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12-14-2012, 08:10 PM
  #251
4evaBlue
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Indeed, that's my point. Gardiner and Liles aren't really great choices to pair with Phaneuf, they all played on different pairings last year, and I feel like that will continue in the future. Last year our pairings were basically:

Gunnarsson - Phaneuf
Gardiner - revolving door (mostly Schenn and Franson)
Liles - revolving door (mostly Franson, Komi and Schenn)

If Rielly isn't immediately ready to play on the top pairing when he first comes up (which I think is a safe bet), then he pretty much has to play on the bottom pairing. Since you don't really want any of Gardiner, Liles or Rielly playing together (all left handed shots who like to handle the puck, with similar strengths/weaknesses), that pretty much means one of them should be moved. When Rielly comes up for good, I think the Leafs will look to move Liles, assuming no other injuries/trades between now and then.
So if you don't think it's beneficial to pair up either Gardiner, or Liles with Phaneuf, what makes you think a Reilly - Phaneuf pairing would work out well? As you yourself said, Reilly plays a very similar style as Liles/Gardiner.

On a side note, Liles and Gardiner were paired together at the start of the season fairly often IIRC, and that was the stretch when Liles was the most productive.

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12-14-2012, 08:13 PM
  #252
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Well wingers play the boards soooooo.



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12-14-2012, 08:32 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Agreed. When watching him play, my main problem with his defensive game is that he's very passive. As you said, he tends to give opposing forwards a lot of time and space, which is a dangerous way to defend, especially at the NHL level. I'm not overly worried about this long term, I think it's something he can fix, but I'm surprised by how many people seem to think that he's currently playing NHL level defence. Personally, I'd like to see him be at least solidly above average defensively at the WHL level before we bring him up to the NHL.

Another thought:
- Rielly, Gardiner, Liles, Phaneuf and Gunnarsson all shoot left, and Rielly, Gardiner and Liles specifically all play fairly similar games
- I don't see Gardiner and Phaneuf playing on the same pairing, both are aggressive puck handlers who like to take risks, the two of them on one pair probably means too many mistakes
- That leaves the top pairing with Phaneuf as the RD and Gunnarsson as the LD, and Gardiner the LD on the 2nd pairing (with Franson?)
- When Rielly comes up, I don't see him being good enough to play on the top pair with Phaneuf immediately, and I think Gardiner has a tight hold on 2nd pair LD. I see Rielly having a good shot to become our top pairing LD in the long term, but he'll have to mature into that role. When he first comes up, that means he should be playing LD on the 3rd pairing, which is Liles' spot. When Rielly does come up, I think it means we'll have to trade Liles to make room, so we better make sure that he's good enough to fill Liles' shoes before we make him a Leaf
Although I agree that Liles' game would be redundant with Rielly and Gardiner on the team, I still wouldnt trade him. The reason being that he would be a valuable mentor for a developing rielly and gardiner. I dont see this team contending in the next two years anyway, so I would be more focused in having rielly and gardiner reach their max potential. That way, they help us win more when we actually are competing. Short term pain, long term gain.

As for now, I would just pair up liles and Gardiner. Rielly and Komisarek/franson/holzer/ranger/kotska in the bottom pairing.

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12-14-2012, 08:40 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post


Comparing a winger to a defenseman...

Which position requires oneself to out-muscle players in the corner? I shouldn't have to tell you.
Don't all NHLers have to out-muscle other NHLers in the corner in theory?

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12-14-2012, 08:51 PM
  #255
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Don't all NHLers have to out-muscle other NHLers in the corner in theory?
Yeah technically, but one holds more weight respectively to their position than the other.

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12-14-2012, 09:22 PM
  #256
frankthetank91
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
So if you don't think it's beneficial to pair up either Gardiner, or Liles with Phaneuf, what makes you think a Reilly - Phaneuf pairing would work out well? As you yourself said, Reilly plays a very similar style as Liles/Gardiner.

