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Is Crosby overrated?

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Old
12-13-2012, 01:40 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
no one ever said Gretzky or Lemieux were "all these things"
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
sorry, but this is ridiculous.

speed? there are several players i would put ahead of him when it comes to speed/skating

shot? sure, its decent. but not even the best in todays game, let alone HISTORY (hence his one 50 goal season)

vision? he is a good passer with great vision, but so are guys like Thornton, and Sedin.

you said it yourself. "there is nothing he isnt GOOD at". but you know what? i cant think of one area he is really GREAT at. in every category of hockey skills, i can think or make an argument for another player. parody exists amongst players today, just like it does amongst teams.
Agreed that his mystique, legacy, and potential have, to date, outweighed his actual accomplishments on the ice, of which there have been numerous. But you're going the way of the OP (albeit in a way less ridiculous manner) in trying to discredit individual attributes of his game, and by claiming that he isn't at or near the top in those areas, it gives the impression that for him to be rated like other all time greats he'd need to excel in every area. At least that's what I've taken from it.

To further the point, the criticisms seem hair splitting to the point of being false. He's unquestionably one of the best, most skilled skaters in the game. Skating isn't pure speed, it isn't pure acceleration...it's a combination of those components plus agility, edge work, ability to change direction, balance. In that respect, it's hard to think of more than 3 players to put in the conversation with this guy. Having a great shot isn't synonymous with scoring goals, as evidenced many times throughout the game's history. Having a good selection of shots and the knowledge about when to use each one to score is probably more important than being able to "snipe", something Crosby can do pretty well in his own right. No, he isn't Stamkos, but how many players are capable of scoring 50 goals and potting 60+ assists?

You point to his playmaking, but going by raw assist totals, who's ahead of him in the playmaking department? Thornton had 8 more in his peak season. H. Sedin is very gifted. His brother is a fellow Ross winner and linemate (not trying to discredit their achievements, but above a certain threshold, linemates matter). Crosby put up 84 assists in his second season at 19. Thornton had established himself as the premier playmaker in the game when he hit 92 in his 10th season. To clarify, Thornton is an outstanding player; truly elite playmaking ability.

He may be overrated in the sense that the spotlight is continually fixed on him, but scrutinizing his individual attributes and overall ability in comparison to his peers does his peers no favors. People have taken his injury history different ways. I think it's a bit unfair to extrapolate a season's worth of numbers based on ppg at the time of an injury, but with Crosby....consistency hasn't really ever been an issue. His work ethic is probably the best in the game based purely on the information and footage available to us. The guy is a freak that hasn't been able to stay healthy. He suffers from the same type of overrating that Forsberg did/has; i.e. what could have been.

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12-13-2012, 04:34 PM
  #77
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I think that crowd somewhat is hypnotized by Crosby. When media repeats that someone has superskills, that he is successor of Gretzky and Lemieux, the crowd gradually starts to believe it, they start to see that "Crosby is one of the best, and most complete players in history. Theres nothing he isnt good at. Speed, shot, vision. And on top of that, he has an intensity that some of the greats lacked".
Yes, I agree, he is a great player, I enjoy him, but it's ridiculous to compare him with Gretzky, Lemieux. Even Jagr, Forsberg are better than Sid. Sid is not even the best player in the league.
There is definitely a hype about him. In medicine it's called "treatment by suggestion", some kind of brainwash. Last season, sitting in the pressbox, he was still main headliner in a media
Well that happens when a guy has a start like Sid did in 11 and how he plays. Without that injury it's quite apparent that he would have had 2 incredible seasons in 11 and 12.

