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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-13-2012, 07:17 PM
  #776
GAGLine
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They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:23 AM
  #777
CM Lundqvist
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They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.
Smells like Bigfoot's...

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12-14-2012, 01:06 AM
  #778
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They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.
Smells like a turd wrapped in burnt hair.

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:21 AM
  #779
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Smells like a turd wrapped in burnt hair.
I love lamp

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12-14-2012, 07:25 AM
  #780
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"@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Expectation as this point is that NHL and NHLPA will talk via phone call today."

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:30 AM
  #781
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Maybe they'd have more luck with carrier pigeons or two cans tied together with strings. Another day gone........

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:41 AM
  #782
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Nationalize the NHL

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:10 AM
  #783
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Jesse Spector doing an AMA on r/hockey right now

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:21 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
"@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Expectation as this point is that NHL and NHLPA will talk via phone call today."
Nothing is going to happen until the mythical "drop dead date"

Since Bettman won't say when it is, we have to assume it's in the next few weeks. Early Jan I would think. Stupidly thy won't get it done I time for a New Year's Day start, which, even without the WC would be a great day to start.

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12-14-2012, 08:59 AM
  #785
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The NHL's Best Hope: Contraction

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanri...e-contraction/

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:14 AM
  #786
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I agree. The league should be cut to 26. I wouldn't go as far as 20 as the author believes, but 26 I think is a good number. The PA would NEVER go for it though, and that's the problem. Not to mention I believe I read somewhere that Bettman is considering expansion? Yikes.

If you want to keep the league at 30, at least move the 'Yotes to Quebec, and move a team (the Panthers, perhaps) to Hartford, re-align, and start from there.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:16 AM
  #787
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Contraction is fine and dandy but it wont' happen. The first step before contraction is considered would be moving struggling clubs to better markets. Unfortunately, the league doesn't seem to ever want to do so.

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12-14-2012, 09:18 AM
  #788
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Contraction is a stupid idea. The problem is not and has never been overexpansion. The problem has been bad leases and bad management.

The guy writing that article is right about one thing though. Reducing the players share won't solve the problem. That's about it though.

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12-14-2012, 09:25 AM
  #789
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Contraction is a stupid idea.
couldn't disagree more

the NHL talent pool is so diluted it's ridiculous...there is absolutely no reason a guy like Prust should comand the kind of contract he got

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12-14-2012, 09:29 AM
  #790
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Contraction is a stupid idea. The problem is not and has never been overexpansion. The problem has been bad leases and bad management.

The guy writing that article is right about one thing though. Reducing the players share won't solve the problem. That's about it though.
This is baloney. Its been both. Unless you're suggesting moving hockey to hotbeds like the Arizona desert, South Florida, Atlanta, Columbus, and Nashville were good ideas.

Anyway, its a worthless discussion right now. The PA would never endorse losing NHL jobs, and the league would never admit to its mistakes. As a fan, it would be nice if the league and PA kept dialogue open after this current mess is done, but that wont happen either.

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12-14-2012, 09:29 AM
  #791
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couldn't disagree more

the NHL talent pool is so diluted it's ridiculous...there is absolutely no reason a guy like Prust should comand the kind of contract he got
The NHLs talent pool has never been deeper. It's the biggest reason for parity. As for Prusts contract, I agree it was at least marginal overpayment, but that had nothing to do with the number of teams. Salary escalation caused by revenue increases drove up his deal. Operating under a $70m cap will do that every time.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:39 AM
  #792
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This is baloney. Its been both. Unless you're suggesting moving hockey to hotbeds like the Arizona desert, South Florida, Atlanta, Columbus, and Nashville were good ideas.

Anyway, its a worthless discussion right now. The PA would never endorse losing NHL jobs, and the league would never admit to its mistakes. As a fan, it would be nice if the league and PA kept dialogue open after this current mess is done, but that wont happen either.
First of all, hockey is very popular in Ohio. The Jackets are not. Bringing up Nashville is not helpful to your argument, because ever since they've been under new management, they've made major, major strides in their revenue pull. It takes time, but they'll get there. I do think moving into those markets were good ideas. The execution has been somewhat lacking. Besides, your whole premise is flawed. Expanding into preexisting hotbeds of the sport is somewhat pointless. Why do you think MLB expanded to Tampa instead of the Carolinas? Or why the NFL looks more at expanding into Toronto instead of San Antonio? Expansion is about expanding the leagues presence and doing that requires going to places where your existence has a greater potential impact.

This discussion is worthless though, I agree there.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:55 AM
  #793
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First of all, hockey is very popular in Ohio. The Jackets are not. Bringing up Nashville is not helpful to your argument, because ever since they've been under new management, they've made major, major strides in their revenue pull. It takes time, but they'll get there. I do think moving into those markets were good ideas. The execution has been somewhat lacking. Besides, your whole premise is flawed. Expanding into preexisting hotbeds of the sport is somewhat pointless. Why do you think MLB expanded to Tampa instead of the Carolinas? Or why the NFL looks more at expanding into Toronto instead of San Antonio? Expansion is about expanding the leagues presence and doing that requires going to places where your existence has a greater potential impact.

