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Old
12-13-2012, 11:20 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
I think Subban was much more dominating than Beaulieu is, even if their points pace is similar.
5v5, definitely. Just from a pure points perspective, he's doing it without having DD or trotter or whoever as an AHL super-star. Given how hard it is to come by goals for this team, it's pretty impressive.

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12-13-2012, 11:38 PM
  #52
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5v5, definitely. Just from a pure points perspective, he's doing it without having DD or trotter or whoever as an AHL super-star. Given how hard it is to come by goals for this team, it's pretty impressive.
Subban's abillity to win battles is exceptional. The guy's compete level is off the charts, IMO. He's such a unique player, I think comparisons to Beaulieu are like venn diagarams with pretty small overlaps. Yes they're offensive D with, in different ways, exceptional skating and offensive upside. Beyond that... to me, nomatter how I project them looking forward, they're just fundamentally different players.

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12-14-2012, 12:20 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Subban's abillity to win battles is exceptional. The guy's compete level is off the charts, IMO. He's such a unique player, I think comparisons to Beaulieu are like venn diagarams with pretty small overlaps. Yes they're offensive D with, in different ways, exceptional skating and offensive upside. Beyond that... to me, nomatter how I project them looking forward, they're just fundamentally different players.
Definitely. Not sure if you got the impression from my post that I thought otherwise.

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12-14-2012, 12:26 AM
  #54
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The dumbest possible thing we could conclude right now is that since Beaulieu's point pace thus far is statistically equivalent to Subban's at this stage, we should feel free to trade Subban as we now have Beaulieu.

That argument is truly dim. I think we can expect to hear it on L'Antichambre in the near-future.

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12-14-2012, 12:44 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The dumbest possible thing we could conclude right now is that since Beaulieu's point pace thus far is statistically equivalent to Subban's at this stage, we should feel free to trade Subban as we now have Beaulieu.

That argument is truly dim. I think we can expect to hear it on L'Antichambre in the near-future.
Forget about the future. Pretty sure Gaston Therrien said a gazillion times already on RDS that Subban is exchange-able because of Beaulieu in the past.

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12-14-2012, 12:54 AM
  #56
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I've already had a friend try to convince me that it's "not a big deal to trade Subban" because "he's a locker room cancer AND we have Beaulieu coming up"
/facepalm

Needless to say I don't speak about hockey with him anymore hahaha.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:04 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Odelein24 View Post
I've already had a friend try to convince me that it's "not a big deal to trade Subban" because "he's a locker room cancer AND we have Beaulieu coming up"
/facepalm

Needless to say I don't speak about hockey with him anymore hahaha.
lol

Subban defensive game is just so good, I think he is sooo underrated defensively, I know he makes a few big errors once in a while, but its usually just by him trying to be too aggressive offensively. As someone else said, his 1 on 1 battles are off the chart, and his puck battles along the boards is great, he probably is the best or one of the best in the league in winning puck battles and clearing the puck on pks.

As for Beaulieu, his offesive skills are off the chart, better than Subban's imo (I think Subban is abit overrated offensively). But I don't think Beaulieu will come close to being as good as Subban in his own end. Whenver I watch Beaulieu I see alot of Mike Green, maybe not as good but more aggressive/tougher.

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12-14-2012, 09:28 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
lol

Subban defensive game is just so good, I think he is sooo underrated defensively, I know he makes a few big errors once in a while, but its usually just by him trying to be too aggressive offensively. As someone else said, his 1 on 1 battles are off the chart, and his puck battles along the boards is great, he probably is the best or one of the best in the league in winning puck battles and clearing the puck on pks.

As for Beaulieu, his offesive skills are off the chart, better than Subban's imo (I think Subban is abit overrated offensively). But I don't think Beaulieu will come close to being as good as Subban in his own end. Whenver I watch Beaulieu I see alot of Mike Green, maybe not as good but more aggressive/tougher.
not a chance

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12-14-2012, 09:36 AM
  #59
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Realistically, I think Beaulieu will end up as a 2nd or 3rd pairing D-man that plays on the first power play pairing. He will have a similar career as players such as Derek Morris and Keith Ballard, hopefully his offense will maintin because both saw their numbers decline after the initial 5 or so years.

On the other hand if his defensive game improves, not necessarily into something amazing, simply as a player that is not prone to mistakes and is able to properly use his size to his advantage than he will have the chance to become a good number 2.

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12-14-2012, 09:45 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
5v5, definitely. Just from a pure points perspective, he's doing it without having DD or trotter or whoever as an AHL super-star. Given how hard it is to come by goals for this team, it's pretty impressive.
Yeah, Subban was one of a few younger players on an older or at least more skilled veteran team. This year the Dogs have a ton of young players breaking in at once so some growing pains have come as expected.