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12-14-2012, 01:54 AM
  #78
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Fine post. However, I think it speaks to the uncertainty surrounding Crosby's health and his place in the game to this point, that in the same post you can say you "bought into the hype" and that eventually "maybe he has a career similar to Jagr." The continual hype since before he played in the NHL is one factor that possibly makes him overrated. Another factor is his injuries, and equating what he did in limited time to the value of most/all of a season. Jagr played at least 63 games total (NHL, playoffs, international leagues/tourneys) in every season from '89 to '12. That's 24 years straight, through seasons canceled and shortened by lockout, shortened foreign schedules, injuries, etc., and it looks like he is able to play that many games this season at age 40-41. Crosby has 69 games, including playoffs, in what's going on 3 seasons. For someone to compare to the careers of Sakic, Yzerman, etc., let alone Jagr, they have to be able to play at a high level for a long time. Part of that is staying healthy, as a player has no value when he's not playing. Crosby has played 524 games after Juniors, Jagr has played over 1,800 (NHL, playoffs, KHL, Czech), including over 1,600 in the NHL and international championships. It's especially disruptive if the player is hurt a lot (see the Pens' collapse last season upon his return).

Another factor is how good he was at such a young age. I think that's where the Gretzky/Lemieux comparisons started gaining credence with many. However, as we've seen with Ovechkin, it takes hard work and adjustment just to maintain an elite level in the NHL, nevermind hitting new levels.

Finally, the hype of his "overall game" and the title of "best player in the game" is a bit much at times. His overall game is strong, but it's not like he's Datsyuk or Clarke with better scoring. He is probably the best player when healthy, but that means very little when he isn't playing 2/3 of the time. He's got a lot of talent, and he works very hard. If he acted like a grown up on the ice, I could even be a fan one day. I think the "little 3" (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin) are all fine, talented players. However, I just thought the stars of the 90s inspired more fear in the opposition. Whether it was post-peak Lemieux and Gretzky... Jagr, Messier, Forsberg, Lindros, Fedorov, Sakic, Yzerman, Gilmour, etc. ... Hasek, Roy and Brodeur/Stevens... etc. Players like Bure and Selanne were especially feared on big ice, and no matter how much of an underdog, players like Jagr, Forsberg and Hasek (when he did play) commanded the attention and respect of their opponents in a way that I don't see with Crosby on the perennial favorite and all-star laden Canadian teams. There was a certain aura that surrounded most of those greats, knowing that if there was anything more than fumes left (and sometimes even then), the opposing team had its work cut out for it. It usually wasn't going to be easy, even if you had the better team. Opponents knew they could, and likely would, take over games and even series without a moment's notice. I don't so often see that level of intimidation with many of today's greats. Since the lockout, I saw it with players like Jagr and Forsberg, even in their 30s. I saw it with Pronger, even through the injuries and suspensions. Crosby seemed to have been hitting that stage a couple times, and subsequently been injured: in much of '07 & '08, and in much of '10 & '11. The challenge is to hit that level again, maintain it or something close to it, and stay healthy, all for more than a couple of consecutive seasons. I do think he will be as good as he ever will be in the next 2-3 seasons, if he can stay healthy. It's what he does after that, including his durability and staying power, that will most affect his career value. If he can play for a long time, I think he will be a good player well into his 30s.
You know, I hope you are right. I really do because I love him as a player, but he can drive me nuts sometimes. I guess subconciously I want to see him dominate the NHL because in all honesty I've always felt the game is stronger when there is a dominant force in the NHL. We haven't seen that year in and year out since.............well, Jagr I guess. Hockey needs that for sure. But first, hockey needs to be back before we can ever elevate Crosby further. I too think he can reach back to the same level, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Peter Forsberg was not better than Sid, Malkin or Ovechkin. Please, he is the most overrated player in NHL history
At their best you can definitely say they were better than Forsberg, and normally I agree that he is extremely overrated. However............while he had a shortened career he still had a better career overall than the other three, I think. Too much of a playoff god in my opinion. His numbers are insane for that.

