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NHLPA exec board asks players to empower PA dissolution; NHL files w/Fed court+NLRB

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12-14-2012, 05:29 PM
  #76
skywarp75
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
The PA signing Fehr, was the start of bad faith, so to speak...that being said, the owners and GM's do make some real bonehead decisions, and the PA and the agents seem to wanna hold them accountable...
I disagree. If the rules state that you can sign Hossa or Kovalchuk or Weber til the end of their career and get a lower cap hit, and your OWNER is willing to spend money to win, then thats what you do.

as a player, you want to ensure the most money, so you demand a retirement contract. This only applies to elite players that can make a real difference. You cant blame an owner for trying to win...

and im not blaming these players for demanding these contracts, im blaming a bad rule in the old CBA that needs to be fixed, which is exactly what Bettman said.

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12-14-2012, 05:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
By filing those two legal procedures so swiftly, it's clear evidence that the NHL is very well prepared. This wasn't improvised.
You realize and half-decent labor lawyer would have been prepared for this eventuality? The script being followed by both sides is pretty standard. I can assure you the NHLPA lawyers knew this was going to happen as soon as the NHLPA asked the players to vote to authorize disclaimer of interest. No one is exhibiting brilliant legal strategy - just basic competence.

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12-14-2012, 05:52 PM
  #78
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So, apparently in the main NHL thread there was a tweet about the PA voting over the next 4 days?

If that's the case, I'm guessing we probably know by Tues where we go from here-as it pertains to how the players vote.

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12-14-2012, 06:13 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHL complaint also cites tweets supportive of Fehr from @Logancouture, @mattcarle25 and @ScottieUpshall.

14m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
Ryan Miller's comments to @mirtle are cited in the NHL complaint.

16m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHL complaint says league has provided more than 200,000 pages of financial information to the NHLPA during bargaining.

19m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris

21m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
Other players named in NHL complaint who aren't on NHLPA negotiating committee: Michael Del Zotto, Mark Eaton and Ryan McDonagh.

24m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHL complaint also names #NYR draft pick Cristoval Nieves and #sens draft pick Shane Prince. Thoughts, @mc79hockey?

38m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
NHL complaint says union's vote on disclaiming interest will take place over the next four days.

40m Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHL's class action complaint names all 31 players who are part of the NHLPA's negotiating committee.
Can someone explain this? Specifically about Miller, Couture, Upshall and Carl incidents.

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12-14-2012, 06:14 PM
  #80
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Private labour negotiation disputes involving sports should have no place in a courtroom. Waste of govt $ imo.

I also don't know if the PA will really go through with this right now since odds are against them. Judged nowadays tend to be very anti-union and pro-business unfortunately...depends where the courtroom fight takes place is I guess but I would lose a lot of optimism now if I were a player and don't see any negotiations happening this upcoming week. If it does got to court then I hope the PA gets a sympathetic judge but dunno if that's realistic.

^ That tweet is basically the NHL saying that the players are actually 100% behind Fehr as they repeatedly say and that the disclaimer is just a court tactic. As soon as they win the case, they'll reform a union should it go that far. Obviously they would be stupid not to reform it or they'd lose a lot of the privileges they've enjoyed thanks to the hard work of men like the guy in my avatar or Carl Brewer.

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12-14-2012, 06:17 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
Can someone explain this? Specifically about Miller, Couture, Upshall and Carl incidents.
It's been discovered that the players named have varying contracting statuses (UFAs, RFAs, unsigned prospects, prospects signed to ELC) and/or reside in NY. The tweets and words printed/said by the others showing support of decertification/disclaimer can be used as evidence to prove that they are acting as a collective unit in order to gain more leverage in negotiations, hence the complaint of bad faith negotiating to the NLRB.

The players shot themselves in the foot.

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12-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
^ That tweet is basically the NHL saying that the players are actually 100% behind Fehr as they repeatedly say and that the disclaimer is just a court tactic. As soon as they win the case, they'll reform a union should it go that far. Obviously they would be stupid not to reform it or they'd lose a lot of the privileges they've enjoyed thanks to the hard work of men like the guy in my avatar or Carl Brewer.
Oh, I get it now. Thanks a bunch.

I hope this tactic flies, would be fun to see Upshall screw his own PA over.

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12-14-2012, 06:32 PM
  #83
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If the PA votes for it, the owners have a choice... make a couple concessions or risk who knows what.
its not just about the owners, what you said applies to union as well..

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
It's been discovered that the players named have varying contracting statuses (UFAs, RFAs, unsigned prospects, prospects signed to ELC) and/or reside in NY. The tweets and words printed/said by the others showing support of decertification/disclaimer can be used as evidence to prove that they are acting as a collective unit in order to gain more leverage in negotiations, hence the complaint of bad faith negotiating to the NLRB.