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12-14-2012, 09:47 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
Realistically, I think Beaulieu will end up as a 2nd or 3rd pairing D-man that plays on the first power play pairing. He will have a similar career as players such as Derek Morris and Keith Ballard, hopefully his offense will maintin because both saw their numbers decline after the initial 5 or so years.

On the other hand if his defensive game improves, not necessarily into something amazing, simply as a player that is not prone to mistakes and is able to properly use his size to his advantage than he will have the chance to become a good number 2.
That's quite a range of predictions. Realistically a 3rd pairing D-man? That would be disappointing as just last year his potential wasn't realistically seen as low as a bottom pairing D. Just because it takes time for prospects to develop to me doesn't warrant setting predictions at rock bottom.

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12-14-2012, 09:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
lol

Subban defensive game is just so good, I think he is sooo underrated defensively, I know he makes a few big errors once in a while, but its usually just by him trying to be too aggressive offensively. As someone else said, his 1 on 1 battles are off the chart, and his puck battles along the boards is great, he probably is the best or one of the best in the league in winning puck battles and clearing the puck on pks.

As for Beaulieu, his offesive skills are off the chart, better than Subban's imo (I think Subban is abit overrated offensively). But I don't think Beaulieu will come close to being as good as Subban in his own end. Whenver I watch Beaulieu I see alot of Mike Green, maybe not as good but more aggressive/tougher.
I think Beaulieu in time will be above average defensively if he can A-fill in his body to 210-215lbs and be as strong on his skates as Subban and not just use his height as leverage B-learn which plays he can and can't make in the pros(this is a normal process for skilled d-men moving up the chain). He will probably take 2 years AHL versus 1 for Subban because 1-he is not as physically mature 2-he is a bit younger/late birthday 3-there are more young guys right ahead of him(Subban Diaz Weber Emelin St.Denis?) just breaking in.

I don't like the Green comparison because the Hbas will develop his defensive game before he gets to the NHL unlike Green who came up early and was given the green light to go run and gun with Ovechkin Semin Backstrom and co. The "Beaulieu's defensive game is bad" thing is way overblown like it was for Subban...young offensive d-men until they have 2-3 years in the NHL will make blunders with the puck that will cost goals, this is normal and doesn't put them on a path to just be a 3rd pair PP specialist or a "Mike Green"(Green has actually made huge strides defensively since Boudreau was fired).

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12-14-2012, 09:56 AM
  #63
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Comparing seasons with Subban is dandy but are all forgetting he was:

1. Runner up for rookie of the year, barely edged out by Logan Couture
2. 1st all-star team
3. An impressive +46 !!
4. Finished with a .7 ppg almost going a point per game after a slow start
5. Instead of playing in the playoffs with the ,Dogs he did it with the Canadiens and was an absolute stud shutting down Crosby and Ovie (yes I know not all by himself)

That year, Subban broke out in a big way, can Beaulieu do that? Sure, but he has a lot of ground to make up for. I didn't see many games of the 'Dogs this year but last night he looked like the Beaulieu we saw and fell in love with in pre-season. Hope he keeps this up and we got an other gem.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think Beaulieu in time will be above average defensively if he can A-fill in his body to 210-215lbs and be as strong on his skates as Subban and not just use his height as leverage B-learn which plays he can and can't make in the pros(this is a normal process for skilled d-men moving up the chain). He will probably take 2 years AHL versus 1 for Subban because 1-he is not as physically mature 2-he is a bit younger/late birthday 3-there are more young guys right ahead of him(Subban Diaz Weber Emelin St.Denis?) just breaking in.

I don't like the Green comparison because the Hbas will develop his defensive game before he gets to the NHL unlike Green who came up early and was given the green light to go run and gun with Ovechkin Semin Backstrom and co. The "Beaulieu's defensive game is bad" thing is way overblown like it was for Subban...young offensive d-men until they have 2-3 years in the NHL will make blunders with the puck that will cost goals, this is normal and doesn't put them on a path to just be a 3rd pair PP specialist or a "Mike Green"(Green has actually made huge strides defensively since Boudreau was fired).
Good points

specially with him being one of few 19 year olds playing in the AHL.

Who do you guys think will make it to the NHL first, Bealieau or Tinordi?

IMO it is a lot tougher for defensive d-men to make an impact in the NHL right away vs an offensive D-men, just generally speaking.

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12-14-2012, 10:31 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Definitely. Not sure if you got the impression from my post that I thought otherwise.
No no, just commenting generally on Subban be a tough player to compare almost anyone to. He's just a rare package that one.

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12-14-2012, 10:36 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Good points

specially with him being one of few 19 year olds playing in the AHL.

Who do you guys think will make it to the NHL first, Bealieau or Tinordi?

