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Old
12-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #551
etherialone
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It looks like there was truth in the "loose vote" rumor or possibly so. It appears that the PA could indeed be calling for a disclaimer vote which if approved by 30% or more of its constituency will go through.

Tense times.

Here is a thingy about disclaimer votes. Bleck.

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12-14-2012, 01:35 PM
  #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
It looks like there was truth in the "loose vote" rumor or possibly so.
Umm, not really....your rumor of a 'loose vote' was in reference to the current offer from the NHL and letting the players vote on it...not in regards to authorizing a disclaimer of interest. So, please stop with the insinuation that you have insider information....it's misleading and if we want bogus rumors, there are other sites for that.

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12-14-2012, 01:37 PM
  #553
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Quote:
Aaron Ward @aaronward_nhl
NHLPA Executive Board voted last night,to give players a vote to AUTHORIZE Exec Board to chose to proceed on Disclaimer of Interest

No indication as to IF/WHEN vote even occurs.This is simply AUTHORIZATION. No more,no less.


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12-14-2012, 01:38 PM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
Umm, not really....your rumor of a 'loose vote' was in reference to the current offer from the NHL and letting the players vote on it...not in regards to authorizing a disclaimer of interest. So, please stop with the insinuation that you have insider information....it's misleading and if we want bogus rumors, there are other sites for that.
Your insinuation is completely false.

I have said and continue to say that I am hearing things third hand and that I am just passing along what I hear. In that case I said that I had heard that a vote was being put forth and assumed that it was regarding the offer which in a way it is if you understand what a disclaimer of interest vote is/does or is intended to do.

Here is a quote of what I said:

"That said yes, what I had heard was going to take place was a showing of hands on where things are sort of thing. I can tell you that there has been a call out to every rep this evening but who knows what went on, not me".

I stand by it.

Bogus? Totally gnarly thing to accuse me of bro.



[MOD]


Last edited by etherialone: 12-14-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: We don't talk about that ;)
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12-14-2012, 01:43 PM
  #555
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411636

"But deep is one thing. Demolition is another. C'mon - a 16-4 playoff run? Four straight 3-0 series leads? A 10-1 record on the road? No use trying to explain that degree of dominance. Sometimes, after countless years when things go mostly wrong - 45 of them in all in LA - everything just goes right. That's what happened to the Kings in the spring of 2012."

"The Stanley Cup is supposed be the hardest trophy in the world to win. The Kings made it look as tough as winning a grade school participant ribbon (not to brag, but I have several). It was the most impressive playoff run I've ever witnessed."

I want to see them prove they're as good as they looked in their Cup run, or prove it was mostly just getting hot at the right time. Win, lose, or dr...shootout, I just want to watch the Kings defend their Cup.

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12-14-2012, 01:53 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
In that case I said that I had heard that a vote was being put forth and assumed that it was regarding the offer which in a way it is if you understand what a disclaimer of interest vote is/does or is intended to do.
Well, one of us doesn't understand, I got this quote from TSN in regards to what a disclaimer of interest in intended to do:

"If the membership allows the authorization, the NHLPA would have the authority to terminate its right to represent the players could potentially inform the National Hockey League with a declaration that the union no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent."

How you get that it's actually about voting on the NHL CBA offer is beyond me.

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12-14-2012, 01:55 PM
  #557
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For those of you who need a clarification as to what a "disclaimer of interest" is in regard to unions (I certainly did), here is a quote and a link that fully explains it in terms us sports fans can understand.

Quote:
Gabriel Feldman: The disclaimer of interest is a less formal process that is initiated by the union itself, and it is a statement that the union no longer wishes to represent the players as their collective-bargaining representative. So it is, in essence, the union walking away from the players.

Decertification requires a formal petition to the National Labor Relations Board and then a formal vote in front of the NLRB where 50 percent of the players have to choose to no longer be represented by the union. So decertification, in essence, is the players walking away from the union.

