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Old
12-14-2012, 09:29 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If the cap shrinks to 60m, Connauten, Schroeder, Lack and of course Kassian will be on the team. Possibly Kadri too . One more ELC Dman would have been great (damnit Shultz) as well.


Agree with Raymond, Malhotra walking (although I hope Raymond gets traded this year), and Ballard being moved for picks. Altogether, it should be enough to re-sign Edler, Higgins and Lapierre. With that, I still like this team's chances moving forward.
Kadri doesn't play defense. How people think he would be a good fit here under AV I have no idea.

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12-14-2012, 09:32 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kadri doesn't play defense. How people think he would be a good fit here under AV I have no idea.
I posted this in the Luongo thread as well. My new take on the whole scenario. The season gets killed, Theodore becomes UFA opening up a spot for Luongo and Bob's your uncle....Luongo is once again a Florida Panther.

Done.

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12-14-2012, 11:11 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kadri doesn't play defense. How people think he would be a good fit here under AV I have no idea.


He's got solid possession stats for someone that doesn't play defense. Limited sample I know, but he was behind only Grabovski in his brief stint in the pros. There's more to this player than what he seems.



The Sedins aren't known as defensive stalwarts either but AV runs with them all the time. Once a player earns the trust of the coach, like the twins and like Booth, this seems less a problem.

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12-14-2012, 11:33 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
He's got solid possession stats for someone that doesn't play defense. Limited sample I know, but he was behind only Grabovski in his brief stint in the pros. There's more to this player than what he seems.



The Sedins aren't known as defensive stalwarts either but AV runs with them all the time. Once a player earns the trust of the coach, like the twins and like Booth, this seems less a problem.
The Sedins are fine defensively. They started out their career in a defensive role and worked their way up to where they are today.

Hodgson might be a better example, although hopefully without the off-ice troubles.

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12-14-2012, 11:43 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The Sedins are fine defensively. They started out their career in a defensive role and worked their way up to where they are today.

Hodgson might be a better example, although hopefully without the off-ice troubles.



The Sedins didn't start in a defensive role. They played 2nd line ice during the WCE era. That team was offense-first. Where they gained the trust of AV is during the Nonis/Luongo era. Meaning, they didn't start out strong defensively, in fact foot speed was an issue there, but became better defensively as they progressed in their careers.



Hodgson is a slower skater than Kadri also. Nor was Hodgson a strong possession player by the stats. I don't see a parallel here.

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12-14-2012, 11:48 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Sedins didn't start in a defensive role. They played 2nd line ice during the WCE era. That team was offense-first. Where they gained the trust of AV is during the Nonis/Luongo era. Meaning, they didn't start out strong defensively, in fact foot speed was an issue there, but became better defensively as they progressed in their careers.


Hodgson is a slower skater than Kadri also. Nor was Hodgson a strong possession player by the stats. I don't see a parallel here.
Defensively,

Sedins >>>> Kadri/Hodgson. Kadri may be better defensively than Hodgson, but my only point was that if Hodgson could be successful on the third line than so could Kadri.

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12-14-2012, 11:49 AM
  #307
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Cap hits aren't being rolled back, so it'll still be a $5.33M cap hit.
So cap hits aren't rolled back but there's still a 12% rollback in total salary over the life of the contract?

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12-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Defensively,

Sedins >>>> Kadri/Hodgson. Kadri may be better defensively than Hodgson, but my only point was that if Hodgson could be successful on the third line than so could Kadri.


Yes I know the Sedins are better - but they didn't start out that way. More than likely, Hodgson will improve to become better defensively. So will Kadri. The difference is that early on their careers, Kadri is showing to be a good possession player (of which defense is a part) while Hodgson did not. So if Hodgson was "successful" enough to be on the 3rd line, I'm not sure why people (Y2K) would have an issue with Kadri's defensive game?

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12-14-2012, 12:00 PM
  #309
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Yes I know the Sedins are better - but they didn't start out that way.
The Sedins were solid defensive players and playing full time at 19, they did start out that way.


Last edited by Scurr: 12-14-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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12-14-2012, 12:30 PM
  #310
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The Sedins were solid defensive players and playing full time at 19, they did start out that way.


The fact they played full-time at 19 doesn't mean they were solid defensively. In fact, many felt they were rushed into the league due to their weak skating and low strength.


What made you think they were solid defensively when they started? Their +/-? Their extensive use on the PK? Critical Dzone draws? Takeaways? Exclusive ice in the dying minutes? etc...



Further, if they were solid (I'm taking this to mean average NHL level) defensively when they started out, then they became excellent in the Nonis/Luongo era correct? Because they improved from their initial standing, so that must mean they were high-end defensively by this stage. Or at the very least above average?

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12-14-2012, 12:41 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The fact they played full-time at 19 doesn't mean they were solid defensively. In fact, many felt they were rushed into the league due to their weak skating and low strength.


