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Roster Talk '13 — Canada V4.0 (Final Roster Named)

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Old
12-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #901
Lessy
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Originally Posted by Gary83 View Post
It's pretty great to see Wotherspoon make the team when alot of people were writing him off and arguing about Corrado/Dumba.
I haven't seen much of him but I'm very surprised that they'd take 5 lefties and only 1 righty in the top 6 defensemen. I'm assuming that Ryan Murphy will be the 7 though you never know with Spott. Hopefully some of these guys are capable playing their off side because two of them will have to on the regular.

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12-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #902
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Are people still pencilling sheifele on the top line?

I don't think he has the killer instinct needed to play with nuge. Not good enough at cycling the puck or finishing on his chances.

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12-14-2012, 08:57 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Tavares in 2009. I doubt even RNH can top that.
The year after in Tavares' rookie year he put up worse numbers as a rookie than RNH did last year. Don't get me wrong I'm an Oilers fan and would prefer Tavares to RNH but I think RNH is a much better player now than Tavares was in this tournament in 09. Tavares had just turned 18 while RNH is almost 20. Not even close who should be the better player.

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12-14-2012, 09:09 AM
  #904
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My forward lines would be:

Hub RNH Rattie
Ritchie Strome Scheif
Hudon Jenner Danault
Drouin Mac Lipon
Camara

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12-14-2012, 09:15 AM
  #905
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
I haven't seen much of him but I'm very surprised that they'd take 5 lefties and only 1 righty in the top 6 defensemen. I'm assuming that Ryan Murphy will be the 7 though you never know with Spott. Hopefully some of these guys are capable playing their off side because two of them will have to on the regular.
Why are you assuming he'll be 7th? Wotherspoon is the probable 7th defensemen.

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Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
The year after in Tavares' rookie year he put up worse numbers as a rookie than RNH did last year. Don't get me wrong I'm an Oilers fan and would prefer Tavares to RNH but I think RNH is a much better player now than Tavares was in this tournament in 09. Tavares had just turned 18 while RNH is almost 20. Not even close who should be the better player.
That's not true. John Tavare's PPG was higher in his sophmore year, and he actually played a full season. Not to mention RNH had much better players to play with. Tavares was better in his second season to RNH, and he was much better last season. I bet the PPG gap would have been larger if RNH didn't miss a game, his games missed were right in the time where most rookies hit the wall. That's what happened to Tavares, three blocks to the season, the first and last were point-per-game, but the middle had very little production.

Besides, that's irrelevant to this tournement. Tavares had the most dominant tournment since the 1990s, probably since Peter Forsberg in 1993. There's a tonne of great players to play since then, it's nothing against RNH if he can't be better than Tavares.

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12-14-2012, 09:20 AM
  #906
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Here's what I'd like to see...

Huberdeau-RNH-Scheifele
Mackinnon-Strome-Rattie
Camara-Jenner-Ritchie
Hudon-Danault-Lipon
Drouin

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12-14-2012, 09:22 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Why are you assuming he'll be 7th? Wotherspoon is the probable 7th defensemen.
Well Murphy is the worst defensive defensemen on the roster and the best PP quarterback (on the blueline). That's a taylor made 7th defensemen if there ever was one.

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12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
  #908
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I feel good for Murphy that he made your team this time. That kid deserves it, he's had a great junior career with Kitchener. I really like watching him play.

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12-14-2012, 09:24 AM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Well Murphy is the worst defensive defensemen on the roster and the best PP quarterback (on the blueline). That's a taylor made 7th defensemen if there ever was one.
Worst is a relative term. He's good enough to play even-strength minutes, and he will.

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12-14-2012, 09:27 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
That's not true. John Tavare's PPG was higher in his sophmore year, and he actually played a full season. Not to mention RNH had much better players to play with. Tavares was better in his second season to RNH, and he was much better last season. I bet the PPG gap would have been larger if RNH didn't miss a game, his games missed were right in the time where most rookies hit the wall. That's what happened to Tavares, three blocks to the season, the first and last were point-per-game, but the middle had very little production.

Besides, that's irrelevant to this tournement. Tavares had the most dominant tournment since the 1990s, probably since Peter Forsberg in 1993. There's a tonne of great players to play since then, it's nothing against RNH if he can't be better than Tavares.
Yes but Tavares sophomore year started almost two years after he played in this tournament so there's zero correlation. Again I'm not debating who the better player is (I think it's Tavares) but I'll take a 19 year-old RNH over a freshly turned 18 year-old Tavares and it's not close. It's not irrelevant to this tournament at all. Tavares was awesome in 09 but wasn't even the top scorer for Canada in the tournament. Players on the 05 team were far more dominant but didn't put up the same numbers because of the incredible depth.