The players shot themselves in the foot.
What has been discovered and by who? All the players fall into one category or another--- UFA, RFA, ELC, prospect. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Or they live in NY. The league is a national entity, so selecting players who live in NY is relevant how exactly?


Last edited by LadyStanley: 12-14-2012 at 08:12 PM. Reason: qdp
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12-14-2012, 06:41 PM
  #85
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are you serious?

if this wasn't drafted and ready to go months ago, Bettman would be the worst commissioner in pro sports.

wait, he's already the worst. the worstestest?
What else has Bettman had to do the last several months anyway? Not like they didn't have time. The lawfirm of Bettman/Daly/Batterman wasn't exactly going to be blindsided by this, especially after Bettman himself referred to decertification and disclaimer of interest at his angry press conference.

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12-14-2012, 06:45 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Right, he should have said tax dollars.



What has been discovered and by who? All the players fall into one category or another--- UFA, RFA, ELC, prospect. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Or they live in NY. The league is a national entity, so selecting players who live in NY is relevant how exactly?
https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...34019841740800
The NHL complaint also names #NYR draft pick Cristoval Nieves and #sens draft pick Shane Prince. Thoughts, @mc79hockey?

@reporterchris They want an order that binds players who haven't yet signed NHL contracts is my suspicion but have been drafted.

@mc79hockey @reporterchris The filing points out that both Nieves and Prince live in New York. Would that matter?

@SeanFitz_Gerald It could matter in establishing jurisdiction over them. More practically, Ontario has different rules... @reporterchris

@SeanFitz_Gerald ...when it comes to serving people who live out of province, IIRC. New York may be similar. @reporterchris

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12-14-2012, 06:49 PM
  #87
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Im guessing this is so that players cant file anti trust lawsuits as there contracts will no longer be in existence?

Quote:
https://twitter.com/mirtle

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Part of NHL's filing includes section requesting declaration that "all existing contracts between NHL players and teams would be void."

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:56 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...34019841740800
The NHL complaint also names #NYR draft pick Cristoval Nieves and #sens draft pick Shane Prince. Thoughts, @mc79hockey?

@reporterchris They want an order that binds players who haven't yet signed NHL contracts is my suspicion but have been drafted.

@mc79hockey @reporterchris The filing points out that both Nieves and Prince live in New York. Would that matter?

@SeanFitz_Gerald It could matter in establishing jurisdiction over them. More practically, Ontario has different rules... @reporterchris

@SeanFitz_Gerald ...when it comes to serving people who live out of province, IIRC. New York may be similar. @reporterchris

You can't force people into a union. This is bizarre.

The NHL seems to be banking on the labor laws and the last interpretation in the NFL case, but even that ruling left the antitrust matter alone, which individual players could still pursue. I wonder if these players are planning on filing the antitrust suits perhaps?


Does this make any sense to you, Ziggy?

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12-14-2012, 06:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Im guessing this is so that players cant file anti trust lawsuits as there contracts will no longer be in existence?

NBA did the same thing. Their CBA was settled before any court ruled on the matter.

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12-14-2012, 06:57 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Im guessing this is so that players cant file anti trust lawsuits as there contracts will no longer be in existence?
Before I jump in with "ooos and ahhhs" lol-I'm wondering is this standard practice in these situations, declaring all null and void?

EDIT: Fugu partially answered my question.

My question now-realistically will there be any real negotiation going forward? Sounds like the NHL is preparing to go to court with the PA, as a result I don't think a PA vote to disclaim would have any affect as far as sudden concessions-I'm reading this simply that the NHL is basically "go ahead and vote, and if you vote yes, we're going to court" and the season will essentially be toast.

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12-14-2012, 07:02 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Im guessing this is so that players cant file anti trust lawsuits as there contracts will no longer be in existence?
Can You Imagine!

You wanna see interest in hockey explode upon return after a yr or 2 off? Have a UFA class of 750-1000 players!

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
NBA did the same thing. Their CBA was settled before any court ruled on the matter.
Maybe the courts may actually get a crack at this this time around...

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Old
12-14-2012, 07:03 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Before I jump in with "ooos and ahhhs" lol-I'm wondering is this standard practice in these situations, declaring all null and void?

EDIT: Fugu partially answered my question.

My question now-realistically will there be any real negotiation going forward? Sounds like the NHL is preparing to go to court with the PA, as a result I don't think a PA vote to disclaim would have any affect as far as sudden concessions-I'm reading this simply that the NHL is basically "go ahead and vote, and if you vote yes, we're going to court" and the season will essentially be toast.
This is the absolute exact same script as the NBA lockout last season. Considering that Bettman was mentored by Stern and the NBA and NHL are both represented by Proskauer Rose, where Bettman was a partner, not exactly a big surprise here.

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12-14-2012, 07:09 PM
  #93
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So what I can gather from this, the league is arguing two things.

