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Old
12-14-2012, 09:41 PM
  #326
Habbadasher
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well if the league gets its way, there's no decertification so the lockout will continue as is except the NHLPA will be completely *****ed and we will have to wait for whatever new CBA is imposed upon them for players to be resigned. A lot of recently signed players will just get the contracts they had back - except with less years and for less money.

If the contracts are voided because of decertification than without a CBA everything the players want will have to be individually agreed upon. These guys better hope their agents are good at their jobs.
I agree with you, it seems that the NHL is cutting the PA off at the pass. Even though I hate Bettman's personality, seems his team has this all worked out.

As far as attacking the product (as per DAChampion et al), it is all business. The players bit the hand that fed them. Never a good idea. The boss always has the upper hand.

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12-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #327
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If the NHLPA decertifies what happens to players without contracts?

More specifically, what happens to PK?

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:46 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Nashy View Post
If the NHLPA decertifies what happens to players without contracts?

More specifically, what happens to PK?
He's pretty happy if so, it means he can sign with anybody and/or use this fact to demand more money from Molson.

On the hand Molson can also tell him to go .... himself and go after guys like Myers, Hamilton & Gudbranson.

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12-14-2012, 09:50 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
He's pretty happy if so, it means he can sign with anybody and/or use this fact to demand more money from Molson.

On the hand Molson can also tell to go .... himself and go after guys like Myers, Hamilton & Gudbranson.
Hmmm....don't really like that scenario. Habs never seem to come out on top of those bidding wars, unless they're for has-beens.

Losing Subban would be a huge blow for the organization.


Last edited by Nashy: 12-14-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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Old
12-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #330
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He's pretty happy if so, it means he can sign with anybody and/or use this fact to demand more money from Molson.

On the hand Molson can also tell him to go .... himself and go after guys like Myers, Hamilton & Gudbranson.
I would imagine that Timmons would be ringing Barkov and Drouins doorbell post haste.

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12-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #331
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Hmmm....don't really like that scenario. Habs never seem to come out on top of those bidding wars, unless they're for has-beens.
That's a good point. Overall taxing oblige.

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12-14-2012, 09:57 PM
  #332
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That's a good point. Overall taxing oblige.
Yes but without revenue sharing Molson keeps what he kills, he would probably see the benefit in icing a cup contender and paying extra to remove the tax problem.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:08 PM
  #333
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So it would appear the NHLPA is united and the the union brothers refuse any pay cut ( unions fight this to the the death, theyd rather lose jobs than take a pay cut, see the Twinkie folks ) even though for except maybe a few in the KHL they have already lost much more than if they took a small pay cut ( Roenick and Recchi said as much ). Of course we have the NHL who finally got that national US television deal they have been salivating over for years ( and the reason Im guessing we have teams everywhere in the States ), revenue up 50 % since the last strike ( mostly thanks to Canada due to loonie and some price gauging clubs ), and they wont budge from getting to that 50 % asap, even though they got everything they wanted to fix the league the last go round.
Hmmm. Thirty owners and 690 players cant divide a $3.3 billion dollar pie by mutual agreement so they are prepared to either completely destroy the other side or be completely destroyed. Yeah, real good risk-reward analysis. Glad we didnt have idiots like this with their fingers on the Nuke buttons during the Cold war.
I despise both sides at this point but hope the Owners win the legal battle if only because if the Players succeed then the NHL as we know it is done, and so the Habs history will almost just be part of some dead league. As a Habs fan of today, history is all I got. Figure it out you Clowns.

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12-14-2012, 10:20 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
The NHL did not sue those individual players but the NHLPA backed up by negative public comments made by those players.

A lot of people have been sued for way less.
true, but they're citing them (not all) individually.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:33 PM
  #335
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I wonder if this could be the end of Russian players in the NHL. There will be a few exceptions (Someone like Datsyuk is almost certainly retiring a Wing, newly drafted guys depending on the new CBA imposed), but if guys like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk get their contracts voided and a new CBA is imposed which means they won't make significantly more than in the KHL, it's likely they are staying in Russia. It all be certainly would mean the end of Markov in Montreal, I doubt the new management will want him back especially with all the names that will be on the market.

