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Old
12-09-2012, 05:23 PM
  #251
MarkGio
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There were soooo many attempts from the league to negotiate with the PA that they finally put an offer together a month before the CBA expired.

They could've released that offer in January...

I think the NHL was content waiting until the summer to sit down with negotiations because they figured they can blame the PA.

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12-09-2012, 05:53 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
There were soooo many attempts from the league to negotiate with the PA that they finally put an offer together a month before the CBA expired.

They could've released that offer in January...

I think the NHL was content waiting until the summer to sit down with negotiations because they figured they can blame the PA.
The PA still waited months to responded it really didn't matter the PA made it clear they wanted to wait until after the season was over to talk and even then took their time.

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12-09-2012, 07:08 PM
  #253
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It doesn't matter. I get tired of determining who's write and who's wrong. It doesn't bring hockey any closer to the ice to bicker about it and I haven't changed my position since my first debate.

And regardless who's MORE to blame, both parties will ultimately lose.

The league is too poor to just accept an offer and wait until the next CBA to gouge a little more?

... Well imagine how poor they'll be when the union decertifies. Everybody knows the union is no longer helping the players because human rights and employment standards are not the same concern as they use to be. There's modern laws now.

The players are too poor to accept a pay cut?

....Well, they don't hold any negotiating leverage and therefore their simply delaying the envitable.

Neither want to work together?

...Well, imagine how much money they'll both lose when a whole year is lost during a period where people are finding any reason to pinch their pennies.

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12-09-2012, 07:18 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
It doesn't matter. I get tired of determining who's write and who's wrong. It doesn't bring hockey any closer to the ice to bicker about it and I haven't changed my position since my first debate.

And regardless who's MORE to blame, both parties will ultimately lose.

The league is too poor to just accept an offer and wait until the next CBA to gouge a little more?

... Well imagine how poor they'll be when the union decertifies. Everybody knows the union is no longer helping the players because human rights and employment standards are not the same concern as they use to be. There's modern laws now.

The players are too poor to accept a pay cut?

....Well, they don't hold any negotiating leverage and therefore their simply delaying the envitable.

Neither want to work together?

...Well, imagine how much money they'll both lose when a whole year is lost during a period where people are finding any reason to pinch their pennies.
There really isn't right and wrong as both sides have done shady things and at this points it seems like an ego battle as no one wants to 'lose".

If I had my way we would adopt the same revenue sharing as the nfl and we would have 50-50 split and Fehr would be removed as he has found a way to anger all of the owners. I would keep Bettman because of his job in growing the sport but I would reduce his power in cba negotiations.

The PA will never decertify as it makes all the players ufa's and the last time the MLB(or NBA can't remember) tried it but was found to be just a negotiating tactic.

Eventually these lockout/strikes do more damage for the nhl then good and one has to wonder at one put do they turn away fans?

I hope you haven't taken anything I have said personally as I do respect your opinion and you are of course allowed/encouraged to share it this is just a very murky topic to discuss because there is no wrong or right.

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12-09-2012, 07:49 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
There really isn't right and wrong as both sides have done shady things and at this points it seems like an ego battle as no one wants to 'lose".

If I had my way we would adopt the same revenue sharing as the nfl and we would have 50-50 split and Fehr would be removed as he has found a way to anger all of the owners. I would keep Bettman because of his job in growing the sport but I would reduce his power in cba negotiations.

The PA will never decertify as it makes all the players ufa's and the last time the MLB(or NBA can't remember) tried it but was found to be just a negotiating tactic.

Eventually these lockout/strikes do more damage for the nhl then good and one has to wonder at one put do they turn away fans?

I hope you haven't taken anything I have said personally as I do respect your opinion and you are of course allowed/encouraged to share it this is just a very murky topic to discuss because there is no wrong or right.
I disagree, but hope to god they don't. I like the game the way it is, and it's because of the CBA. They will likely decertify, all of them. The next time it will be a 55-45% cut. And then after that, 40-60. There's no other way of stopping them really.

And I disagree about Bettman. He needs to go. Everybody attacks the players about Paul Kelly, but nobody attacks the owners about Bettman? Double standard?

I personally don't mind Fehr, but I've only seen him in action for a few months. So far he's been pretty media friendly and discloses a lot in a poised manner. Bettman on the other hand is smug and full of secrets, but mind you, I've had to watch him for several years. I don't mind Daly however.

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12-09-2012, 08:01 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I disagree, but hope to god they don't. I like the game the way it is, and it's because of the CBA. They will likely decertify, all of them. The next time it will be a 55-45% cut. And then after that, 40-60. There's no other way of stopping them really.

And I disagree about Bettman. He needs to go. Everybody attacks the players about Paul Kelly, but nobody attacks the owners about Bettman? Double standard?

