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12-14-2012, 04:33 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
Apparently some posters here forget that both sedins started out on the 3rd line with lots of penalty killing, especially with henrik. Henrik did a decent job of it and has been used on a PK line ever since, isnt he on the 2nd pk now? This gives him a shift to rest after he most likely was on the ice when the opponent got a penalty. Seems lots of Canucks fans cannot even be knowledgable of their own team, and we wonder why other fans cant stand us?


Henrik Sedin hasn't killed a penalty in 5 years.

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12-14-2012, 06:29 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post


Henrik Sedin hasn't killed a penalty in 5 years.
well he does hit the ice in the last few seconds of many penatlies but its true that he isnt used to kill them.

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12-14-2012, 07:13 PM
  #328
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Kadri doesn't play defense. How people think he would be a good fit here under AV I have no idea.
Neither does Toronto. He is young and can certainly be taught defensive play. Hodgson was hardly exquisite in this area, yet performed well. Kadri is uniquely versatile playmaker and if develops well, could be a variant of Hemsky. Whether or not he reaches that status remains to be seen but I'd say he is worth the risk, especially seeing we do not need both Luongo and Schneider. I'd prefer Lupul obviously but that may not be an option.

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12-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Neither does Toronto. He is young and can certainly be taught defensive play. Hodgson was hardly exquisite in this area, yet performed well. Kadri is uniquely versatile playmaker and if develops well, could be a variant of Hemsky. Whether or not he reaches that status remains to be seen but I'd say he is worth the risk, especially seeing we do not need both Luongo and Schneider. I'd prefer Lupul obviously but that may not be an option.
The difference between Hodgson's defense and Kadri's is hodgson knew what to do and had a track record of good defensive play at the junior level. He just can't keep up at the NHL level.

Kadri has never been a good two way player at any level and is beyond risky with the puck.

I've warmed up a bit to possibly taking him in a package, but definitely need more than Bozak and a protected 1st to go ahead on it.

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12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think next year we'll have a lot of prospects challenging for roster spots. Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder, Connauton, and Corrado all have a decent shot at making the team. That will give us a lot more cap flexibility if we let Raymond and Malhotra walk, and trade Ballard for picks.
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.025m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Zack Kassian ($0.870m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Chris Tanev ($0.900m) / Kevin Connauton ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $54,604,167; BONUSES: $310,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,705,833

I do love how everyone assumes we are completely doomed if the cap drops significantly. I suspect your right and look at that. We'll survive.

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12-14-2012, 07:22 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The difference between Hodgson's defense and Kadri's is hodgson knew what to do and had a track record of good defensive play at the junior level. He just can't keep up at the NHL level.

Kadri has never been a good two way player at any level and is beyond risky with the puck.

I've warmed up a bit to possibly taking him in a package, but definitely need more than Bozak and a protected 1st to go ahead on it.
Oh, I agree. Ideally, if we could get both Lupul and Kadri, I'm all over it. Finn is another prospect I like, thus if he and Kadri are packaged, plus whatever else. That is somewhat enticing.

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12-14-2012, 07:52 PM
  #332
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Not sure how much value there is in comparing Sedins rookie season w/ Kadris. There's a 10 yr difference, different teams/coaches etc.

Here is a good article detailing rookie usages for every NHL team: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/26/rookie-usage-charts

Basically, very few forward rookies are entrusted with tough mins. Of those few who are, even fewer play them effectively. They're not trusted with tough mins cause they're generally not good defensivly. Most rookies play some form of sheltered mins. It won't be any different for Kadri if he were traded to Van. Teams have to bring young guys onto their teams otherwise they'll end up with a bunch of old ineffective dudes.

The difference between Van and many other NHL teams is, they have the roster to shelter these rookies (both on back end and forward positions). Why not take advantage of this while they have it?

He might struggle with defense now, but he'll learn just as Kassian is learning. As Bleach has pointed out, he's had strong possession #'s on a very poor possession team. Until then, Canucks have the roster to help him out so he doesn't sink them.

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12-14-2012, 08:34 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post


Henrik Sedin hasn't killed a penalty in 5 years.
He killed one last season.

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12-14-2012, 08:53 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
He killed one last season.

Yap, Boston game when there were penalties galore.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:40 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.025m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Zack Kassian ($0.870m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Chris Tanev ($0.900m) / Kevin Connauton ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $54,604,167; BONUSES: $310,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,705,833

I do love how everyone assumes we are completely doomed if the cap drops significantly. I suspect your right and look at that. We'll survive.
I dont mean to be a downer here, but Burrows will be making I think 4.5 mil, and Edler still needs a raise.