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12-14-2012, 09:29 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Worst is a relative term. He's good enough to play even-strength minutes, and he will.
We'll agree to disagree. Who's worse defensively on that Canadian blueline than Murphy? I don't see anyone who you can make an argument for. He's on this team for his PP abilities and offensive upside and for good reason. I just think he's a disaster waiting to happen if he gets a regular shift against an elite team.

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12-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Why are you assuming he'll be 7th? Wotherspoon is the probable 7th defensemen.
I think everyone here figures he'll be the 7th guy. Wotherspoon and Reinhart will form to make a "shut-down" pairing, while you've got harrington and ouelett to play a two way game, contributing more offense and hamilton and rielly to run wild and bring the offence.

I should use your line... "don't make any claims unless you can back them up with facts".

Where is your fact that stats "Wotherspoon is the probable 7th defenseman" because from what I've seen SS hasn't said a thing.


Quote:
That's not true. John Tavare's PPG was higher in his sophmore year, and he actually played a full season. Not to mention RNH had much better players to play with. Tavares was better in his second season to RNH, and he was much better last season. I bet the PPG gap would have been larger if RNH didn't miss a game, his games missed were right in the time where most rookies hit the wall. That's what happened to Tavares, three blocks to the season, the first and last were point-per-game, but the middle had very little production.

Besides, that's irrelevant to this tournement. Tavares had the most dominant tournment since the 1990s, probably since Peter Forsberg in 1993. There's a tonne of great players to play since then, it's nothing against RNH if he can't be better than Tavares.

I don't know how you think Tavares at 18 and not yet drafted is going to be better than RNH with a full NHL season under his belt.

RNH is faster and stronger than Tavares was at 18, there is no doubt about this. JT wouldn't have been able to put up 50 points in the 08/09 NHL season had be played.

Secondly, Tavares didn't even win the scoring title during the tourney in 09, his own teammate Cody Hodgson out-scored him. While JT was consistent and clutch etc. he wasn't anywhere near as dominant as Forsberg in 93. There have been other players since 93 and certainly since 09 who have been as good. I would argue Evgeny Kuznetsov was that good.

Keep in mind this isn't a "who's better now" or "who projects to be the better NHLer", because I myself would give that edge to JT, but RNH definitely has more game now than JT did in 09.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:32 AM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Yes but Tavares sophomore year started almost two years after he played in this tournament so there's zero correlation. Again I'm not debating who the better player is (I think it's Tavares) but I'll take a 19 year-old RNH over a freshly turned 18 year-old Tavares and it's not close. It's not irrelevant to this tournament at all. Tavares was awesome in 09 but wasn't even the top scorer for Canada in the tournament. Players on the 05 team were far more dominant but didn't put up the same numbers because of the incredible depth.
I don't see the point at all about what's happened in the NHL since then. There's no reason to assume RNH will be better than the dominant performance Tavares put up. I don't care what player you'd take in the NHL, the chance for RNH to have a better tournement than Tavares aren't that good.

It's irrelevant that Tavares wasn't the top scorer, he was better than Hodgson. There's a reason he won MVP; and no one complained about, over Hodgson. Maybe the 2005 team together was more dominant, but no individual player was as good as Tavares in 2009,. What do you think RNH is going to do, put up 25 points?

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12-14-2012, 09:36 AM
  #914
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Here's how I'd like the forwards to line up:

Huberdeau-RNH-Rattie
Hudon-Strome-Schieffle
Drouin-MacKinnon-Ritchie
Danault-Jenner-Lipon
Camara

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:40 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I don't see the point at all about what's happened in the NHL since then. There's no reason to assume RNH will be better than the dominant performance Tavares put up. I don't care what player you'd take in the NHL, the chance for RNH to have a better tournement than Tavares aren't that good.

It's irrelevant that Tavares wasn't the top scorer, he was better than Hodgson. There's a reason he won MVP; and no one complained about, over Hodgson. Maybe the 2005 team together was more dominant, but no individual player was as good as Tavares in 2009,. What do you think RNH is going to do, put up 25 points?
RNH is a better player now than Tavares was in 09; it's not even debatable. Last year RNH had better numbers in the NHL than Tavares did the year after he played in the WJC. You are also claiming that 18-year-old Tavares is a better player than 18-year-old Crosby. Canada didn't have the offensive depth in 09 that they have this year or in 05. That lead to Tavares getting tons of gravy offensive and PP time whenever they needed a goal. This year and in 05 Canada had 3 lines that can score on a regular basis.

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12-14-2012, 09:41 AM
  #916
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If Huberdeau and Rattie/Schiefle can finish the backdoor chances RNH is going to be feeding them, or Canada draws lots of penalties, RNH will put up pretty big numbers in this tournament.

He isn't as talented as Tavares is at creating his own offense (as Tavares isn't as talented a play maker as RNH) so he'll need his linemates to be going.