I personally don't mind Fehr, but I've only seen him in action for a few months. So far he's been pretty media friendly and discloses a lot in a poised manner. Bettman on the other hand is smug and full of secrets, but mind you, I've had to watch him for several years. I don't mind Daly however.
I agree Bettman is smug bit I don't care so much how he acts (the players do so removing his cba power would go along way) but he is a very good business man he has helped many of the canadian teams stay afloat and was able to expand the game in the states(with several failures Atlanta and Phoenix as examples) as well as he was the one who was able to get the NBC contract which moved the nhl out of the fringe sport air time they were getting on espn.

I don't respect Fehr for what he did in manger league baseball he made the league into a league of haves and have nots as well as the strike thing. He also has been able to anger all of the owners and will not be able to fix that with them.

I doubt the PA ever decertifies and we won't know what the nhl wants until next negotiation but as it stands asking for 50-50 isn't extreme as the NBA and the NFL both agreed to that just last year.

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12-09-2012, 08:10 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I hope you haven't taken anything I have said personally as I do respect your opinion and you are of course allowed/encouraged to share it this is just a very murky topic to discuss because there is no wrong or right.
No worries. If anything, I apologize for taking my frustrations out on a fellow Flames fan. I was really excited for this season and I let my excitement cloud my reasoning.

At the end of the day it's not worth getting worked up about. I don't own a dime in the NHL and I can think of more important ways to spend those 10 hours a week than watching TV. It's water under the bridge.

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12-09-2012, 08:13 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
No worries. If anything, I apologize for taking my frustrations out on a fellow Flames fan. I was really excited for this season and I let my excitement cloud my reasoning.

At the end of the day it's not worth getting worked up about. I don't own a dime in the NHL and I can think of more important ways to spend those 10 hours a week than watching TV. It's water under the bridge.
If anything we should go troll the Oilers boards

I understand how you feel I was real excited after getting rid of Sutter but we might not see nhl hockey again until next October.

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12-09-2012, 08:18 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I agree Bettman is smug bit I don't care so much how he acts (the players do so removing his cba power would go along way) but he is a very good business man he has helped many of the canadian teams stay afloat and was able to expand the game in the states(with several failures Atlanta and Phoenix as examples) as well as he was the one who was able to get the NBC contract which moved the nhl out of the fringe sport air time they were getting on espn.

I don't respect Fehr for what he did in manger league baseball he made the league into a league of haves and have nots as well as the strike thing. He also has been able to anger all of the owners and will not be able to fix that with them.

I doubt the PA ever decertifies and we won't know what the nhl wants until next negotiation but as it stands asking for 50-50 isn't extreme as the NBA and the NFL both agreed to that just last year.
I do feel for them both. I work a job where people come to me for solutions and sometimes when you tell them no, they think of only themselves and tend to forget I too answer to someone and have to put that someone's interests in mind first. And hence I'm not liked by all, but unfortunately sometimes there's no friends in business.

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12-14-2012, 04:53 PM
  #260
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So much distrust now the league is seeking legal conformation in the lockout to stop the players from suing if they decertify as the players have voted to hold a vote to see if decertifing is the next step.

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12-14-2012, 05:12 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
So much distrust now the league is seeking legal conformation in the lockout to stop the players from suing if they decertify as the players have voted to hold a vote to see if decertifing is the next step.
How devastating for the PA hardliners would it be if that vote fails? Personally I think they should be voting on something else...

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12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
  #262
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How devastating for the PA hardliners would it be if that vote fails? Personally I think they should be voting on something else...
There is a precedent for the court to rule in the owners favor and see this as just a negotiating tactic, the way I see it if the league wins the court ruling or the players vote no to decertify then the PA will take the last offer the nhl made and move on if not we wouldn't see nhl hockey until October at the earliest.

This is the first time where the players have allowed themselves to be put in a bad spot publicity wise. If they win the court battle decertify and sue the nhl for 3 times what they have lost they will kill the nhl and take the money proving they only cared about the money, and if they lose the court battle and don't take the nhl's offer they will have to go to Europe to play because many don't have the money to just sit out and they will look piety that they won't play in the nhl for the same contracts or better (for most). This is a bad PR move.


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12-14-2012, 06:39 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
There is a precedent for the court to rule in the owners favor and see this as just a negotiating tactic, the way I see it if the league wins the court ruling or the players vote no to decertify then the PA will take the last offer the nhl made and move on if not we wouldn't see nhl hockey until October at the earliest.

This is the first time where the players have allowed themselves to be put in a bad spot publicity wise. If they win the court battle decertify and sue the nhl for 3 times what they have lost they will kill the nhl and take the money proving they only cared about the money, and if they lose the court battle and don't take the nhl's offer they will have to go to Europe to play because many don't have the money to just sit out and they will look piety that they won't play in the nhl for the same contracts or better (for most). This is a bad PR move.
The NHL filed the complaint in the district where they felt a disclaimer was best viewed as a negotiating tactic and where that decision was previously made. But that was the NFL and this is the NHL. The country of Canada is involved this time....