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12-14-2012, 09:21 AM
  #79
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At their best you can definitely say they were better than Forsberg, and normally I agree that he is extremely overrated. However............while he had a shortened career he still had a better career overall than the other three, I think. Too much of a playoff god in my opinion. His numbers are insane for that.
I think we need to give Forsberg credit for his defensive game as well. Seeing their career averages, where Forsberg played in the dead puck era, combining it with Foppa being a complete player, i cant see why he is'nt on the others level. As their careers have gone, Crosby is the only one with a clear chance of moving ahead of Foppa in actual quality of play. But becouse of injuries, maybe they'll all move past him for people not too concerned about peak.

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12-14-2012, 09:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I think we need to give Forsberg credit for his defensive game as well. Seeing their career averages, where Forsberg played in the dead puck era, combining it with Foppa being a complete player, i cant see why he is'nt on the others level. As their careers have gone, Crosby is the only one with a clear chance of moving ahead of Foppa in actual quality of play. But becouse of injuries, maybe they'll all move past him for people not too concerned about peak.
The only non Penguin/Hab jersey I currently own is a Forsberg Avalanche Jersey. That being said, while he is the player I always patterned my game around he simply was not as good as Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin at their highest level.

Forsbergs career high is 30 goals. He also couldn't stay healthy. He was a playoff warrior and is remembered greatly for that. That tends to scew his actual value. In his own era Jagr, Mario and Federov played at elite all time levels above him. He was consistenly outproduced by his teammate, Joe Sakic.

Forsberg is one of the most unique and awesome players in NHL history, and I'll agree he affected the game in many ways besides the scoresheet. However, Ovechkin netting goals, Crosby dominating in all facets of the game (mini-forsberg) while putting up the points and Malkin controlling the entire flow of a game are all better than Forsbergs game at their highest levels.

That isn't taking anything away from Peter the Great.

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12-14-2012, 10:07 AM
  #81
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The only non Penguin/Hab jersey I currently own is a Forsberg Avalanche Jersey. That being said, while he is the player I always patterned my game around he simply was not as good as Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin at their highest level.

Forsbergs career high is 30 goals. He also couldn't stay healthy. He was a playoff warrior and is remembered greatly for that. That tends to scew his actual value. In his own era Jagr, Mario and Federov played at elite all time levels above him. He was consistenly outproduced by his teammate, Joe Sakic.

Forsberg is one of the most unique and awesome players in NHL history, and I'll agree he affected the game in many ways besides the scoresheet. However, Ovechkin netting goals, Crosby dominating in all facets of the game (mini-forsberg) while putting up the points and Malkin controlling the entire flow of a game are all better than Forsbergs game at their highest levels.

That isn't taking anything away from Peter the Great.
What are you talking about he was "constantly outscored by Sakic"? They traded the lead in PPG and Forsberg was better defensively, although maybe not by a considerable margin. Sakic may have had the better career but that is only when ignoring the many games Peter missed.
Malkin is at least thus far NOT head and shoulders above Forsberg offensively, just being able to play more games per season and Peter was a more complete player. Lets not forget that Jagr and Hasek was ever present stealing trophies away, partly due to games played.
For sure Ovechkin due to his many goals at times was better offensively than Forsberg, but not near him defensively or in the clutch.
Crosby as i said has during the upcoming years every opportunity to separate himself from Foppa and in fact was better then him the last couple of years.


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12-14-2012, 10:10 AM
  #82
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I think he's overrated by a lot of non-hockey people, who consider him on the level with all time greats. But, he is criticised so much by fans that I would argue that he is, in some areas, underrated rather than overrated. Anyone who argues that xx player is better than Crosby (without using the concussion arguement) makes that fairly obvious.