Bergevin better think about hiring a capologist type assistant...

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:55 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post

There is no loss from the owners. If Jeremy Jacobs pays out 10 million dollars less in salaries and pays out 4 million dollars more in revenue sharing then he is losing nothing. He is gaining 6 million/year. That's right -- he's not losing anything whatsoever.
This is an interesting argument. Using last seasons $70.2 million cap as a reference number, 12% (salary rollback) is 8.4 million. Revenue sharing is paid by only 10 teams, therefore, $40 million/10 = $ 4 million. However, it is quite possible the top teams would pay $8 million, and therefore, no savings for them.

You also mentioned the median profit was $3 million. So 3 million times 30 teams equals 90 million, divided by 3.3 Billion in revenue equals 2.7 percent profits. Coke has an 18.4 percent net profit (in 2011, in 2010 it was 33.6 %!) in comparison. 2.7 percent is crap, and a sign of an unhealthy business. And increase in the value of the business is irrelevant.

You also mentioned you would like to see 36 teams, so would I, but it will not happen with unhealthy teams. Profitable teams, means more teams, means more jobs. It is as simple as that.

Teams' number one expense is player salaries, it is the most obvious place to cut.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:43 PM
  #337
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I really hope we don't lose Alex Galchenyuk and PK Subban to this stupidity.

I realize that we could always get new assets on the free agent market, but I'd like to see some players develop as Habs.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:46 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
This is an interesting argument. Using last seasons $70.2 million cap as a reference number, 12% (salary rollback) is 8.4 million. Revenue sharing is paid by only 10 teams, therefore, $40 million/10 = $ 4 million. However, it is quite possible the top teams would pay $8 million, and therefore, no savings for them.

You also mentioned the median profit was $3 million. So 3 million times 30 teams equals 90 million, divided by 3.3 Billion in revenue equals 2.7 percent profits. Coke has an 18.4 percent net profit (in 2011, in 2010 it was 33.6 %!) in comparison. 2.7 percent is crap, and a sign of an unhealthy business. And increase in the value of the business is irrelevant.

You also mentioned you would like to see 36 teams, so would I, but it will not happen with unhealthy teams. Profitable teams, means more teams, means more jobs. It is as simple as that.

Teams' number one expense is player salaries, it is the most obvious place to cut.
With better revenue sharing and lower player salaries the definition of an "healthy team" can be adjusted downwards.

Keep in mind that expansion into weaker markets would further reduce the salary cap, as the cap is determined by the revenue of the average team.

Also, my impression of the TV market is that the NHL is almost good enough to warrant a generous TV deal. A healthy round of expansion would push them over the top.

3% is better than a lot of industries. It is true that Coke rings in at 18% but they their market capitalization is 164 billion, compared to about 6 billion for the NHL. Coke brings in more money, but it takes more money to own Coke.

Increase in value of the business is very relevant. That's the way to make money. Gillete bought the Habs+Bell Center for 150 million, and he sold them for 550 million.

*********

Jeremy Jacobs would come out ahead from this deal, though some teams like Toronto might come out worse.

However, if he weren't such an ideologue he might realize he would come out even further ahead by letting the Bruins compete while their core is a contending core. Another Stanley Cup would do far more for his bottom line than bleeding a few more million from the players.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-14-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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12-14-2012, 11:51 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411653


Care to explain how the players are being crushed? all i see is that NHL running to courts trying to legally prevent what would possibly ruin the NHL.
if NHL does suceed, then they would just go back to pre-court "era" (aka yesterday) and back at trying to get deal done. don't really see how they are being crushed, unless i might of missed something, which is fairly possible

Either that, or the Players are just trying to get a deal done without Fher, like the NBA did? didn't really understand that part.