So there are formal distinctions between the two processes. Decertification is a more formal process that takes longer. The disclaimer is a less formal process that is much quicker.

The theory is that both processes dissolve the union.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/spo...terest-is.html

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12-14-2012, 01:59 PM
  #558
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This sounds like a threat by the NHLPA in an attempt to squeeze the owners in offering a better deal....because if this disclaimer of interest vote goes through, GAME OVER.

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12-14-2012, 02:02 PM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
This sounds like a threat by the NHLPA in an attempt to squeeze the owners in offering a better deal....because if this disclaimer of interest vote goes through, GAME OVER.
You are absolutely right and wrong at the same time.

You are right about the threat to squeeze the NHL. However, you are wrong about GAME OVER...more like GAME ON. Read the article. The NBAPA disclaimed it's interest and they were playing 10 days later.

Sometimes a squeeze play works. It will be interesting to see how this latest wrinkle plays out.

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12-14-2012, 02:04 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
You are absolutely right and wrong at the same time.

You are right about the threat to squeeze the NHL. However, you are wrong about GAME OVER...more like GAME ON. Read the article. The NBAPA disclaimed it's interest and they were playing 10 days later.

Sometimes a squeeze play works. It will be interesting to see how this latest wrinkle plays out.
OK, but explain to me how that works....because I read you can't have a CBA without the union being in place. So what happens with the CBA if this vote goes through?

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12-14-2012, 02:08 PM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
OK, but explain to me how that works....because I read you can't have a CBA without the union being in place. So what happens with the CBA if this vote goes through?
And a sports league cannot operate in this day and age without a CBA. Things like RFA, Drafts, Salary Cap, Set Entry Level deals, etc all become illegal.

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12-14-2012, 02:09 PM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
Well, one of us doesn't understand, I got this quote from TSN in regards to what a disclaimer of interest in intended to do:

"If the membership allows the authorization, the NHLPA would have the authority to terminate its right to represent the players could potentially inform the National Hockey League with a declaration that the union no longer represents the players as a bargaining agent."

How you get that it's actually about voting on the NHL CBA offer is beyond me.
I absolutely encourage you to read what I specifically wrote regarding this matter. I have quoted it in my last response to you and it should clarify my position. [MOD]

I only said that I had heard there would be a vote and assumed it was about the deal but I also said "a showing of hands on where things are sort of thing. I can tell you that there has been a call out to every rep this evening but who knows what went on, not me".

So it ended up being about the DOI, turns out they did ask for a showing of hands by the reps which I was 100% right about saying was taking place.

As for the DOI itself it can and has been used as a ploy to force a decision or delay a process and does have something to do with what is being offered and how a resolution to the process could be obtained.

If it is approved and ends up in the courts as it would have to before allowing players to rep themselves (which would likely not be allowed to happen but could if it went through) then the answer to the proposal would be a resounding no I would guess.

I mean it says right in your TSN quote that it could potentially (two words that show speculation on an outcome) let the NHL know that the NHLPA isn't representing the players etc. I understand what a DOI is enough to know that it is a strategic ploy designed to force the negotiating process to change in one way or another and the reason that you would want to use this device is that you want to amend what is being offered or the manner in which you negotiate said offer.

Either way I understand what it going on enough to where I am confortable with what I wrote and feel that I have explained myself well enough.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 12-14-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: let's drop this please and thank you (to both)
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12-14-2012, 02:11 PM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
OK, but explain to me how that works....because I read you can't have a CBA without the union being in place. So what happens with the CBA if this vote goes through?
I think what the NBAPA did was dissolve through disclaimer and then reformulated into a reincarnation in order to do the CBA.

So basically its a leverage tactic (a threat) as you surmised...to get things going, and to feel in control (even for a short while).

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12-14-2012, 02:13 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
And a sports league cannot operate in this day and age without a CBA. Things like RFA, Drafts, Salary Cap, Set Entry Level deals, etc all become illegal.
That is why this tactic is being employed by the NHLPA...in an attempt to gain leverage against the NHL.

