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No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

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12-14-2012, 10:46 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
An interesting article by ESPN's Burnside that is making the rounds where an anonymous Board of governors member presented a compromise deal that players (some) were receptive to:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...cba-right-here

now who knows If the owners could agree to such an offer?

My "new" firm belief is that nothing serious will happen now until both sides are pressed up against a legit deadline or the edge of the cliff.
Its pretty sad isnt it. I think most everyone can see where this will end up but neither side seems to want to go there.

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12-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #702
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theres no way for them to get there until they reach the edge of the cliff. I mean think about it - the PA isn't going to sign the deal on the table now becuase they believe the NHL will give a bit more at the bitter end to get the 48 game season. Otoh, the NHL isn't going to offer anything more now becuase they know Fehr is going to take whatever they offer and then hold out till the bitter end for a bit more. Theres no way to do anything now becuase Fehr is using that cliff edge as his final bargaining chip...

its pretty much the same story as when the NHL came out with their initial offer of 43% hrr for the PA. Everyone says it was a blunder to make such an "insulting" offer but if they had offered 48 or 49% at the outset we'd likely now be working around 53% since splitting the difference is the standard MO in these negotiations. If you bother worrying about how the process looks to us from the outside, you pretty much damn yourself to getting taken to the cleaners by the other side.


Last edited by SensibleGuy: 12-14-2012 at 10:55 AM.
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12-14-2012, 10:59 AM
  #703
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theres no way for them to get there until they reach the edge of the cliff. I mean think about it - the PA isn't going to sign the deal on the table now becuase they believe the NHL will give a bit more at the bitter end to get the 48 game season. Otoh, the NHL isn't going to offer anything more now becuase they know Fehr is going to take whatever they offer and then hold out till the bitter end for a bit more. Theres no way to do anything now becuase Fehr is using that cliff edge as his bargaining chip...
I agree, I think this became apparent when things blew up with the moderate owners.......At that point I think the owners realized this would be a deadline or bust deal so why bother negotiating against themselves anymore just wait it out and go through the motions like the players are until the deadline and see if they can make it happen? Maybe the owners will still try to salvage the new years eve games but I highly doubt it since the time lines are getting too compressed for that now.

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12-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #704
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its pretty much the same story as when the NHL came out with their initial offer of 43% hrr for the PA. Everyone says it was a blunder to make such an "insulting" offer but if they had offered 48 or 49% at the outset we'd likely now be working around 53% since splitting the difference is the standard MO in these negotiations.
quoted for truth... this is exactly the way it would have gone down ...and we'd be less closer to a deal than we are now

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12-14-2012, 12:29 PM
  #705
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I agree, I think this became apparent when things blew up with the moderate owners.......At that point I think the owners realized this would be a deadline or bust deal so why bother negotiating against themselves anymore just wait it out and go through the motions like the players are until the deadline and see if they can make it happen? Maybe the owners will still try to salvage the new years eve games but I highly doubt it since the time lines are getting too compressed for that now.
Totally agree with you PS, i think you nailed exactly what's going on here.

The deal the middleground owners presented i think was something very close to what the NHL had planned to present at the "11th hour" and thus why so much indignation at the NHLPA's turn around and using it as a negotiating point.

You won't see a new offer (i'd honestly be surprised if we even saw THAT offer) again until the 11th hour, and i don't think it will look much different then the last one (at least it won't look much better for the players then the last one).

My feeling is you see zero movement again from the owners side untill were at the "last minute" negotiating table. Now, If the players comeback and move down from their last offer (and they've probably have to move fairly considerably) then you might see some give/take from the owners, but I think your absolutely right when you say they won't negotiate against themselves again.

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12-14-2012, 04:48 PM
  #706
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Oh good, we're heading to the courtrooms now. That'll speed this process up...


of course none of this means much compared to whats going on in Connecticut. Tragic doesn't begin to describe that nightmare.

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12-14-2012, 11:03 PM
  #707
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Wow, the players are getting lawyered pretty good! http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...nhlvsnhlpa.pdf

It's pretty obvious the PA does not have a case here. Even if the courts allow decertification, all contracts are void. I'm sure that would make lots of GM's pretty happy.

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12-14-2012, 11:33 PM
  #708
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Interesting that they named Shane Prince in the suit as well and he's never played an NHL game. Wonder what his role is....just be curious is all.

The NHL is beating the PA to the punch and saying that no anti-trust laws have been or will be violated and the the PA is fully capable of representing the players.