On a side note, Liles and Gardiner were paired together at the start of the season fairly often IIRC, and that was the stretch when Liles was the most productive.
This is true. It's hard to imagine one of Liles and Gardiner being bumped down to the 3rd pairing and someone like Franson/Komi/Holzer on the 2nd. All 3 of those guys are best suited for the bottom pairing.

Gardiner-Liles, was a pretty good pairing, the issue is after is who's going to play the left side on the bottom pairing after?

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12-14-2012, 11:45 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post


Oh right I forgot that all of ice hockey is played in the defensive zone and wingers never, ever, EVER play the half boards or corners on the forecheck. When they get into the corners, they actually just leave the puck there and skate away. No physicality required. Thanks teach!

Honestly, who the hell do you think defenders have to out-muscle in the corners in the first place? The other teams' wingers *ultra facepalm*

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12-15-2012, 12:09 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Oh right I forgot that all of ice hockey is played in the defensive zone and wingers never, ever, EVER play the half boards or corners on the forecheck. When they get into the corners, they actually just leave the puck there and skate away. No physicality required. Thanks teach!

Honestly, who the hell do you think defenders have to out-muscle in the corners in the first place? The other teams' wingers *ultra facepalm*
Seriously? I shouldn't have to explain such a basic concept. Defenders steal the puck from those big hulking wingers that cycle the puck by pinning them to the boards or just being physical in general. Wingers elude defenseman using their agility and speed. Yeah, strength is an asset to have but by no means is it a necessity. Defenseman are "expected" to come out with the puck in a 1on1 battle with guys like Phil Kessel.

Also, let me know if you want me to link you to some Peter Puck videos.


Last edited by G51 K81*: 12-15-2012 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Peter Puck
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12-15-2012, 12:11 AM
  #259
ponder
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
So if you don't think it's beneficial to pair up either Gardiner, or Liles with Phaneuf, what makes you think a Reilly - Phaneuf pairing would work out well? As you yourself said, Reilly plays a very similar style as Liles/Gardiner.

On a side note, Liles and Gardiner were paired together at the start of the season fairly often IIRC, and that was the stretch when Liles was the most productive.
I'm definitely not SURE that a Rielly/Phaneuf pair would work, but for me it's about the hockey IQ. Phaneuf and Gardiner both have terrific skill sets, but they both make their share of poor decisions. I don't think they're great at reading the play, at evaluating when to take risks and when to stay back. Put them on the same pair, and I think there will be too many mistakes, both need someone who can cover for them. Rielly is absolutely an offensive dman as well, and needs plenty of work defensively, but I also think he has a really high hockey IQ. I the WHL he's very aggressive offensively, because he's just too talented relative to the competition NOT to try to make things happen constantly, but with his hockey sense I think that in the NHL he'll be good at reading the play and knowing when not to attack.

As for Liles/Gards of Liles/Phaneuf, I do think those are somewhat decent pairs, Liles is a bit more of a cerebral player. The problem is that even though Liles makes decent decisions, he's undersized and just not that effective defensively, so he's not the greatest guy to cover for Phaneuf or Gards when they get risky. Ultimately I think Gunnarsson/Phaneuf is a better pair than Liles/Phaneuf, and I also prefer Gardiner/Franson to Gardiner/Liles, especially since Gards and Liles both prefer to play the left side.

Who knows, maybe Rielly won't be great at covering for Phaneuf either, but I think he has the potential to mature into a decent defensive player (with a high hockey IQ and dynamic offensive ability).

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12-15-2012, 10:55 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Seriously? I shouldn't have to explain such a basic concept. Defenders steal the puck from those big hulking wingers that cycle the puck by pinning them to the boards or just being physical in general. Wingers elude defenseman using their agility and speed. Yeah, strength is an asset to have but by no means is it a necessity. Defenseman are "expected" to come out with the puck in a 1on1 battle with guys like Phil Kessel.

Also, let me know if you want me to link you to some Peter Puck videos.