These NHL owners, however, are a different breed then the NBA owners (as a whole, because some owners own both a basketball team and a hockey team in the same city). The NHL owners, as a whole, seem much more willing to tank a season then the NBA owners ever did.

So the NHLPA may be walking right into the owner's hands if they dissolve. Could backfire.

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12-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
That is why this tactic is being employed by the NHLPA...in an attempt to gain leverage against the NHL.

These NHL owners, however, are a different breed then the NBA owners (as a whole, because some owners own both a basketball team and a hockey team in the same city). The NHL owners, as a whole, seem much more willing to tank a season then the NBA owners ever did.

So the NHLPA may be walking right into the owner's hands if they dissolve. Could backfire.
Yep. This is poor timing by the PA, IMO. If you wanted to do this, you do it a)earlier, so that the effect of this will have time to sink in or b)later once the season has been nuked. To do this now (if they follow through, it seems the vote was only to put the option on the table, not to do it just yet) may just end up putting a spike in any possible deal, thereby ending the season without the players (who stand to lose more, IMO) getting one last chance to end this thing. So long as it stays a negotiating tactic until after the season has been lost, it's fine, but if they do this and it gets stuck in court or something and the season is lost to it, I will be royally pissed off for really the first time in this lockout.

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Old
12-14-2012, 02:21 PM
  #566
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Heres hoping Greenie and Westy have it right and don't end up just following the sheep to the shearer.

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12-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Yep. This is poor timing by the PA, IMO. If you wanted to do this, you do it a)earlier, so that the effect of this will have time to sink in or b)later once the season has been nuked. To do this now (if they follow through, it seems the vote was only to put the option on the table, not to do it just yet) may just end up putting a spike in any possible deal, thereby ending the season without the players (who stand to lose more, IMO) getting one last chance to end this thing. So long as it stays a negotiating tactic until after the season has been lost, it's fine, but if they do this and it gets stuck in court or something and the season is lost to it, I will be royally pissed off for really the first time in this lockout.
I think that there are simply too many extenuating circumstances for the courts to allow for the dissolving of the PA at this point without there being at least another attempt by both sides to get something done. The courts do have the right to order both sides back to the table without a ruling and even set a timeline for both parties to come up with something.

The scary part is that both parties don't have to come up with anything and can send it right back to the courts again and so on. I think that in this case we are looking at the DOI being used as a leverage ploy by the PA in order to force a few of the finer points to get done because they are so close to having a deal.

If they were further apart then I could understand them being at a "we've done all we can" situation and calling for a DOI under those circumstances would be something to worry about but to me it seems like when you are talking about how close to a deal you are to want to throw in the towel now just doesn't make sense.

But of course, that could go the other way too.

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12-14-2012, 04:30 PM
  #568
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If there is not a deal by next week. This season is gone(personal opinion).


Last edited by damacles1156: 12-14-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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12-14-2012, 05:30 PM
  #569
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So this is interesting.

Jesse Spector
‏@jessespector 2m The NHL files an unfair labor practice charge with the NLRB and a class action complaint in fed court to try to prevent an NHLPA disclaimer.

https://twitter.com/jessespector/sta...06138478538753


Well, here I go again but I have heard that the reason for the DOI is that the PA hopes that it will have the exact same effect on things that happened in the NBA and that it was a tool that the PA has been considering for a little bit of time for what its worth.

I have also heard that there is a real possibility that it will work and finally, it is possible that the league may find out the according to the language in the last CBA and in every players contract since 04's CBA that the lock out may indeed not be legal.

I have an NHL contract from pre 04's CBA (1984) and there isn't any language regarding the Collective Bargaining Agreement. I have asked for a copy of a contract that ended in 09 from a player friend of mine or if he can find anything in it regarding the CBA.

If I get a copy I will post both of them here.