I figured this would happen. I expect the union to make a vote to prove it's not just a negotiating tactic. Moreover, the events that transcribed between the PA and the NHL are different from those in the NFL. Events like files at the alberta labour relations board, comments involving"cattle", etc. Every case is different.

One event is that the NHL just recently refused to negotiate while mediators were involved. That's a different case than the one with the NFL in which the disclaimer was viewed as a negotiation tactic. When there's no negotiation, there's no tactic to negotiate with. Or something like that.

Meanwhile the NHL has to prove that the players want to remain as a union after the disclaimer in order to call this a tactic. Hence a PA vote would prove otherwise.

Anyways, who really knows what will happen.

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12-14-2012, 06:44 PM
  #264
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The NHL filed the complaint in the district where they felt a disclaimer was best viewed as a negotiating tactic and where that decision was previously made. But that was the NFL and this is the NHL. The country of Canada is involved this time....

I figured this would happen. I expect the union to make a vote to prove it's not just a negotiating tactic. Moreover, the events that transcribed between the PA and the NHL are different from those in the NFL.

The NHL just recently refused to negotiate. That's a different case than the one with the NFL in which the disclaimer was viewed as a negotiation tactic. When there's no negotiation, there's no tactic to negotiate with. Or something like that.

Meanwhile the NHL has to prove that the players want to remain as a union in order to call this a tactic. Hence a PA vote would prove otherwise.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has any answers as to what will be the outcome.
There's no evidence that the NHL has refused to negotiate. They've met with mediators twice at the PA's request, they've been improving their offer consistently since the fall, they just recently upped their make whole dollars to which the PA said thanks so much, now what. All this in the past two weeks. Sounds like negotiating to me.

Arguing that the NHL is refusing to negotiate will NEVER fly in court.

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12-14-2012, 06:51 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
There's no evidence that the NHL has refused to negotiate. They've met with mediators twice at the PA's request, they've been improving their offer consistently since the fall, they just recently upped their make whole dollars to which the PA said thanks so much, now what. All this in the past two weeks. Sounds like negotiating to me.

Arguing that the NHL is refusing to negotiate will NEVER fly in court.
Depends how you define negotiate. Getting together twice a week might be negotiating. But if each time they get together and one party says "too bad, I'm not moving from my position", that might be refusing to negotiate. Plus how long does that have to be? Maybe the NHL will even tell a judge that they're not willing to give up any more concessions.

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12-14-2012, 07:00 PM
  #266
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The NHL filed the complaint in the district where they felt a disclaimer was best viewed as a negotiating tactic and where that decision was previously made. But that was the NFL and this is the NHL. The country of Canada is involved this time....

I figured this would happen. I expect the union to make a vote to prove it's not just a negotiating tactic. Moreover, the events that transcribed between the PA and the NHL are different from those in the NFL. Events like files at the alberta labour relations board, comments involving"cattle", etc. Every case is different.

One event is that the NHL just recently refused to negotiate while mediators were involved. That's a different case than the one with the NFL in which the disclaimer was viewed as a negotiation tactic. When there's no negotiation, there's no tactic to negotiate with. Or something like that.

Meanwhile the NHL has to prove that the players want to remain as a union after the disclaimer in order to call this a tactic. Hence a PA vote would prove otherwise.

Anyways, who really knows what will happen.
True however the players publicly said last week they are behind Fehr 100% hard to believe that confidence has shaken that much also the players never voted on the lasted nhl proposal which will significantly hurt their chances of winning because they have not seen if the players are like the nhl's deal or not (Many believe it would have passed the 50% votes needed and we would be playing).

We don't know how this will play out but as I said this is the first time the PA has allowed its self to be put in a potion of bad PR which is either a change in tactics or they are falling apart.

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12-14-2012, 07:12 PM
  #267
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True however the players publicly said last week they are behind Fehr 100% hard to believe that confidence has shaken that much also the players never voted on the lasted nhl proposal which will significantly hurt their chances of winning because they have not seen if the players are like the nhl's deal or not (Many believe it would have passed the 50% votes needed and we would be playing).

We don't know how this will play out but as I said this is the first time the PA has allowed its self to be put in a potion of bad PR which is either a change in tactics or they are falling apart.
I don't know what the voting thing is about. If everytime the owners and players had to vote on each other's proposal, what's the point of having an executive negotiating team?

Even if it would've passed but wasn't put to a vote, maybe that says that Fehr isn't doing is job, hence the union has no faith in their union...

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12-14-2012, 07:19 PM
  #268
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I don't know what the voting thing is about. If everytime the owners and players had to vote on each other's proposal, what's the point of having an executive negotiating team?