What made you think they were solid defensively when they started? Their +/-? Their extensive use on the PK? Critical Dzone draws? Takeaways? Exclusive ice in the dying minutes? etc...



Further, if they were solid (I'm taking this to mean average NHL level) defensively when they started out, then they became excellent in the Nonis/Luongo era correct? Because they improved from their initial standing, so that must mean they were high-end defensively by this stage. Or at the very least above average?
They way I see it they started off being given defensive responsibilities in their early years, and once they had shown they could do that they were given more offensive opportunities, and succeeded wildly with them.

My only gripe was that you said Vigneault is fine with the Sedins, so he would be fine with Kadri, which is absurd, as they are far superior defensively as well as offensively.

*I'm not saying Vigneault wouldn't play Kadri, I thunk he would, it's using the Sedins as a benchmark for that assumption.

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12-14-2012, 12:49 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The fact they played full-time at 19 doesn't mean they were solid defensively. In fact, many felt they were rushed into the league due to their weak skating and low strength.
Two rookies on the same line playing significant minutes would normally get eaten up defensively, the twins never did. They've always salvaged a good +/-, even in years with poor goaltending and/or underwhelming offensive production.

I've never heard the argument that the twins were rushed into the league. They had already been dominating men in professional hockey and had at least modest success in the NHL their first season.

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What made you think they were solid defensively when they started? Their +/-? Their extensive use on the PK? Critical Dzone draws? Takeaways? Exclusive ice in the dying minutes? etc...
Anytime two rookies can come into the league, play on the same line and hold their own it's impressive.

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Further, if they were solid (I'm taking this to mean average NHL level) defensively when they started out, then they became excellent in the Nonis/Luongo era correct? Because they improved from their initial standing, so that must mean they were high-end defensively by this stage. Or at the very least above average?
The Sedins improved defensively as they got faster and stronger. IMO some of that has eroded over the years as they've been more willing to trade chances. They've gone from average to above average and back imo.

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12-14-2012, 12:57 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Two rookies on the same line playing significant minutes would normally get eaten up defensively, the twins never did. They've always salvaged a good +/-, even in years with poor goaltending and/or underwhelming offensive production.

I've never heard the argument that the twins were rushed into the league. They had already been dominating men in professional hockey and had at least modest success in the NHL their first season.


Gotcha, so +/- has returned as the defensive standard? Interesting to note that they finished +23 and +14 respectively in a year where their defense was often questioned... Wonder why?



Really? You never heard Tony G go on about how they got rushed and that they should have increased their strength before coming over? He's said more than once.



Quote:
Anytime two rookies can come into the league, play on the same line and hold their own it's impressive.


Sure it is. But does that mean that they were NHL average defensively? No.



Quote:
The Sedins improved defensively as they got faster and stronger. IMO some of that has eroded over the years as they've been more willing to trade chances. They've gone from average to above average and back imo.


I think you would be hard pressed to have fans outside of the VAN fanbase agree that the Sedins were ever even above average defensively, let alone average when they started out.



Just to be clear: Their ability to keep the puck in the offensive zone and cycle isn't considered defensive prowess is it?

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12-14-2012, 01:01 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
They way I see it they started off being given defensive responsibilities in their early years, and once they had shown they could do that they were given more offensive opportunities, and succeeded wildly with them.

My only gripe was that you said Vigneault is fine with the Sedins, so he would be fine with Kadri, which is absurd, as they are far superior defensively as well as offensively.

*I'm not saying Vigneault wouldn't play Kadri, I thunk he would, it's using the Sedins as a benchmark for that assumption.


The Sedins aren't defensive stalwarts, yet when they were racking up the goals against in the playoffs, AV kept trotting them out there. Meaning, he understands that he needs to play them - regardless of their defensive prowess. It would be the same with Kadri.


What are the Sedins right now? Average defensively? If so, Kadri would have to show that he can't get to average for there to be a great disparity between the two. The Sedins didn't start out average, IMO.

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12-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Sedins aren't defensive stalwarts, yet when they were racking up the goals against in the playoffs, AV kept trotting them out there. Meaning, he understands that he needs to play them - regardless of their defensive prowess. It would be the same with Kadri.


What are the Sedins right now? Average defensively? If so, Kadri would have to show that he can't get to average for there to be a great disparity between the two. The Sedins didn't start out average, IMO.
I'd say the Sedin's are good defensively, it's just that they aren't asked to play defensively at all.

If we didn't operate a strict zone start strategy and play a fairly wide open offensive game, the Sedin's wouldn't be thought of as 'only average defensively', but it would also take away from the 90-100 point players they've turned into, and bring them back around 70-80 points.

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12-14-2012, 01:20 PM
  #316
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Gotcha, so +/- has returned as the defensive standard? Interesting to note that they finished +23 and +14 respectively in a year where their defense was often questioned... Wonder why?
+/- is not the standard, it's a stat that can be used in context to judge defensive ability. I'm sure you can see the difference between the twins being +13 in a season where they score a ton on a great team with great goaltending and a season when they score modestly on a poor team with average goaltending.