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12-14-2012, 09:43 AM
  #917
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RNH is more of a playmaker then scoring goals type of player. Tavares was the opposite of RNH.

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12-14-2012, 09:43 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Worst is a relative term. He's good enough to play even-strength minutes, and he will.
7th defensemen usually do see some Even Strength minutes but they won't be counted on for them.

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12-14-2012, 09:44 AM
  #919
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Now with the team made, time to make them in NHL 13 and win the gold.

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12-14-2012, 09:45 AM
  #920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
RNH is a better player now than Tavares was in 09; it's not even debatable. Last year RNH had better numbers in the NHL than Tavares did the year after he played in the WJC. You are also claiming that 18-year-old Tavares is a better player than 18-year-old Crosby. Canada didn't have the offensive depth in 09 that they have this year or in 05. That lead to Tavares getting tons of gravy offensive and PP time whenever they needed a goal. This year and in 05 Canada had 3 lines that can score on a regular basis.
That's all irrelevant. You're assuming because RNH is better, he will be more dominant, have a better tournement. You keep saying I'm claiming this, claming that, without actually adressing what I'm saying.

Tavares was more dominant in the 2009 tournement, than anyone since Forsberg. I don't care that players that were better than Tavares in 2009 have played or will play in this tournment, doesn't mean they did/will have a better tournement than Tavares in 2009.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
I think everyone here figures he'll be the 7th guy. Wotherspoon and Reinhart will form to make a "shut-down" pairing, while you've got harrington and ouelett to play a two way game, contributing more offense and hamilton and rielly to run wild and bring the offence.

I should use your line... "don't make any claims unless you can back them up with facts".

Where is your fact that stats "Wotherspoon is the probable 7th defenseman" because from what I've seen SS hasn't said a thing.





I don't know how you think Tavares at 18 and not yet drafted is going to be better than RNH with a full NHL season under his belt.

RNH is faster and stronger than Tavares was at 18, there is no doubt about this. JT wouldn't have been able to put up 50 points in the 08/09 NHL season had be played.

Secondly, Tavares didn't even win the scoring title during the tourney in 09, his own teammate Cody Hodgson out-scored him. While JT was consistent and clutch etc. he wasn't anywhere near as dominant as Forsberg in 93. There have been other players since 93 and certainly since 09 who have been as good. I would argue Evgeny Kuznetsov was that good.

Keep in mind this isn't a "who's better now" or "who projects to be the better NHLer", because I myself would give that edge to JT, but RNH definitely has more game now than JT did in 09.
I hate when someone says "eveyone" here because no only is that almost always not true (It's not in this case), it's irrelevant anyway. What matters is what Team Canada and Steve Spott do, and Spott is almost suredly going to have Murphy paired with either Harrington or Reinhart. Spott's missed having a big man opposite of Murphy in Kitchener, he'll relish having it here. Either Reinhart/Harrington will work and the one that isn't with them will form up with Ouellet on the shutdown pairing.

Secondly, Harrington is a primarliy defensive defensemen, he doesn't play a "two-way game". He's here to play on the shutdown pairing, guys like Murphy, Rielly, and Hamilton are here to play with the high ends forwards.

People are getting drawn into this ******* "We need more shutdown pairings, who cares about offense, let the forwards" mentality. Murphy will play even-strength with the top lines, there is simply no chance; given who Spott is, that he won't.

On the Tavares-RNH, you're entirely misrepresenting my argument as something it's not. Where did I say Tavares was a better player predraft than Tavares is 1 year removed from his draft? I said it'll be tough for RNH to be as dominant as Tavares was, which is absolutely true. The World Juniors haven't seen someone dominate like Tavares since Jason Allison or Peter Forsberg.

Already adressed the scoring title issue, it doesn't matter, Hodgson had 1 more point, Tavares was the better/more valuable player. And Forsberg beat up on Japan, that's why he got 31 points. Don't let the point totals fool you. Besides, I said he was the most dominant since Forsberg.

I know what this is about, and regardless if RNH is a better player at 19 than Tavares at 18, it's unlikely RNH will dominate the tournement like Tavares did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
7th defensemen usually do see some Even Strength minutes but they won't be counted on for them.
Not much. Ellis in his 17 year old season would see time against the weaker teams and as a fill in when playing better teams if players needed a rest. Probably had less ES time than his PP time. Spott's not going to leave his best offensive defensemen on the bench when he trusts him defensively.

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12-14-2012, 09:46 AM
  #921
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Originally Posted by PumpkinBomb View Post
Are people still pencilling sheifele on the top line?