Lapierre and Higgins will also need to be resigned. It is not all doom and gloom, I think it is dooable, but more caution needs to be used as well.

This to me is why it is a fools errand to be after some of the guys people want on here.

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12-14-2012, 09:54 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I dont mean to be a downer here, but Burrows will be making I think 4.5 mil, and Edler still needs a raise.

Lapierre and Higgins will also need to be resigned. It is not all doom and gloom, I think it is dooable, but more caution needs to be used as well.

This to me is why it is a fools errand to be after some of the guys people want on here.
Keeping Higgins, Lapierre and Edler means Booth, Ballard, Alberts, Raymond and Malhotra will have to be moved if the cap drops to 60 the following year. Gillis and Gilman might really try to squeeze Booth in, but then we have little to no room to improve, and are likely to keep a few ready-to-play prospects in light of cheaper alternatives, and not dressing our best team or developing our prospects as well as we can. Even when I root for someone like Kovalchuk in a trade, this kind of stuff is going through my mind, but that's why I'm glad I'm a lowly fan, my opinion on fantasy trades has no effect on how my team is made up.

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12-15-2012, 12:44 AM
  #337
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Funny, I thought it was because you enjoyed poking holes in other peoples arguments rather than actually trying to make your own.

I could care less about making an argument to contest an opinion that doesn't change regardless of the information in front of it. Good luck with that.


In a general sense, I thought it would be common knowledge that rookies seldom if ever come out of the can being NHL average defensively, but hey, forget NHL history. Let's follow a subjective narrative because someone has watched these player since they came into the league, like that is somehow unique in anyway? Wondeful.

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12-15-2012, 04:21 AM
  #338
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I think the Canucks tried to keep Edler and failed to sign him.

I do not think any of the farmhands are ready to step in and take a regular spot on the Canucks. Certainly, Lack should not be pencilled in to back up. Kassian might be rushed along, and Tanev deserves a look, but there isn't a third line center or a regular defenseman hiding on the wolves roster.

Even though I intensely doubt Gillis has time and desire to trade Luongo (in the event of a season) he might be looking to fill holes. Kesler's camp saying he is months away isn't good news. If Gillis cannot find a free agent to sign, he might be forced to look for help via trade. Has anyone offered a center off their roster for Luongo? Immediate help doesn't mean prospects or fringe players, it means your number two or even the number one on your team! Can Toronto offer a viable center? Do they have one?

Abdelkader or Latendresse for Luongo would be great. I think it'll turn out to be Goc, though.

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12-15-2012, 10:42 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
In a general sense, I thought it would be common knowledge that rookies seldom if ever come out of the can being NHL average defensively, but hey, forget NHL history. Let's follow a subjective narrative because someone has watched these player since they came into the league, like that is somehow unique in anyway? Wondeful.
Rookies seldom come to the NHL at 19 having already dominated in the SEL. The twins are unique players... Kadri is not.

Maybe the problem is we have different definitions of being average defensively? I'm definitely not arguing that they were selke candidates.

I made the comment about watching them their whole careers in response to you saying I should ask another fan base about them... lets not pretend I was throwing that around like it was something special.


Last edited by Scurr: 12-15-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old
12-15-2012, 10:54 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
I think the Canucks tried to keep Edler and failed to sign him.

I do not think any of the farmhands are ready to step in and take a regular spot on the Canucks. Certainly, Lack should not be pencilled in to back up. Kassian might be rushed along, and Tanev deserves a look, but there isn't a third line center or a regular defenseman hiding on the wolves roster.

Even though I intensely doubt Gillis has time and desire to trade Luongo (in the event of a season) he might be looking to fill holes. Kesler's camp saying he is months away isn't good news. If Gillis cannot find a free agent to sign, he might be forced to look for help via trade. Has anyone offered a center off their roster for Luongo? Immediate help doesn't mean prospects or fringe players, it means your number two or even the number one on your team! Can Toronto offer a viable center? Do they have one?

Abdelkader or Latendresse for Luongo would be great. I think it'll turn out to be Goc, though.
Really? Why not?

I mean, if there's a better option, like a veteran backup on an affordable contract, then sure, that allows Lack to get more playing time in the AHL. But if it means having to give up any assets, I'd sooner give the backup spot to Lack.

There's little doubt he could handle it. It's just whether it's better for him to get more playing time, or whether it's alright for him to make the jump and sit on the bench for stretches at a time.