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12-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What are you talking about he was "constantly outscored by Sakic"? They traded the lead in PPG and Forsberg was better defensively, although maybe not by a considerable margin. Sakic may have had the better career but that is only when ignoring the many games Peter missed.
Malkin is at least thus far NOT head and shoulders above Forsberg offensively, just being able to play more games per season and Peter was a more complete player. Lets not forget that Jagr was ever present stealing Art Rosses at least partly(OK very partly) becouse of games played. Jagr was a beast.
For sure Ovechkin due to his many goals at times was better offensively than Forsberg, but not near him defensively.
Crosby as i said has during the upcoming years every opportunity to separate himself from Foppa and in fact was better then him the last couple of years.
Ok, 94-95 through 03-04

Joe Sakic scored 327 goals in the regular season.

Peter Forsberg scored 216 goale in the regular season.

That is a difference of 111 goals.

Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby have all scored 50 goals. Crosby and Malkin are as good of a playmaker as Forsberg. Ovechkin is(or rather was) a more physically intimidating player. Ovechkin scored more goals in in his first FOUR seasons (222) than Peter the Great did during his ENTIRE Colorado Avalache career.

Forsberg was a great player. Those three are generational players.

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12-14-2012, 10:24 AM
  #84
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Ok, 94-95 through 03-04

Joe Sakic scored 327 goals in the regular season.

Peter Forsberg scored 216 goale in the regular season.

That is a difference of 111 goals.

Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby have all scored 50 goals. Crosby and Malkin are as good of a playmaker as Forsberg. Ovechkin is(or rather was) a more physically intimidating player. Ovechkin scored more goals in in his first FOUR seasons (222) than Peter the Great did during his ENTIRE Colorado Avalache career.

Forsberg was a great player. Those three are generational players.
You're putting too much value on the number of goals here. Crosby is a better playmaker yes, he is nowadays a better goalscorer as well, but lets not mix in his quality of play with Malkin and Ovechkins. I'm not necessarily saying Forsberg was a better player than the latter two, but the numbers are there to see that Malkin overall is not a better player offensively than Peter and defensively it is at least a wash. Ovechkin was better than Peter offensively, but not as a package and certainly not in the clutch.
Sakic was a better goalscorer than Peter, but their PPG:s are similar and i do say it again: I believe Forsberg was better defensively and physically overall.

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12-14-2012, 10:28 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
The only non Penguin/Hab jersey I currently own is a Forsberg Avalanche Jersey. That being said, while he is the player I always patterned my game around he simply was not as good as Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin at their highest level.

Forsbergs career high is 30 goals. He also couldn't stay healthy. He was a playoff warrior and is remembered greatly for that. That tends to scew his actual value. In his own era Jagr, Mario and Federov played at elite all time levels above him. He was consistenly outproduced by his teammate, Joe Sakic.

Forsberg is one of the most unique and awesome players in NHL history, and I'll agree he affected the game in many ways besides the scoresheet. However, Ovechkin netting goals, Crosby dominating in all facets of the game (mini-forsberg) while putting up the points and Malkin controlling the entire flow of a game are all better than Forsbergs game at their highest levels.

That isn't taking anything away from Peter the Great.
He was NOT consistently outproduced by Joe Sakic.

1995: Sakic
1996: Sakic
1997: Forsberg
1998: Forsberg
1999: Forsberg
2000: Sakic
2001: Sakic
2003: Forsberg
2004: Sakic


And by now, it should be obvious why Forsberg peaked at 30 goals: He was a much better playmaker than either set of Kamensky/Lemieux or Tanguay/Hejduk. We're talking about a player who set his teammates up at a rate of 60+ assists per 82 games every season - without exception. And if you don't believe he had the talent to score more than that, then you're welcome to explain why his goal-scoring jumped up 20% in the playoffs.

In the playoffs, he was better than Sakic, Jagr, Fedorov, or any other skater we've seen since Gretzky/Lemieux/Messier. In fact, he and Messier have a lot in common: People tend to underrate their seasons on raw numbers because they miss a handful of regular season games every year. But besides when he had to get an emergency operation to remove a spleen so that he wouldn't die, has it ever stopped him from playing when it matters? This is a guy who took two concussions in one month and toughed it out because it was the playoffs.

Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin have a good start, but they haven't even played half as many playoff games as Forsberg. And Malkin and Ovechkin already have as many sub-point-per-game seasons as Forsberg did in his career, so let's not count our chickens before they hatch.


I mean, saying that being a great player in the playoffs skews "actual value" is one of the most absurd things I've read on HOH. The playoffs matter more than anything else.

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12-14-2012, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Ovechkin scored more goals in in his first FOUR seasons (222) than Peter the Great did during his ENTIRE Colorado Avalache career.
And he took more shots in those four years than Peter Forsberg did in his entire Colorado, Philadelphia, and Nashville career...


I mean, would you really rather Claude Lemieux be the set-up man on the ice, just so Forsberg could score more goals at the expense of the team?

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12-14-2012, 10:58 AM
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The argument that Forsberg coulda, woulda, shoulda scored more goals is hogwash. Crosby and Malkin each have post seasons better than Forsbergs best. Ovechkin has tremendous PPG in the post season.

Crosby and Malkin can score 50 AND score 60 assists. Forsbergs obviously could not score more than 30 in a regular season because he never did so. Ever.

Sakic scored 111 more goals than Forsberg during their overlapping career. Actual goals. I don't care about projected, anticipated, could haves. I care about reality. Reality says Joe Sakic scored 111 more goals than Peter Forsberg. Therefore, Sakic outproduced Peter.

Penalizing a player for taking more shots?? IE creating offense?

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12-14-2012, 11:10 AM
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The argument that Forsberg coulda, woulda, shoulda scored more goals is hogwash. Crosby and Malkin each have post seasons better than Forsbergs best. Ovechkin has tremendous PPG in the post season.
Still locked in goals only i see. Obviously not aware of the dead puck era either.

Quote:
Crosby and Malkin can score 50 AND score 60 assists. Forsbergs obviously could not score more than 30 in a regular season because he never did so. Ever.
Dont mix up Crosby and Malkin, that is a rule of thumb to go by. You'll see that when hockey is back if Crosby stays healthy. The 50 goals and 60 goals you talk about is like Forsbergs 35 goals and 75 assists he was capable of in 82 games during the dead puck era. You cant take one or two of Malkins best seasons and believe that i wont bring up Forsbergs bests. You see where adding his physical aspect and defensive prowess becomes pretty stellar here?

Quote:
Sakic scored 111 more goals than Forsberg during their overlapping career. Actual goals. I don't care about projected, anticipated, could haves. I care about reality. Reality says Joe Sakic scored 111 more goals than Peter Forsberg. Therefore, Sakic outproduced Peter.

Penalizing a player for taking more shots?? IE creating offense?
Goals, goals, goals, as if a guy like Adam Oates did nothing during his Hall of Fame career.

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12-14-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You're putting too much value on the number of goals here. Crosby is a better playmaker yes, he is nowadays a better goalscorer as well, but lets not mix in his quality of play with Malkin and Ovechkins. I'm not necessarily saying Forsberg was a better player than the latter two, but the numbers are there to see that Malkin overall is not a better player offensively than Peter and defensively it is at least a wash. Ovechkin was better than Peter offensively, but not as a package and certainly not in the clutch.
Sakic was a better goalscorer than Peter, but their PPG:s are similar and i do say it again: I believe Forsberg was better defensively and physically overall.
Really? Come on...we all know Lindros' PPG, and Bossy, and we know why they're going to come off as better.

Games played in the NHL after the age of 30:

Forsberg - 167 (1.19 PPG)
Sakic - 586 (1.12 PPG)

Who do you take?...

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12-14-2012, 11:18 AM
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Still locked in goals only i see. Obviously not aware of the dead puck era either.


Dont mix up Crosby and Malkin, that is a rule of thumb to go by. You'll see that when hockey is back if Crosby stays healthy. The 50 goals and 60 goals you talk about is like Forsbergs 35 goals and 75 assists he was capable of in 82 games during the dead puck era. You cant take one or two of Malkins best seasons and believe that i wont bring up Forsbergs bests. You see where adding his physical aspect and defensive prowess becomes pretty stellar here?