I don't think he has the killer instinct needed to play with nuge. Not good enough at cycling the puck or finishing on his chances.
I agree, I would rather a more natural finisher. Huberdeau Nugent-Hopkins fire-hydrant would still be a dominant line though. Scheifele had never really come close to impressing me internationally, I hope he isn't just given first line position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I don't see the point at all about what's happened in the NHL since then. There's no reason to assume RNH will be better than the dominant performance Tavares put up. I don't care what player you'd take in the NHL, the chance for RNH to have a better tournement than Tavares aren't that good.

It's irrelevant that Tavares wasn't the top scorer, he was better than Hodgson. There's a reason he won MVP; and no one complained about, over Hodgson. Maybe the 2005 team together was more dominant, but no individual player was as good as Tavares in 2009,. What do you think RNH is going to do, put up 25 points?
You're overrating Tavares quite a bit here. There were people who thought that Hodgson was the real MVP, including some of the media at TSN. Also, from the 2005 team at forward I would say that Bergeron, Getzlaf and Carter were comparable but simply had less prominent roles. Crosby was a better player at the time but didn't have a great tournament. There shouldn't be any debate that Nugent-Hopkins is a better player right now than Tavares was in 2009. That doesn't necessarily mean that he will have the better tournament, but it's not at all unreasonable to expect it.

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12-14-2012, 09:47 AM
  #922
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I think at this point Canada is going to be so strong up front on the top lines that my interest is in looking at the 3rd and 4th.

A lot of people are saying Brett Ritchie on the 2nd line to keep the chemistry with Strome going, but I really am excited at the possibility of having Camara-Jenner-Ritchie on the 3rd line and just banging the hell out of people. All 3 of those guys will absolutely kill people. And people were worried that we were going to be soft...

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12-14-2012, 09:50 AM
  #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
That's all irrelevant. You're assuming because RNH is better, he will be more dominant, have a better tournement. You keep saying I'm claiming this, claming that, without actually adressing what I'm saying.

Tavares was more dominant in the 2009 tournement, than anyone since Forsberg. I don't care that players that were better than Tavares in 2009 have played or will play in this tournment, doesn't mean they did/will have a better tournement than Tavares in 2009.



I hate when someone says "eveyone" here because no only is that almost always not true (It's not in this case), it's irrelevant anyway. What matters is what Team Canada and Steve Spott do, and Spott is almost suredly going to have Murphy paired with either Harrington or Reinhart. Spott's missed having a big man opposite of Murphy in Kitchener, he'll relish having it here. Either Reinhart/Harrington will work and the one that isn't with them will form up with Ouellet on the shutdown pairing.

Secondly, Harrington is a primarliy defensive defensemen, he doesn't play a "two-way game". He's here to play on the shutdown pairing, guys like Murphy, Rielly, and Hamilton are here to play with the high ends forwards.

People are getting drawn into this ******* "We need more shutdown pairings, who cares about offense, let the forwards" mentality. Murphy will play even-strength with the top lines, there is simply no chance; given who Spott is, that he won't.

On the Tavares-RNH, you're entirely misrepresenting my argument as something it's not. Where did I say Tavares was a better player predraft than Tavares is 1 year removed from his draft? I said it'll be tough for RNH to be as dominant as Tavares was, which is absolutely true. The World Juniors haven't seen someone dominate like Tavares since Jason Allison or Peter Forsberg.

Already adressed the scoring title issue, it doesn't matter, Hodgson had 1 more point, Tavares was the better/more valuable player. And Forsberg beat up on Japan, that's why he got 31 points. Don't let the point totals fool you. Besides, I said he was the most dominant since Forsberg.

I know what this is about, and regardless if RNH is a better player at 19 than Tavares at 18, it's unlikely RNH will dominate the tournement like Tavares did.
How does this make any sense? If RNH is a better player at 19 than Tavares was at 18, then I would expect RNH to dominate the tournament as much or more than Tavares did.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:51 AM
  #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Bisson View Post
I think at this point Canada is going to be so strong up front on the top lines that my interest is in looking at the 3rd and 4th.

A lot of people are saying Brett Ritchie on the 2nd line to keep the chemistry with Strome going, but I really am excited at the possibility of having Camara-Jenner-Ritchie on the 3rd line and just banging the hell out of people. All 3 of those guys will absolutely kill people. And people were worried that we were going to be soft...
Would be an excellent energy line that could certainly fill the net as well. I like the looks of that one actually and I wasn't a fan of how soft the team was initially.

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12-14-2012, 09:52 AM
  #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Bisson View Post
I think at this point Canada is going to be so strong up front on the top lines that my interest is in looking at the 3rd and 4th.

A lot of people are saying Brett Ritchie on the 2nd line to keep the chemistry with Strome going, but I really am excited at the possibility of having Camara-Jenner-Ritchie on the 3rd line and just banging the hell out of people. All 3 of those guys will absolutely kill people. And people were worried that we were going to be soft...
Lipon and Danault can both give out big hits too.

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