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Old
12-15-2012, 11:01 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
Not sure how much value there is in comparing Sedins rookie season w/ Kadris. There's a 10 yr difference, different teams/coaches etc.

Here is a good article detailing rookie usages for every NHL team: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/26/rookie-usage-charts

Basically, very few forward rookies are entrusted with tough mins. Of those few who are, even fewer play them effectively. They're not trusted with tough mins cause they're generally not good defensivly. Most rookies play some form of sheltered mins. It won't be any different for Kadri if he were traded to Van. Teams have to bring young guys onto their teams otherwise they'll end up with a bunch of old ineffective dudes.

The difference between Van and many other NHL teams is, they have the roster to shelter these rookies (both on back end and forward positions). Why not take advantage of this while they have it?

He might struggle with defense now, but he'll learn just as Kassian is learning. As Bleach has pointed out, he's had strong possession #'s on a very poor possession team. Until then, Canucks have the roster to help him out so he doesn't sink them.




Agree with the bold. It's the way it has always been. You seldom if ever see a rookie come onto the scene and put up _average_ NHL defense. That's mid-level defense taking into account every NHL player, including the defensive stalwarts around the league. The Sedins were no different.



Kadri is already ahead of the game by having strong possession numbers, where Hodgson did not.

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12-15-2012, 11:13 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Kadri is already ahead of the game by having strong possession numbers, where Hodgson did not.
You're putting too much stock in Kadri's possession numbers - sample size is too small.

Kadri is a turnover machine at the AHL level, doesn't backcheck with any determination or consistency and is still regarded as a poor defensive player even at the AHL level.

Any way you slice it, this is a poor two-way player at this point and he doesn't project as anything more than a one-dimensional offensive threat, similar to a Mike Ribeiro. That's fine if he's putting up 50-60 plus point seasons, anything less and he hurts you more than he helps.

I take Kadri as part of a package if he's not valued as a 1st rd pick. If it's the Leafs 1st or Kadri, I take the 1st without hesitation...

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12-15-2012, 11:15 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.025m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Zack Kassian ($0.870m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Chris Tanev ($0.900m) / Kevin Connauton ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $54,604,167; BONUSES: $310,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,705,833

I do love how everyone assumes we are completely doomed if the cap drops significantly. I suspect your right and look at that. We'll survive.
It will be interesting to see where the cap gets set. Right now there are 6 teams over $65M, and another 10 over $60M. And those 16 teams are pretty much the 16 richest teams ... are they really going to handicap themselves cap wise. I assume the new CBA will deal with this ...

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Old
12-15-2012, 11:34 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
You're putting too much stock in Kadri's possession numbers - sample size is too small.

Kadri is a turnover machine at the AHL level, doesn't backcheck with any determination or consistency and is still regarded as a poor defensive player even at the AHL level.

Any way you slice it, this is a poor two-way player at this point and he doesn't project as anything more than a one-dimensional offensive threat, similar to a Mike Ribeiro. That's fine if he's putting up 50-60 plus point seasons, anything less and he hurts you more than he helps.

I take Kadri as part of a package if he's not valued as a 1st rd pick. If it's the Leafs 1st or Kadri, I take the 1st without hesitation...




As would I. I don't think I proposed the 1st vs Kadri comparison?


I have stated on multiple times that the sample is small (50 games).



Booth was also a poor two-way player to you DTS. When there are at least two articles breaking down his underlying numbers proving otherwise. All I'm saying is that the eye alone may not be enough to judge Kadri's actual impact on the ice. That he isn't a poor possession player like Hodgson was... who the Canucks chose to centre their 3rd line for a better part of last season.

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12-15-2012, 11:37 AM
  #345
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You can be an excellent posession player and still be horrible defensively. Kadri well would could be in that category. Booth certainly is.

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12-15-2012, 11:52 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
As would I. I don't think I proposed the 1st vs Kadri comparison?


I have stated on multiple times that the sample is small (50 games).



Booth was also a poor two-way player to you DTS. When there are at least two articles breaking down his underlying numbers proving otherwise. All I'm saying is that the eye alone may not be enough to judge Kadri's actual impact on the ice. That he isn't a poor possession player like Hodgson was... who the Canucks chose to centre their 3rd line for a better part of last season.
David Booth isn't a good two-way player though. He was destroyed defensively while on the Panthers - on the ice for more goals against/minute than any other player on the team.