Goals, goals, goals, as if a guy like Adam Oates did nothing during his Hall of Fame career.
Adam Oates wasn't even the best player on his team in his prime, let alone in the running for best player in the world.

dead puck era: 02-03 5.309
Now: 11-12: 5.320

Clearly Forsberg would hit 50 every season in the "nuuw" NHL.

I love the guy, but you take any player who played the majority of his career in his 20's and you'll get the same argument.

Forsberg was fantastic, just not at the level of Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin.

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12-14-2012, 11:21 AM
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Really? Come on...we all know Lindros' PPG, and Bossy, and we know why they're going to come off as better.

Games played in the NHL after the age of 30:

Forsberg - 167 (1.19 PPG)
Sakic - 586 (1.12 PPG)

Who do you take?...
Yeah, i guess it becomes a matter of being able to distinguish a career from the quality of a player, eh? Forsberg was about as good as Sakic, but Sakic had the better career.

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12-14-2012, 11:31 AM
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Adam Oates wasn't even the best player on his team in his prime, let alone in the running for best player in the world.

dead puck era: 02-03 5.309
Now: 11-12: 5.320

Clearly Forsberg would hit 50 every season in the "nuuw" NHL.

I love the guy, but you take any player who played the majority of his career in his 20's and you'll get the same argument.

Forsberg was fantastic, just not at the level of Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin.
I think you're really going into semantics now. That Malkin season was slightly better than Forsbergs best per game, amongst at least three other Peters Hart Trophy-one. Malkin has ONE other such season. So lets just wait and see if Malkin can keep it up, and become as complete a player as Forsberg was at his best.

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12-14-2012, 11:32 AM
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Crosby and Malkin can score 50 AND score 60 assists. Forsbergs obviously could not score more than 30 in a regular season because he never did so. Ever.
The 60-assist pace is the lowest Forsberg ever set the bar. He averaged 74. And this is where I remind you the era in which Forsberg played most of his hockey...

As for saying that he couldn't score more than 30 because he didn't - that's not how logic works. He didn't, because it would have been to the team's detriment. Forcing more shots on net rather than controlling the play and waiting to find an open winger would have been selfish. His teammates in Colorado (other than Tanguay) were natural finishers. Milan Hejduk and Claude Lemieux would find space and Forsberg would find them. That's how hockey is played when there is a disparate level in playmaking skills. All Forsberg did was accentuate his linemates' positives. That's why Milan Hejduk has a 50-goal season and a Rocket Richard Trophy.

Or do you think Milan Hejduk was the most important player just because he was the trigger man?


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Sakic scored 111 more goals than Forsberg during their overlapping career. Actual goals. I don't care about projected, anticipated, could haves. I care about reality. Reality says Joe Sakic scored 111 more goals than Peter Forsberg. Therefore, Sakic outproduced Peter.
There's this thing called Assists. The NHL keeps track of them. And you shouldn't have used the word "consistent" then, because you're defending what you stated with a cumulative number.


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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Penalizing a player for taking more shots?? IE creating offense?
Also a good way of creating offense? Passing. But you don't even consider that in situations where Ovechkin would have shot, Forsberg would have passed to a player with a higher percentage chance. Because all you want to talk about are Goals.

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12-14-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I would argue that Malkin wasn't better than Crosby in 2009, let alone clearly better like you claim.
Malkin was clearly better. Malkin set the playoff points record and couldn't be contained by Datsyuk while Zetterberg used his magical defense to turn Crosby into a wooden block for the second straight year.