IMO it is a lot tougher for defensive d-men to make an impact in the NHL right away vs an offensive D-men, just generally speaking.
Great question. IMO both of the them would benefit from staying in the A for a full season at a minimum. In general, I'd be more worried about rushing a guy like Tinordi than a guy like Beaulieu. As you say, offensive D often peak fairly young (for D) in terms of stats anyway compared to defensive D. A guy like Tinordi in particular you want to be a physical force, so it's worth waiting for him to grow into his body and get used to dominating physically in the A before guys start running him in the NHL. In the Habs case, though, they're desperate for what Tinordi brings and given his surprisingly consistent play (for a rookie) so far this year, they may be tempted to bring him up sooner than they might otherwise. Really, they're both guys who I think cry out for organizational patience. Rushing prospects is perhaps the most obviously stupid mistake an org can make, and yet some teams just keep on doing it. Hope MB isn't tempted to take that route.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:37 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Good points

specially with him being one of few 19 year olds playing in the AHL.

Who do you guys think will make it to the NHL first, Bealieau or Tinordi?

IMO it is a lot tougher for defensive d-men to make an impact in the NHL right away vs an offensive D-men, just generally speaking.
It's a tough question as they are pretty close right now. Both need to develop physically and add 15-20lbs over the next 2-3 years. Tinordi plays a safer game so he may get a call up this year in case of injuries(assuming the lock out ends), I think both should start next year AHL also barring huge spikes in development.

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12-14-2012, 10:41 AM
  #68
habs03
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not a chance
Really?

maybe its me, I just find Subban a bit overrated offensively, he has a really good shot, and good passing skills, but can't really qb a PP.

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12-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #69
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Really?

maybe its me, I just find Subban a bit overrated offensively, he has a really good shot, and good passing skills, but can't really qb a PP.
I don't agree with this at all. He might not be a Markov or a Gonchar on the PP but he can adequately qb a pp just fine, only more of a shooter than a passer. But that's not to say he doesn't have good vision or anything. Mark Streit was also a shooter, does that mean he isn't one of the best PPQB in the NHL?

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12-14-2012, 11:03 AM
  #70
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I don't agree with this at all. He might not be a Markov or a Gonchar on the PP but he can adequately qb a pp just fine, only more of a shooter than a passer. But that's not to say he doesn't have good vision or anything. Mark Streit was also a shooter, does that mean he isn't one of the best PPQB in the NHL?
When Markov wasn't ready, I was looking to see if he would be able to qb the pp, with Weber being the shooter, but realyl didn't work out.

But maybe I'm being unfair, its tough to qb a pp at a young age.

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12-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #71
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When Markov wasn't ready, I was looking to see if he would be able to qb the pp, with Weber being the shooter, but realyl didn't work out.

But maybe I'm being unfair, its tough to qb a pp at a young age.
That's precisely it I think. People are down on him because last year's PP was the worst we've had in forever but I think it also has something to do with the forwards being atrocious in their own right, and the fact that he had trouble hitting the net didn't help either. The good news is that he was very good at even strength, but I fully expect him to rebound offensively and on the PP as he finished very strong and simplified his game a ton - also started using his wrist shot more. Howitzers are great but when that's all you do it becomes predictable at some point which is what happened. He's still so young and already very good, which is why I think people are somewhat overly critical of him sometimes. (I'm not singling you out here)

I will say this though: Beaulieu will probably be a better PPQB than Subban. He is just such a natural on the powerplay, makes it look easy.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 12-14-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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12-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #72
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Nah he just got drafted a year later due to being born in December instead of Sept 15 and prior.
So he's younger than most rookies in the AHL, right?

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:28 AM
  #73
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That's precisely it I think. People are down on him because last year's PP was the worst we've had in forever but I think it also has something to do with the forwards being atrocious in their own right, and the fact that he had trouble hitting the net didn't help either. The good news is that he was very good at even strength, but I fully expect him to rebound offensively and on the PP as he finished very strong and simplified his game a ton - also started using his wrist shot more. Howitzers are great but when that's all you do it becomes predictable at some point which is what happened. He's still so young and already very good, which is why I think people are somewhat overly critical of him sometimes. (I'm not singling you out here)

I will say this though: Beaulieu will probably be a better PPQB than Subban. He is just such a natural on the powerplay, makes it look easy.
Agree with the whole post, and specially with the last part.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:42 AM
  #74
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Anybody else heard Langevin on tva sports said Tinordi now weigth 230 and he was heavier at the start of the season ?

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12-14-2012, 12:56 PM
  #75
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My impressions of the 2nd 1/2 of the game (which is all I saw) is that the Bulldogs lack any high end talent up front. With the exception of one dangle by Holland, everything else was grinder grade play.

Other notes:
Tinordi was solid, but not spectacular
Beaulieu was creative, not as bad as I expected in his end.
Gallager is a real competitor, and has good speed.
Nash was turning it over a lot.
St. Denis was solid but unspectacular.
Commodore was skinnier than I remember.
Leblanc has the speed and execution that will make him an NHL 3rd liner.

It was nice to see some live hockey.

Pedneault was a useless appendage in that broadcast, bringing nothing to the table, no insight, no perpective. Same ol', same ol'.

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