Several things stood out in the suit. First it is very comprehensive and written a little differently then other suits I have read; this one is clearly written by savvy attorneys. Second, it is evident that the NHL was not only paying attention to player quotes/tweets/what have you, but allowing the players to dig their our grave. Also, one of the lawyers used in the PA has also been involved in the NBAPA and NFLPA threats or attempts to decertify.

This is very smart move by the NHL. They have been ready for this all along.

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12-15-2012, 12:18 PM
  #709
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Wow, the players are getting lawyered pretty good! http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...nhlvsnhlpa.pdf

It's pretty obvious the PA does not have a case here. Even if the courts allow decertification, all contracts are void. I'm sure that would make lots of GM's pretty happy.

Section 43 to see how the NHL is using the player's own quotes against them.

Section 53b includes a quote from Andrew Ladd.

Section 101 argues that members of the NHLPA have been playing in Europe.

Section 102 talks about maintaining competative balance

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12-15-2012, 02:08 PM
  #710
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Section 43 to see how the NHL is using the player's own quotes against them.

Section 53b includes a quote from Andrew Ladd.

Section 101 argues that members of the NHLPA have been playing in Europe.

Section 102 talks about maintaining competative balance
Wow...
I don't think many judges would read that and think the players aren't behind the union 100% and that decertification isn't a bargaining tactic...
#pointNHL

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12-15-2012, 06:55 PM
  #711
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Elliotte Friedman explaining the NHL lastest move.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...test-move.html

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12-19-2012, 12:36 AM
  #712
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"We are disclaiming interest in the union! We no longer want them to represent us!"

"Man, I hope we get back to the bargaining table soon."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/hainsey...0300--nhl.html

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12-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #713
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Well so much for the January 1st startup date.

I think we can finally throwout any possibility of optimism for a season this year.

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12-20-2012, 03:13 PM
  #714
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Games now cancelled through January 14.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412031

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12-20-2012, 03:25 PM
  #715
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Well so much for the January 1st startup date.

I think we can finally throwout any possibility of optimism for a season this year.
I had very little hope of a January 1 starting date...it made no sense. The PA and NHL have dragged this thing out this long, they are clearly going wait until the last possible moment here, IMO. That means an argument by Jan 10-14 with a January ~20-24 starting date. Those are the season deadlines, that's when we'll see any kind of progress or not.

I still cannot believe we miss the season this year. It doesn't make sense. This isn't like last lockout, it's not a philosophical debate. They have been talking all along, unlike last time when they did not talk at all pretty much until the drop dead date...it just shouldn't be happening like this

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12-20-2012, 03:41 PM
  #716
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List of Jets games cancelled.


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12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #717
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I had very little hope of a January 1 starting date...it made no sense. The PA and NHL have dragged this thing out this long, they are clearly going wait until the last possible moment here, IMO. That means an argument by Jan 10-14 with a January ~20-24 starting date. Those are the season deadlines, that's when we'll see any kind of progress or not.

I still cannot believe we miss the season this year. It doesn't make sense. This isn't like last lockout, it's not a philosophical debate. They have been talking all along, unlike last time when they did not talk at all pretty much until the drop dead date...it just shouldn't be happening like this
I understand where the owners are coming from.......they do not believe the current system is sustainable financially and want a better CBA and are willing to lock out the players and damage the game to get what they want/need.

For the players In some ways I think this is still about the last CBA negotiation. Itís the only way I can make sense of it.....players got embarrassed (I guess???) and armed themselves (Fehr) for a ďdo overĒ.

I "THINK" (but who knows) their primary drivers are pride, emotion, and PRECIEVED fairness? In their collective hearts I think they truly believe they got bent over last time (even though they won out in the end) and enough is enough.

I don't think itís about the money or this would have been done by now.

I think they we a very real chance of not getting to a deal which is mind numbing.

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12-20-2012, 03:50 PM
  #718
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I understand where the owners are coming from.......they do not believe the current system is sustainable financially and want a better CBA and are willing to lock out the players and damage the game to get what they want/need.

For the players In some ways I think this is still about the last CBA negotiation. It’s the only way I can make sense of it.....players got embarrassed (I guess???) and armed themselves (Fehr) for a “do over”.

I "THINK" (but who knows) their primary drivers are pride, emotion, and PRECIEVED fairness? In their collective hearts I think they truly believe they got bent over last time (even though they won out in the end) and enough is enough.