Even if it would've passed but wasn't put to a vote, maybe that says that Fehr isn't doing is job, hence the union has no faith in their union...
The players are voting to decetify the union, inorder to justify such an action they will need to show that
a) The players don't think the nhl has given them a valid proposal (we can't know this unless they vote on it)
b) The players feel that the union is unable to get a better proposal

The will find it extremely tough to say that they all don't think it is a good proposal without a vote as proof and if they did vote and it was close to passing then b) would hold them back as it would appear they are close to a deal. It will be awfully hard to find a courtroom that believes this isn't a tactic to sue the nhl with out a vote to proof that the players truly think they have it bad.

If it would have passed the players will be told to simply fire Fehr and the head of the PA and accept the deal.

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12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
  #269
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A deal is close, but both parties are fighting for that last bit of concession. I think this gets settled soon. Why the NHL is willing to die on the hill for a stupid thing like length of contract is beyond me.

Is an 7 year deal really that much different than a 5 year deal? Not many players have a 7 year deal anyways.

And as far as backloaded contracts goes, just inform the owners how it hurts the game and why they shouldn't do it. Then we'll see how much the owners care about the game.

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12-14-2012, 07:25 PM
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A deal is close, but both parties are fighting for that last bit of concession. I think this gets settled soon. Why the NHL is willing to die on the hill for a stupid thing like length of contract is beyond me.

Is an 7 year deal really that much different than a 5 year deal? Not many players have a 7 year deal anyways.

And as far as backloaded contracts goes, just inform the owners how it hurts the game and why they shouldn't do it. Then we'll see how much the owners care about the game.
Please don't use this argument as it is bs. The players have shown to care about the game as much as the owners. Why the owners want a 5 deal I have no idea just make it 7 and it would be all fine.

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12-14-2012, 07:26 PM
  #271
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The players are voting to decetify the union, inorder to justify such an action they will need to show that
a) The players don't think the nhl has given them a valid proposal (we can't know this unless they vote on it)
b) The players feel that the union is unable to get a better proposal

The will find it extremely tough to say that they all don't think it is a good proposal without a vote as proof and if they did vote and it was close to passing then b) would hold them back as it would appear they are close to a deal. It will be awfully hard to find a courtroom that believes this isn't a tactic to sue the nhl with out a vote to proof that the players truly think they have it bad.

If it would have passed the players will be told to simply fire Fehr and the head of the PA and accept the deal.
Or maybe the NHLPA is trying a last attempt with the disclaimer route before they actually enter no-man's land with the decertification. This one is saying the union doesn't want it's membership, hence doesn't HAVE to vote. But they are anyways to get the point across.

If the player's vote to remove the union, then it's game over. A judge would be hard pressed to say that democracy doesn't work.

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12-14-2012, 07:31 PM
  #272
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Please don't use this argument as it is bs. The players have shown to care about the game as much as the owners. Why the owners want a 5 deal I have no idea just make it 7 and it would be all fine.
And I fundamentally disagree with this. The owners have business elsewhere. What does a hockey player have other than hockey? What has a hockey player done to actually make their living, they lived and breathed hockey since they were kids. That's the difference when it comes to the game.

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12-14-2012, 07:32 PM
  #273
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Or maybe the NHLPA is trying a last attempt with the disclaimer route before they actually enter no-man's land with the decertification. This one is saying the union doesn't want it's membership, hence doesn't HAVE to vote. But they are anyways to get the point across.

If the player's vote to remove the union, then it's game over. A judge would be hard pressed to say that democracy doesn't work.
It has been done before and again if the union truly had failed then why not have a vote and prove it and it would be over it makes it looks like a tactic.

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12-14-2012, 07:33 PM
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And I fundamentally disagree with this. The owners have business elsewhere. What does a hockey player have other than hockey? What has a hockey player done to actually make their living, they lived and breathed hockey since they were kids. That's the difference when it comes to the game.
It doesn't matter what else they do the players could just accept the current deal and show they do care more but they don't both parties treat it like a business.

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12-14-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
The players are voting to decetify the union, inorder to justify such an action they will need to show that
a) The players don't think the nhl has given them a valid proposal (we can't know this unless they vote on it)
b) The players feel that the union is unable to get a better propo
sal

The will find it extremely tough to say that they all don't think it is a good proposal without a vote as proof and if they did vote and it was close to passing then b) would hold them back as it would appear they are close to a deal. It will be awfully hard to find a courtroom that believes this isn't a tactic to sue the nhl with out a vote to proof that the players truly think they have it bad.

If it would have passed the players will be told to simply fire Fehr and the head of the PA and accept the deal.
I don't think this Needs to happen in a court at all. We've seen one other case before and it didn't involve players voting on a proposal, it involved a judge telling the players that the courts aren't a place to negotiate.

I think this is what --> you <-- want to see happen

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