Anyways, this is getting real juicy
no matter my love for the game, seeing such a non essential industry implode itself upon greed is music to my ears. As much as i side with the players, i really don't care much for the players in the greater scheme, comparatively speaking to more essential industries. (ps. i work at the bell center part time while in school, so im a casualty of this mess, so to speak)
Glad you are enjoying this. As for me, I have lost the pleasure of watching the Habs, and I am observing gross stupidity and small minds masked by cunning every single day from both sides. I don't find that enjoyable.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:53 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I wonder if this could be the end of Russian players in the NHL. There will be a few exceptions (Someone like Datsyuk is almost certainly retiring a Wing, newly drafted guys depending on the new CBA imposed), but if guys like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk get their contracts voided and a new CBA is imposed which means they won't make significantly more than in the KHL, it's likely they are staying in Russia. It all be certainly would mean the end of Markov in Montreal, I doubt the new management will want him back especially with all the names that will be on the market.

Bergevin better think about hiring a capologist type assistant...
Would be good for hockey if the KHL grew into a transcontinental league and thus a legitimate competitor to the NHL.

European Union labor rules could be a problem though.

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12-14-2012, 11:56 PM
  #341
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What a ridiculous mess. Wake me up when this carnival is over, I'm going back into hibernation.

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12-14-2012, 11:56 PM
  #342
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I think everybody knows that contracts evaporate if the union decertifies ...
Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'd love to read some more detailed stuff about the subject) but I don't believe this is the case. In fact, I'd guess signed contracts would be even more protected because any breaches of contract would be decided by law, not by collective bargaining. From what I understand, the players who could potentially make a case for unrestricted free agency in a unionless NHL are RFA's and prospects not yet signed to ELC's.

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12-15-2012, 12:03 AM
  #343
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If there was anything that got me to lose faith in the legal system, it was law school.

Oh man, this could get nasty. Part of NHL's filing includes section requesting declaration that "all existing contracts between NHL players and teams would be void."

Any you thought the league wasn't playing nice before.
Our legal systems may be flawed, but they are the better than any other 'legal' system I can think of. Try upholding your contractual rights in China.

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12-15-2012, 12:12 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
I agree with you, it seems that the NHL is cutting the PA off at the pass. Even though I hate Bettman's personality, seems his team has this all worked out.

As far as attacking the product (as per DAChampion et al), it is all business. The players bit the hand that fed them. Never a good idea. The boss always has the upper hand.
I can't see a court's decision in favor of the NHL that the union has to keep representing players, even if players vote to disband it. Owners keeping a union alive against the wishes of employees? I mean, I know law and common sense don't always go hand in hand, but that seems ridiculous.

IMO this is really meant to show players that the NHL would fight every step along the way, to discourage votes in favor of the DOI. I think the tactic might work.

more: I think the timing of the NHL's motion backs up the idea that it's more of an intimidation tactic than a hope of blocking the DOI legally. Why else do it before players have actually decided on the DOI?


Last edited by Roulin: 12-15-2012 at 12:27 AM.
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12-15-2012, 12:17 AM
  #345
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What a ridiculous mess. Wake me up when this carnival is over, I'm going back into hibernation.
Don't do it LG. We need you!

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12-15-2012, 12:24 AM
  #346
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Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'd love to read some more detailed stuff about the subject) but I don't believe this is the case. In fact, I'd guess signed contracts would be even more protected because any breaches of contract would be decided by law, not by collective bargaining. From what I understand, the players who could potentially make a case for unrestricted free agency in a unionless NHL are RFA's and prospects not yet signed to ELC's.
I am not sure of the legal aspects either. I wonder in fact if signed contracts between 2 parties can be deemed invalid, even if the CBA they were agreed under did not exist.

Our attorney friends might like to help us here. My instinct and experience is that judges ask for the most solid evidence they can find in any case brought before them, such as signed contracts, and they would still consider the contract as evidence in the case. Even if the contract had a clause saying it was only valid under an agreed CBA. Then again, I could be completely wrong on this. I could be , in fact, just a retard.

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12-15-2012, 01:37 AM
  #347
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When Bettman retires, he'll be able to write a book on how Fehr's unwillingness to negotiate justify the purpose of his book.

FYI, a lawyer just mentioned on TSN that Bettman did a good job "securing the home ice advantage" by taking initiative filing the lawsuit in an employer-friendly state in New York rather than the employee-friendly California.

The NHLPA's generic response to the lawsuit seems to suggest that Fehr did not see this coming at this point.