1. The PA is collectively plotting to disclaim for the sole purpose of gaining leverage in negotiations - this would seem to protect the league in regards to the legality of the lockout.

2. The league is arguing that contracts signed under a CBA are not enforceable outside of the union that it was negotiated under

Now, I don't see how either prevents the players from filing antitrust claims, however, if the league makes a strong enough case regarding the legality of the contracts, wouldn't that negate the players antitrust claims?

Did the NBA argue the legality of the contracts as well? Whether they did or not doesn't make a difference since it never got that far but should be interesting to see how it unfolds because I've been asking this question about the legality of contracts if the PA were to dissolve but there doesn't seem to be any definitive answers out there.

Now we're left to see if one or both sides are bluffing or willing to fight until the death, lol.

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12-14-2012, 07:09 PM
  #94
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A question i have tho...

Could the PA have any sort case against the NHL in a court if it doesn't let its membership vote on a proposal?

Wouldn't it truly help their case tremendously if they had a NO vote in there?

Otherwise to me, in my non-existent legal knowledge base, the owners have an easy in on the bad faith angle, no?

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12-14-2012, 07:10 PM
  #95
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This has gone beyond what I've earlier termed the fiasco stage. There is absolutely no sense in Bettman and the NHL trying to break their employees' union again. Is this the tactic every year the CBA expires? What a joke. I almost wish the association has every success in this just to see Bettman's weasal squirm.

Not sure if it was brought up earlier but for those who keep insisting that the NHL's latest offer (whatever that is) should go to a union vote should understand that a majority vote by the union membership to have their negotiating committee proceed with a disclaimer of interest is essentially a turn-down of the NHL's offer.

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12-14-2012, 07:12 PM
  #96
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My head tell me this is a sign that the NHLPA will be pushed to agreeing a deal.

My gut tells me this is the last spark that will blow the season up. There is no way any of this was unexpected...I cant see how Fehr, who has drug this out this long, won't have a way to counter this...or at the very least be willing to go to court.

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12-14-2012, 07:15 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
My head tell me this is a sign that the NHLPA will be pushed to agreeing a deal.

My gut tells me this is the last spark that will blow the season up. There is no way any of this was unexpected...I cant see how Fehr, who has drug this out this long, won't have a way to counter this...or at the very least be willing to go to court.
Just as the NHL was prepared to go to the courts once it got a sense of where the PA was going in a legal sense, trust me that the NHLPA is just as prepared to counter. Not the owners, not the players, only the lawyers hired by both parties are going to make money for the next while if this progresses.

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12-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Im guessing this is so that players cant file anti trust lawsuits as there contracts will no longer be in existence?
Last August 2,2011. Proskauer Rose. NBA and NHL primary law firm. Stern and Bettman came from there

Quote:
The NBA filed two claims today against the National Basketball Players Association: an unfair labor practice charge before the National Labor Relations Board, and a lawsuit in federal district court in New York.

The unfair labor practice charge asserts that the Players Association has failed to bargain in good faith by virtue of its unlawful threats to commence a sham "decertification" and an antitrust lawsuit challenging the NBA's lockout.

The federal lawsuit seeks to establish, among other things, that the NBA's lockout does not violate federal antitrust laws and that if the Players Association's "decertification" were found to be lawful, all existing player contracts would become void and unenforceable.

"These claims were filed in an effort to eliminate the use of impermissible pressure tactics by the union which are impeding the parties' ability to negotiate a new collective bargaining agreement," said NBA Deputy Commissioner and Chief Operating Officer Adam Silver. "For the parties to reach agreement on a new CBA, the union must commit to the collective bargaining process fully and in good faith."
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/08/02/n...uit/index.html

Same exact claims filed by the NHL today.

The players disclaimed interest and filed lawsuits.

Quote:
The players' strategy in filing a disclaimer of interest involves giving up rights under labor law to gain rights under antitrust law. The objective is to acquire leverage against owners by threatening an antitrust suit.

A disclaimer of interest happens immediately, while it would take 45 to 60 days if the NHLPA elected to decertify.

"It will add another level of complexity if the NHLPA does go through with disclaimer and bring an antitrust suit," Feldman said. "In all likelihood, the players will not file in New York, which means we will not only be battling between antitrust law and labor law ... we will be battling over where the case should be heard."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ckout/1770529/

The players will probably file in California.

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12-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Just as the NHL was prepared to go to the courts once it got a sense of where the PA was going in a legal sense, trust me that the NHLPA is just as prepared to counter. Not the owners, not the players, only the lawyers hired by both parties are going to make money for the next while if this progresses.
I guess though - is this what the majority of players even want - to fight this fight that is?

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12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
  #100
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I guess it was only a matter of time before the players got fed up with lockout after lockout, one finally blows up in bettmans face.

What an absolute disaster this has been right from the get go.

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