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Really? You never heard Tony G go on about how they got rushed and that they should have increased their strength before coming over? He's said more than once.
Nope.

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Sure it is. But does that mean that they were NHL average defensively? No.
No, it doesn't give a definitive answer. Neither does your recollection of events.

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I think you would be hard pressed to have fans outside of the VAN fanbase agree that the Sedins were ever even above average defensively, let alone average when they started out.
Why would I ask fans of other teams about the ability of players who I've watched their whole career?

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Just to be clear: Their ability to keep the puck in the offensive zone and cycle isn't considered defensive prowess is it?
No, of course not.

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12-14-2012, 02:30 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
+/- is not the standard, it's a stat that can be used in context to judge defensive ability. I'm sure you can see the difference between the twins being +13 in a season where they score a ton on a great team with great goaltending and a season when they score modestly on a poor team with average goaltending.


Subjective conjecture. +/- is anything but definitive. I ask you to point out how they you were utilized and you give me generalities.


I asked questions per a "scouting report", remember how that goes Scurr? And you give inconclusive stats.


Quote:
Nope.
Well he has and I value his opinion in this regard.



Quote:
No, it doesn't give a definitive answer. Neither does your recollection of events.

So why contend my recollection? Aren't you using your own recollection to offer a counter-point? I have a feeling this is heading into "agree to disagree" territory.



Quote:
Why would I ask fans of other teams about the ability of players who I've watched their whole career?

I've watched them their whole career as well, and we disagree. What now? What makes your opinion an authority?


Your stance also assumes a fan of another team cannot evaluate a VAN player better than you can, which is also faulty logic. If their reasoning is sound, the fact that you've watched the twins more has little bearing.

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12-14-2012, 02:35 PM
  #318
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I've watched them their whole career as well, and we disagree. What now? What makes your opinion an authority?
No, but I did give practical and stats based backing for my position, while all you've given is your opinion. You're holding my argument to a standard that you haven't even attempted to achieve.

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12-14-2012, 02:41 PM
  #319
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I ask you to point out how they you were utilized and you give me generalities.
Quote:
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In fact, many felt they were rushed into the league due to their weak skating and low strength.

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12-14-2012, 02:55 PM
  #320
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No, but I did give practical and stats based backing for my position, while all you've given is your opinion. You're holding my argument to a standard that you haven't even attempted to achieve.

"Practical" stats lol.


Would it make a difference if I posted qualcomp, Dzone usage, takeaways vs defensively average players? Would that change your opinion? I doubt it. Frankly, you've waffled back and forth between stats and "scouting report" arguments, as it suits you, that I'm just not sure it's worth my time.


As you were. Agree to disagree.

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12-14-2012, 03:01 PM
  #321
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"Practical" stats lol.
Practical and stats based arguments.

I have not waffled on stat and scouting based arguments, I've argued that both are necessary in player evaluation.

Agree to disagree. In the future it would be nice if you held your own arguments to the same standard that you hold everyone elses to.

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12-14-2012, 03:06 PM
  #322
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Practical and stats based arguments.

I have not waffled on stat and scouting ßbased arguments, I've argued that both are necessary in player evaluation.

Agree to disagree. In the future it would be nice if you held your own arguments to the same standard that you hold everyone elses to.


With certain posters it makes no sense to do so because they won't change their opinion regardless. Waste of time.

I look forward to reading the next scouting report. Should be enlightening.

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12-14-2012, 03:32 PM
  #323
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With certain posters it makes no sense to do so because they won't change their opinion regardless. Waste of time.
Funny, I thought it was because you enjoyed poking holes in other peoples arguments rather than actually trying to make your own.

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12-14-2012, 04:04 PM
  #324
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Apparently some posters here forget that both sedins started out on the 3rd line with lots of penalty killing, especially with henrik. Henrik did a decent job of it and has been used on a PK line ever since, isnt he on the 2nd pk now? This gives him a shift to rest after he most likely was on the ice when the opponent got a penalty. Seems lots of Canucks fans cannot even be knowledgable of their own team, and we wonder why other fans cant stand us?

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12-14-2012, 04:09 PM
  #325
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Apparently some posters here forget that both sedins started out on the 3rd line with lots of penalty killing, especially with henrik. Henrik did a decent job of it and has been used on a PK line ever since, isnt he on the 2nd pk now? This gives him a shift to rest after he most likely was on the ice when the opponent got a penalty. Seems lots of Canucks fans cannot even be knowledgable of their own team, and we wonder why other fans cant stand us?
Nope, the Sedins don't do any penalty killing anymore.
It gives them a chance to rest, while giving the bottom 6 guys (who are good defensively) more ice time.

Last season we had Kesler, Burrows, Hansen, Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgins, Raymond, and (for a short time) Pahlsson doing the penalty killing.

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