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12-15-2012, 02:26 AM
  #348
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Sure, the chance to make the NHL is smaller than many other jobs. However, perspective is important. Follow me for a second, please.

The NHL is not the ONLY hockey league where players can earn a living. It is the league where they earn the BEST living, but not the league where they earn the ONLY living. Everybody seems to forget that there are a lot more than just 700 jobs in the field of playing hockey. There are a lot of european teams, there are AHL and ECHL, and other PAYING North American leagues. Just like some people will graduate University and work at Harvard where they get paid quite well, does not mean that those people who graduate from the same University but work at a community college are not also successful. The financials are different, but both have achieved a measure of success. Unless people are trying to argue that only money=success. At that point, there are far more people in the world lacking success by that definition than there will ever be who are successful. In that kind of world, Hockey players should feel less than successful since their sports brethren in the NBA, MLB, and NFL make much more money than them. Do you see the problem?

If we are saying that someone who strives to reach the NHL, but simply has a long minor league career where he earns a salary, pays his mortgage, puts his kids through school, etc...while not making millions of dollars is a failure doesn't that diminish the lives of all those players that have managed to make a career out of minor league hockey? Why is playing in the NHL the ONLY success? Just because it pays the most? Are we really saying that only by making millions of dollars can one feel like a success? I really hope not.

Here is a parallel. I work in the public sector in teaching (at a high school). Some people have said that I should go to the private sector because I would make more money and get paid better. I had offers to work at the college level (College is not the same as University in Quebec, it is an intermediate step between High School and University). I could even get a job at McGill University, if I truly wanted to. I have also been offered the opportunity to become a Vice Principal. All of these are great opportunities I could take advantage of if I wanted to. However, I love what I do and do not want to do anything else at the moment. So, does it mean I am less successful because I could get paid more doing something else? I truly hope not. The same thing for a hockey player who doesn't make the NHL but finds success and happiness playing in whatever other league in the world will pay him a salary he feels he can live his life with. I don't see the guy who plays 12 years in the AHL as a loser, I see him as someone who is doing what he loves for a living. It is an accomplishment, not a failure.

Perspective is important, I believe.
I don't disagree with you at all, I suppose you can call NHLers the top paid hockey professionals, just like there are various tiers of engineers, lawyers, teachers and whatever you've got. It would actually be interesting to see a comparison between students that study business and hockey players that make it their careers and see what the percentage of success is in monetary sense. Anyways in no way do I see a career AHLer as a failure, a career AHLer however probably won't make as much money in the long run as any of the other professionals because the career I would imagine is shorter. I'm not sure retirement at the AHL level is 65 like in most other careers, but this does not mean that if an individual made it to the AHL that he is a failure.

What I was arguing is the prospect of getting into the NHL has a greater risk of failure than the prospect of becoming a lawyer, doctor, teacher, engineer. However, those professions have varying degrees of success too so it's not a fair comparison.

I would actually be sort of interested in knowing what is the success rate of business people pocketing greater than 500k/yr as a comparison to how many NHL player jobs there are in this world.

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12-15-2012, 02:41 AM
  #349
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FYI, a lawyer just mentioned on TSN that Bettman did a good job "securing the home ice advantage" by taking initiative filing the lawsuit in an employer-friendly state in New York rather than the employee-friendly California.
Not necessarily:

"It will add another level of complexity if the NHLPA does go through with disclaimer and bring an antitrust suit," Feldman said. "In all likelihood, the players will not file in New York, which means we will not only be battling between antitrust law and labor law ... we will be battling over where the case should be heard."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ckout/1770529/

...and I believe there would be a second (set of) antitrust suit(s) contested in Canada.

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12-15-2012, 03:28 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
I agree with you, it seems that the NHL is cutting the PA off at the pass. Even though I hate Bettman's personality, seems his team has this all worked out.

As far as attacking the product (as per DAChampion et al), it is all business. The players bit the hand that fed them. Never a good idea. The boss always has the upper hand.
worked out as in, we can expect a healthy league where almost every team makes profits... or worked out as in, we'll keep losing money left and right, we'll just manage to lose a little less ?


they kind of feed from each others.


they're not employees.

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