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Adam Oates wasn't even the best player on his team in his prime, let alone in the running for best player in the world.
Oates was better than Hull when they were together with the Blues (and when Oates was a Bruin); Oates made that St. Louis offense work. Hull received the Hart trophy because he had gaudy goal totals from sitting around waiting for Oates to do the work, while Oates posted 25-90-115 in 61 games or 33-118-151 in 80 (Hull had 86-45-131 in 78). Oates was also the reason the Blues had the puck (elite faceoff man) and key for covering Hull's snail pace (strong defensive presence).

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12-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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I think we need to give Forsberg credit for his defensive game as well. Seeing their career averages, where Forsberg played in the dead puck era, combining it with Foppa being a complete player, i cant see why he is'nt on the others level. As their careers have gone, Crosby is the only one with a clear chance of moving ahead of Foppa in actual quality of play. But becouse of injuries, maybe they'll all move past him for people not too concerned about peak.
I agree with this. Normally I also claim that Forsberg tends to get overrated on here, but he was certainly not a floater defensively either. It is a hard case to make to put Crosby over Forsberg career-wise right now. I mean, there was a time in the late 1990s that you could argue the only clear better player in the NHL was Jagr. Others lik Lindros, Kariya, Selanne, etc. were still there too, but Foppa was definitely in the mix.

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12-14-2012, 05:13 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
In the playoffs, he was better than Sakic, Jagr, Fedorov, or any other skater we've seen since Gretzky/Lemieux/Messier. In fact, he and Messier have a lot in common: People tend to underrate their seasons on raw numbers because they miss a handful of regular season games every year.
I don't think Forsberg was better than Jagr in the playoffs. He may have a small edge on Sakic and Fedorov, but if so it's close.

There's a wide range of opinions about Forsberg and Messier. Forsberg may be underrated by some, but I doubt it's because he missed a handful of games each year. He played more than 60 games only 6 times and never scored more than 30 goals. Messier may be underrated by some, but again I doubt it's because he missed a handful of games each year. He was top 5 in PPG twice (3rd each time), so it wouldn't seem a few extra games would have made a big difference.

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12-14-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I don't think Forsberg was better than Jagr in the playoffs. He may have a small edge on Sakic and Fedorov, but if so it's close.

There's a wide range of opinions about Forsberg and Messier. Forsberg may be underrated by some, but I doubt it's because he missed a handful of games each year. He played more than 60 games only 6 times and never scored more than 30 goals. Messier may be underrated by some, but again I doubt it's because he missed a handful of games each year. He was top 5 in PPG twice (3rd each time), so it wouldn't seem a few extra games would have made a big difference.
I would really like to know where this notion that Forsberg was better than Sakic in the playoffs is coming from?


'95-'08
Sakic GP-166 G-81 A-101 P-182 PpG-1.10 GpG-0.49 Game Winning Goals-19
Forsberg GP-151 G-64 A-107 P-171 PpG-1.13 GpG-0.42 Game Winning Goals-14

I'm sorry but I see no possible way that one could clearly elevate Forsberg over Joe in the playoff's.
If there's an edge to be found, it's clearly for Joe with his goal totals, game winning goals and then there's the small matter of Joe's name on the Conn Smythe.

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12-14-2012, 05:48 PM
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I don't think Forsberg was better than Jagr in the playoffs. He may have a small edge on Sakic and Fedorov, but if so it's close.
I think there's an argument that all of Forsberg, Sakic, and Fedorov were better than Jagr in the playoffs. Especially Sakic and Fedorov.

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12-14-2012, 05:51 PM
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I think there's an argument that all of Forsberg, Sakic, and Fedorov were better than Jagr in the playoffs. Especially Sakic and Fedorov.
I think you're right Devil. Jagr didn't really sustain his play in the PO's from year to year or even series to series like those other 3 did.
Any argument for Jagr in the PO's seems to have a lot of cherry picked series involved, not so much full years.

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12-14-2012, 06:08 PM
  #100
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I don't see him ever catching Jaromir Jagr, who to me, is the most underrated player in the world as far as these all time lists go. Offensively, Crosby will never best him imo.

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