg or the fault of the league for putting a cricket team in Winnipeg where no one cares about it.
You've obviously never been at Assiniboine Park on weekends in the summer if you think no one cares about cricket in Winnipeg.

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12-14-2012, 09:35 AM
  #873
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You've got me curious, though. How do you glean "no way in Hell" from this?
There are lots of reasons to be skeptical of Jamison. He's been really the only potential ownership group for over a year now. The NHL has also said that they have tentatively agreed to his ownership pending an agreement with Glendale since May of last year. In that time, no one has found out who his ownership group is. There have been lots of rumors, but everyone one of them is different. In addition, the NHL doesn't exactly have a sterling history of approving owners. Just witness John Spano, John Rigas, and William Del Biaggio. If he does have some interested parties, they probably instructed him to get the best deal possible and they'll see if it is enough money for them. If it isn't, they back away.

He also had a better deal before, with more money in total and more money in the early years of the deal. But he was unable to close on it. It seems unlikely that he will now close on a less favorable deal.

Now, let's look at the timeline Jamison says he needs to finalize the deal with the NHL. If he does have a group, an agreement with the NHL for the price, and tentative approval from the NHL, he shouldn't need 4-6 weeks to get it done. I could see a week, maybe 10 days to get everything in order, but 4-6 weeks is too much.

There is also the small matter of the lockout going on right now. The revenue split with the players isn't likely to have a big impact on how profitable the Coyotes will be. They will still be losing lots of money, even after the deal with the COG. But revenue sharing could be. The problem here is he doesn't have a say in how much he'll get, at least as far as we know. If he closes on the deal, but the revenue sharing isn't enough to make the Coyotes profitable, he's stuck with them.

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12-14-2012, 09:43 AM
  #874
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Aren't they buying land in Glendale and incorporating that into a reservation?
Nope. Don't take my word for it but here ya go -

In the valley, not all land is within city limits or town limits. Some of the land in Maricopa County is on what we simple folks out here call 'county islands'. Chalk it up to living in a desert the folks out here like the notion of 'islands in the sun' or something. Often, cities will annex unincorporated land when it is to their advantage. There are after all costs with annexing unincorporated land, one of them being you then have to provide the owners with city services (such as fire, water, police and such) - costs that you can of course bill for, but often there are costs for adding infrastructure which prompt cities to be deliberate about annexing.

Anyhoo there are multiple reasons to annex land. One of them would be if you knew there was a plan to buy unincorporated land next to your city and turn it into something you didn't want next to your city.

The land they bought back around 2003 was unincorporated land bordering the city.

IIRC, they bought it on the downlow, not as the T'ohono Nation, but by using a variety of different corps, including iirc, Rainer Resources Inc which finally transferred the land into the tribe's name in 2009. Which is fine, not complaining, all legal, on the downlow.

A 1960s federal dam project periodically flooded acreage on their Gila Bend Reservation. Residents affected were relocated; in 1986 they settled with the Feds their claims for damages - the Feds gave them $30 million (almost $1 for every Canadian eh?) and the right to add replacement land to their reservation.


Law 99-503 specifies that the tribe may purchase up to 10,000 acres (40 km2) unincorporated land in Pima, Pinal, or Maricopa Counties which the Federal Government will place into trust, thereby making it legally part of the Reservation (from wiki on the Tribe)

in 2009 they announced their plan to build the casino that land - unincorporated land.

They've been taken to court, which so far the courts have basically ruled the 99-503 is okay and tough nuts to Glendale and their friends (the state and other tribes). Time will tell how far the city goes to fight it; the tribe is okay with proceeding with their plans. The land they bought next to Glendale is less than 10,000 acres - but they can't buy incorporated land and claim it as reservation. Only unincorporated land in those three counties.


Westgate and where the arena sits is NOT on unincorporated land, it's in the city.

So no, while they can try and buy land, or a hospital, or an apartment complex, or shopping mall or any property in incorporated city limits in any of those three counties, they can't put slots or gaming tables in 'em.

I've been trying to figure out how some people think the tribe can make a profit out of owning the mall and the team when those same people keep saying the NHL and GJ can't make a profit owning the team. Maybe it's because they were thinking the tribe could put hundreds of slot machines in the mall and put lots of slots inside the Arena???

They can't.

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12-14-2012, 10:11 AM
  #875
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You've obviously never been at Assiniboine Park on weekends in the summer if you think no one cares about cricket in Winnipeg.
Ya, I'd probably pay to see top caliber cricket.

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