This discussion is worthless though, I agree there.
My argument is not so much about where they expanded, but that they shouldnt have expanded. Sure, bad management is a part of it, but 30 teams is too much for the NHL.

Sometimes NHL management and even its fans get these delusions of grandeur about the game. Its a niche sport, its always been a niche sport, and it always will be. It makes little sense to have as many teams as MLB or the NBA.

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12-14-2012, 09:56 AM
  #794
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contraction will never happen...it probably should but it won't. only way teams disappear is if they die natural deaths and the league won't let that happen either.

but the problem imo isn't 30 teams, the problem is having teams in places that can't support hockey. if you had 30 teams in 30 hockey markets it would be fine. relocation of certain teams would do the trick in many ways

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:11 AM
  #795
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All of those arguments are so tired. What does hockey being a niche sport have to do with individual teams in individual cities? Hockey has been successful in plenty of non-hockey markets, so that argument doesn't really work either. Not every city in every sport is going to be a good revenue draw every single year, and that applies to all sports. Once we stop expecting that to be the case, a lot of the illusions people seem to have about this topic go away.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #796
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Everywhere hockey has expanded to, there are youth leagues and a hard core of rabid fans. In almost every case, where teams have struggled it is because of poor management, poor player development, and poor marketing.

You can't expect to build a strong fan base, aside from the hard core, if you have bad teams that struggle and don't make the playoffs year after year.

Many of these places will never be NY, Toronto, or Detroit, but they can succeed if the team does well.

We heard the same tired argument about contraction in baseball. The hockey talent pool is incredibly deep and expanding all the time. Even 50 miles north of NYC, where I live, 20 years ago, there was very little high school hockey. Now, every HS plays.

While Bettman has made made a stupendous mess of this impasse and his idea of negotiation comes from the beat-em over the heads playbook, I give them all the props for expanding the sport's footprint.

Sometimes I think there are only two kinds of people in the world: includers and excluders. As an includer, I support hockey everywhere, do not want to see contraction. In fact, I want expansion to the Pacific NW, and to places in Canada that deserve teams.

Every sport has big market and small market teams, big revenue streams and small revenue streams. Hopefully, if there is ever a new CBA, increasing ownership share to 50% and some sort of revenue sharing will help all teams thrive. But I'm not confident, not because it can't work but because some of the current ownership has not shown that they are the sharpest tacks in the box.

I love the Original Six, became a fan during its last years and remember it fondly. But I don't want to go back to it. Hockey cannot contract: it must find a way to make the current system work. Having the right people as owners is of utmost importance. Though I support the players 100%, I do believe that a 10 year CBA is essential. This sport needs stability to grow, to garner new TV contracts, and to widen its appeal.

More than anything, that is what is maddening about the lockout: the damage done is fast approaching the point where it will become permanent. If we lose another season, hockey may never recover. It will never have credibility beyond us, the hard core crazies.

Someone needs to sit down with these people in the next week and shake them hard. I am as hard core as they come but if another season is lost I will be tempted to cancel my Hockey News, my subscription to XM (the only reason I have satellite radio is to listen to hockey talk, something we never hear, even in the best of times, in the NY area), get rid of the NHL Network on TV, stop checking the boards, etc. etc.

I'm angry. Don't they get it? And that is my rant for today.....at least until another day passes and we come closer to oblivion.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #797
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Did they settle this thing yet? If not I'm going to get back to doing stuff...

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:40 AM
  #798
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All of those arguments are so tired. What does hockey being a niche sport have to do with individual teams in individual cities? Hockey has been successful in plenty of non-hockey markets, so that argument doesn't really work either. Not every city in every sport is going to be a good revenue draw every single year, and that applies to all sports. Once we stop expecting that to be the case, a lot of the illusions people seem to have about this topic go away.
Actually, the only tired argument is pinning all of the league's problems on owner's ineptitude.

The basis of your argument, that hockey can be successful anywhere, is simply false.

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12-14-2012, 10:48 AM
  #799
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Totally and absolutely disagree. Hockey can thrive anywhere with the right structure in place. Could not disagree more.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:58 AM
  #800
Tawnos
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Actually, the only tired argument is pinning all of the league's problems on owner's ineptitude.

The basis of your argument, that hockey can be successful anywhere, is simply false.
Then explain the success of some teams in non-traditional markets and the problems teams have had in established ones. Explain the turnaround in Nashville when new management came in (I don't mean roster management). I'm curious to hear these. And I'm not pinning the leagues problems on anything in this conversation. I'm pinning individual teams problems on them.

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