I Lol'd

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12-15-2012, 11:14 AM
  #261
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Gardiner - Phaneuf
Liles - Gunnarsson
Rielly - Ranger

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12-15-2012, 11:39 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Yeah technically, but one holds more weight respectively to their position than the other.
Not really. Winning puck battles is a requisite skill to making plays to win games both in the defensive zone and in the offensive zone.

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12-15-2012, 12:14 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Comparing a winger to a defenseman...

Which position requires oneself to out-muscle players in the corner? I shouldn't have to tell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Seriously? I shouldn't have to explain such a basic concept. Defenders steal the puck from those big hulking wingers that cycle the puck by pinning them to the boards or just being physical in general. Wingers elude defenseman using their agility and speed. Yeah, strength is an asset to have but by no means is it a necessity. Defenseman are "expected" to come out with the puck in a 1on1 battle with guys like Phil Kessel.

Also, let me know if you want me to link you to some Peter Puck videos.
Really dude, lay off the "har har har you don't even know how hockey works har har har Peter Puck I'm hilarious" crap. I play at the college level, and if a college kid is telling you you're being juvenile, well...

To your original question, it's either both or neither by your logic. Gardiner isn't going to be out-muscling many wingers in the corners, and neither is Martin St. Louis. Like you just said, "strength is an asset to have but by no means is it a necessity." That, and its converse, go both ways. You don't need to be a physical defenseman to be a good defenseman; just look at Lidstrom, Kaberle, Enstrom, Timmonen, Rafalski, etc etc. The defense position doesn't require you to out muscle player in the corner, it requires you to come away with the puck.

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12-15-2012, 02:27 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Oh, he has played 116 WHL games this year?
Oh.....maybe you should not list a players experience.....have you seen him play in person?

I have over 100 times.....I have seen an marked difference in his game. He is much better defensively then you are likely aware of.

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01-30-2013, 12:21 PM
  #265
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Morgan Rielly update

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Lif...965/story.html


It will be interesting to see just where Morgan will play when the his WHL season is over. I say a lot depends on where the Leafs are in the standings. He will play in the NHL this year.....just not sure of how many games.

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01-30-2013, 12:23 PM
  #266
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He'll be with the big team in March. At least to start.

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01-30-2013, 12:25 PM
  #267
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He'll be with the big team in March. At least to start.
I seriously doubt that. He'll join the Marlies and then we'll go from there..

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01-30-2013, 12:26 PM
  #268
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Marlies.

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01-30-2013, 12:29 PM
  #269
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He should go to the Marlies and get some playoff games IMO. No point rushing him to the NHL.

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01-30-2013, 12:32 PM
  #270
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He should go to the Marlies and get some playoff games IMO. No point rushing him to the NHL.
Agree. A lot of course depends on what defenders we have who is fit and able to play. But best case scenario is for him to start with the Marlies and hopefully take them deep in their playoff.

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01-30-2013, 12:40 PM
  #271
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marlies. develop him properly please. see kadri

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01-30-2013, 01:33 PM
  #272
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marlies. develop him properly please. see kadri
kadri was being developed as a winger. they were ruining him.
kadri is kadri, allready knew how to play. 1st time in 3 years he has played center.

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01-30-2013, 01:34 PM
  #273
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marlies. develop him properly please. see kadri
Not all players need the AHL to develop properly. Rielly likely won't need any time down there outside of his ATO that he's likely to sign at the end of this season.

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01-30-2013, 01:35 PM
  #274
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kadri was being developed as a winger. they were ruining him.
kadri is kadri, allready knew how to play. 1st time in 3 years he has played center.
Clearly shows you do not watch any other team other than the Leafs.

He's played plenty of times as a center for the Marlies, especially this year.

Come on, man.

Anyway, back to Rielly. I think he'll see a game or two with the Leafs by the end of the year. Likely end up on the Marlies to help them in the playoffs.

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01-30-2013, 01:37 PM
  #275
diceman934
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Not all players need the AHL to develop properly. Rielly likely won't need any time down there outside of his ATO that he's likely to sign at the end of this season.
Rielly is already signed sealed and delivered.

Kadri is a poor example of developing.....he was mishandled in a big way.

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