I don't think it’s about the money or this would have been done by now.

I think they we a very real chance of not getting to a deal which is mind numbing.
Strange to me is that a lot of these guys weren't even around during the last lockout. Has Fehr somehow convinced them to fight to the death in order to honor their 'forefathers'?

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12-20-2012, 04:20 PM
  #719
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Strange to me is that a lot of these guys weren't even around during the last lockout. Has Fehr somehow convinced them to fight to the death in order to honor their 'forefathers'?
The entire thing is confusing for me. I would have thought greed would have won out at some point but pride appears to trump that. My underlying belief is that the incremental gain for the players blowing off 34 (ish) games and taking it to the courthouse steps will not be substantial and their lost salaries will never been regained over the length of the next CBA or their careers. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

This doesn't even take into account the potential damage to the HRR (short term at least). It also doesnít take into account if they ride this off the cliff

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12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #720
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Strange to me is that a lot of these guys weren't even around during the last lockout. Has Fehr somehow convinced them to fight to the death in order to honor their 'forefathers'?
...and thier 'forefathers' all said that the stand they made way back when "wasn't worth it"

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12-20-2012, 05:46 PM
  #721
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...and thier 'forefathers' all said that the stand they made way back when "wasn't worth it"
Of course it wasn't worth it. The players lost.

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12-22-2012, 09:48 PM
  #722
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I have a compromise that could work if both sides weren't so stubborn:

Make a 12 year deal. In years 1 and 2, the NHL goes outside the cap to 'make whole' the current contracts. Years 3-10 you return to playing within the cap and it's restraints.

NHL gets CBA term and proper cap with link to HRR and no escrow cap. Players get monies owed to them.

Go to 6-8 year contracts from 5-7.

I think that could be enough give for both sides to concede without looking like they are bending over. At the end of the day, I think that is what that has become. Both sides are too proud to appear to be weak and giving in.

I still think we get a deal at the last possible moment. That has been Fehr's end game all along.

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12-22-2012, 11:11 PM
  #723
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I have a compromise that could work if both sides weren't so stubborn:

Make a 12 year deal. In years 1 and 2, the NHL goes outside the cap to 'make whole' the current contracts. Years 3-10 you return to playing within the cap and it's restraints.

NHL gets CBA term and proper cap with link to HRR and no escrow cap. Players get monies owed to them.

Go to 6-8 year contracts from 5-7.

I think that could be enough give for both sides to concede without looking like they are bending over. At the end of the day, I think that is what that has become. Both sides are too proud to appear to be weak and giving in.

I still think we get a deal at the last possible moment. That has been Fehr's end game all along.
Personally, i think Fehr wants to blow it up and start from scratch to put in MLB system where there isn't a cap to restrict player salaries, and revenue sharing and luxury taxes enable salaries to reach insane levels.

If players lose a year, which it looks like they might, how would the very high end player make that money back? By being paid in a system where Sydney Crosby or Steven Stamkos can be paid $15 or $20 or $25 mill/yr for many, many years.

I honestly do not like where this looks to be headed.

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12-22-2012, 11:19 PM
  #724
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And if i was the NHLPA, i would really encourage guys like PK Subban to NOT be hockey analysts on Sportsnet (or any other cable sports networks) until the work stoppage is over.

I'm sure Fehr loves when PK says the players are solid, behind one another and Donald Fehr 100%, and they show it with the vote to allow the exec board to go ahead with a disclaimer of interest, if they choose to.

I'm sure the NHL will point that out - that their disclaimer of interest is a sham - using player comments such as PK. NHL's gag order on owners makes too much sense. Otherwise, you'd have the Darryl Katz's going around telling players they will crush them and kill the union... oh wait....

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12-23-2012, 01:47 PM
  #725
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Personally, i think Fehr wants to blow it up and start from scratch to put in MLB system where there isn't a cap to restrict player salaries, and revenue sharing and luxury taxes enable salaries to reach insane levels.

If players lose a year, which it looks like they might, how would the very high end player make that money back? By being paid in a system where Sydney Crosby or Steven Stamkos can be paid $15 or $20 or $25 mill/yr for many, many years.

I honestly do not like where this looks to be headed.
IF the PA thinks that that is going to happen, forget it. The owners will just make money doing other things and the players will lose their NHL careers.

If I'm the NHL and the season gets canceled, I'm making it worth my while and eliminating guaranteed contracts. Play for your money you spoiled brats. Earn it every season or lose it.

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