Possession numbers only tell part of the story. There are 10 skaters on the ice at even strength - that means each player only represents 10% of what happens in terms of events. Hence why these numbers tend to swing wildly from year to year as players have different linemates and head to head matchups.

It's easy to see why Kadri has been refered to as a poor defensive player at every level. He turns the puck over a ton and doesn't give a consistent effort when he doesn't have it. This kid projects as a one-dimensional, offensive threat and PP specialist. These players can still be valuable, as long as they produce solid offense.

Due to his draft position, Burke will try to sell him as a 1st rd pick type asset. Due to this, I would hesitate making him a centrepiece in the deal.

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12-15-2012, 12:06 PM
  #347
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You can be an excellent posession player and still be horrible defensively. Kadri well would could be in that category. Booth certainly is.


I'm not sure Booth is "horrible" defensively. Since I consider defense a 200ft endeavor. Also, what do you think of this article: http://canucksarmy.com/2012/4/11/can...wo-way-threats


I understand your point though. Just because a player can drive play forward, and keep the puck moving to the opposite end of the ice, doesn't mean he's good when he's in his own end. It's great if you have both though, that was more my point. Kadri has the one, and he needs to really work hard on the other.



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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
David Booth isn't a good two-way player though. He was destroyed defensively while on the Panthers - on the ice for more goals against/minute than any other player on the team.

Possession numbers only tell part of the story. There are 10 skaters on the ice at even strength - that means each player only represents 10% of what happens in terms of events. Hence why these numbers tend to swing wildly from year to year as players have different linemates and head to head matchups.

It's easy to see why Kadri has been refered to as a poor defensive player at every level. He turns the puck over a ton and doesn't give a consistent effort when he doesn't have it. This kid projects as a one-dimensional, offensive threat and PP specialist. These players can still be valuable, as long as they produce solid offense.

Due to his draft position, Burke will try to sell him as a 1st rd pick type asset. Due to this, I would hesitate making him a centrepiece in the deal.


Two-way? Booth is strong (see article). Dzone play? You have a case.



I wouldn't want Kadri as a centerpiece to the deal. The 1st is far more valuable, I agree.



You're right that possession numbers only tell part of the story - but it's a significant part IMO. Like Tiranis has stated, you _could_ be a good possession player and still be poor defensively, in your own end. For Kadri, the question becomes: can he drive play enough to not be in his zone as often, thereby limited the need for him to be strong defensively? I think there's something to that.

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12-15-2012, 12:55 PM
  #348
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I am incredibly over Toronto as a potential trading partner. Yes, I know their need is greatest, but there is still minimal return for us. Kadri as a centerpiece? Pass. Kulemin or Mac as a center piece? Pass. Bozak as a center piece? Not even close. The only piece I'd not be ashamed about coming back as a main piece, that Toronto would deal, is Lupul, and he is UFA.

Cap factors (if it goes down to 60 or even 65) make this trade outcome look much, much worse, as Toronto doesn't have/won't surrender the high end futures pieces that some of the people insist on.

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12-15-2012, 01:03 PM
  #349
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Two-way? Booth is strong (see article). Dzone play? You have a case.
When I think two-way, I think good in the offensive zone as well as defensive zone(see Higgins, Hansen, Burrows, Kesler). Booth often looks lost in his own end and I would never want this guy on the ice protecting a 1 goal lead or killing a penalty.

Not a fan of that Charron article. David Booth was stapled to Ryan Kesler last season and it's going to have a big impact on his possession numbers. Switch Kesler with Jordan Schroeder and David Booth gets thouroughly destroyed IMO.

Charron didn't reference the fact Booth was on the ice for more goals against/minute than every single one of his teammates his last year in Florida. His numbers were atrocious.

If you're good defensively and have Booth's excellent skating and strength you see time on the PK. The fact he doesn't is a testament to how poorly he thinks the game IMO. I just can't watch this guy play and come away thinking he's the 'two-way force' Cam Charron is trying to sell...

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12-15-2012, 02:54 PM
  #350
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I dont mean to be a downer here, but Burrows will be making I think 4.5 mil, and Edler still needs a raise.

Lapierre and Higgins will also need to be resigned. It is not all doom and gloom, I think it is dooable, but more caution needs to be used as well.

This to me is why it is a fools errand to be after some of the guys people want on here.
Aye, but look at the cap space available there. Burrows is an extra 2m and I doubt Edler signs for more than 5m, especially in a 60m cap world. Higgins and Lapierre are not liable to receive raises for that very reason.

Personally, I do not see the cap falling this significantly. 65m perhaps but not 58-60m

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