I have asked an agent where the language is in each contract that would outline the CBA's impact on an NHL contract and haven't heard back yet but will post what I get when I get it.

I can't see the courts throwing out the league's right to hold a lock out but it is being discussed in court right now (Not right this second to the best of my knowledge but it is what is in front of the court) or is part of what is being discussed anyways.

This is interesting and could force an end to the lockout in one way or the other.


Last edited by etherialone: 12-14-2012 at 06:01 PM.
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12-14-2012, 06:45 PM
  #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
So this is interesting.

Jesse Spector
‏@jessespector 2m The NHL files an unfair labor practice charge with the NLRB and a class action complaint in fed court to try to prevent an NHLPA disclaimer.

https://twitter.com/jessespector/sta...06138478538753


Well, here I go again but I have heard that the reason for the DOI is that the PA hopes that it will have the exact same effect on things that happened in the NBA and that it was a tool that the PA has been considering for a little bit of time for what its worth.

I have also heard that there is a real possibility that it will work and finally, it is possible that the league may find out the according to the language in the last CBA and in every players contract since 04's CBA that the lock out may indeed not be legal.

I have an NHL contract from pre 04's CBA (1984) and there isn't any language regarding the Collective Bargaining Agreement. I have asked for a copy of a contract that ended in 09 from a player friend of mine or if he can find anything in it regarding the CBA.

If I get a copy I will post both of them here.

I have asked an agent where the language is in each contract that would outline the CBA's impact on an NHL contract and haven't heard back yet but will post what I get when I get it.

I can't see the courts throwing out the league's right to hold a lock out but it is being discussed in court right now (Not right this second to the best of my knowledge but it is what is in front of the court) or is part of what is being discussed anyways.

This is interesting and could force an end to the lockout in one way or the other.
Thanks for your insight and updates. Very informative! Not sure why a couple posters on here are upset with the informative posts you have made, dont let them slow you down.

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12-14-2012, 07:06 PM
  #571
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Thanks for your insight and updates. Very informative! Not sure why a couple posters on here are upset with the informative posts you have made, dont let them slow you down.
Thanks RB.

Aint nothing gonna breaka my stride.


Last edited by etherialone: 12-14-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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12-14-2012, 07:17 PM
  #572
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Thanks for your insight and updates. Very informative! Not sure why a couple posters on here are upset with the informative posts you have made, dont let them slow you down.
I've learned not to take what people say too serious during these times. Everyone is emotional.

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12-14-2012, 08:19 PM
  #573
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Thanks RB.

Aint nothing gonna breaka my stride.
Nobody's gonna slow me down, oh-no
I got to keep on movin'

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12-14-2012, 08:44 PM
  #574
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TORONTO (December 14, 2012): Statement from the NHLPA regarding NHL’s Complaint and Unfair Labor Practice Charge:
“The NHLPA has just received a copy of the National Labor Relations Board charge and has not yet been served with the lawsuit. However, based on what we’ve learned so far, the NHL appears to be arguing that Players should be stopped from even considering their right to decide whether or not to be represented by a union. We believe that their position is completely without merit.”
......

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12-14-2012, 09:45 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
......
Its like watching a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllly slow game of texas hold em.

The obvious counter to the DOI is exactly what the NHL has done and then the next move is on the PA who will counter the order (if it comes) or file for decert and then the NHL can re-file their complaint and before we know it we are at Xmas and then we are done with the early gamesmanship and can have a deal signed.

I do agree with the PA in this instance, they have the right to form a union and a right to agree what happens with it. But then the NHL is doing whatever it can to stop the PA from finding a judge to from saying that the lock out is an unfair practice blah blah blah.

Best case scenario, let the courts decide an equitable CBA ala the NBA, that will make both sides equally happy and unhappy at the same time.


It will also let everyone save the same amount of face and get us back to playing hockey again and quickly too.

I wonder if .......... Nah.


Last edited by etherialone: 12-14-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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