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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:35 PM
  #751
SDig14
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
I don't think so. The Russians are arguably the best at producing dynamic, offensive threats. Perhaps even one of the better countries at producing puck moving defencemen.

But the mediocre goaltending and lack of stud defencemen in recent years is indicative of an asymmetrical Russian development program. Kulikov is the closest thing Russia's produced to a stud NHL defenceman since the 90s. In net they've got Bryz, a declining Nabokov, and a handful of young guys with potential (Varlamov, Bobrovsky, Khudobin, Vasilevski).

I think Canada is the best when you look at the depth of talent across all positions. Canada's got star talent at every position that gets cut from its final roster. Most other countries don't have that kind of star depth.

I don't like using the IIHF or even Olympic tournaments as a barometer because the round robin format means a single aberration can have significant impact in the final standings.
And that depth is likely why Canada has more success than any other nation when playing tournaments when EVERY country has their best players.

The U18s, U20s, and the Olympics are the 3 tournaments where countries bring their best players, and over the last 20 years it has been Canada and then everyone else.

If I was from another country I wouldn't take that as a slight at all. Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Czech Republic, and the USA all have had tons of great teams and produce tons of amazing talent.

I think another country would need to dominate at a certain level before they could pass Canada on any list.

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12-14-2012, 09:37 PM
  #752
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These are short tournaments where anything can happen. The fact is that Canada is the only nation that can ice a second team and possibly a third that could compete for the gold and almost certainly medal.

Canada is the top hockey nation by a very wide margin.

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12-15-2012, 12:53 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
Well u got the hfboard method. Look at the roster and make a conclusion like

1 Canada (Allways the best, no mather what)
2 USA (We got like 300 nhl third liners. We rock)
3 Sweden (Detroit red wings + a little extra)
4 Russia (Kovy, Ovi, Malkin, Dats and Semin)
5 Finland (Goalies)
6 Czech rep (Old, but good players)
7 Slovakia (Gabby and Hossa)
8 Switzerland (Hiller and 3 d pairings)
9 Germany (Seidenberg, Seidenberg, Seidenberg)
10 Denmark (6 Nhlrs)
11 Belarus (3 NHLrs)
12 Austria (3 NHLrs)
13 Latvia (1 NHLr)
14 Norway (0 NHL)
15 Ukraine (2 NHLrs, but nothing more)
16 Slovenia (Only Kopitar)
Hey! We have two, and while the other one is a fringe NHL player, he's currently outplaying all the other NHL-ers playing in EBEL, such as Vanek, Gagner and Grabner

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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Let's make it even more clear. We'll say Canada made the finals by beating Denmark, Italy and China. The Russians beat Sweden, Czech and the US. Now it really doesn't matter what you think you may or may not remember, we are discussing the ratings after the result. Would this scenario make Canada the better team when they clearly were not?
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I know that, there seems to be a team of nitpickers desperate to prove something. In the absurd example I provided, is Canada the better team?
How can you even ask that question if you haven't even given us the result of the final game? Oh, and before you add another piece to the scenario, at the point you've mentioned we're unable to say who's the better team. If Denmark, Italy and China made it to the later rounds, they were obviously about as good as Sweden, the Czech and the US. So I don't get your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
But the mediocre goaltending and lack of stud defencemen in recent years is indicative of an asymmetrical Russian development program. Kulikov is the closest thing Russia's produced to a stud NHL defenceman since the 90s. In net they've got Bryz, a declining Nabokov, and a handful of young guys with potential (Varlamov, Bobrovsky, Khudobin, Vasilevski).
You're missing a lot of players from the KHL, especially with goaltenders, such as Barulin, Koscheckin and Eremenko, all better than the ones you listed, save for perhaps Varlamov. I think Russia actually has better goalies than Canada at the moment.

I agree with you on the defense front, though, Canada is better without a doubt. But there are also a lot of great defensemen playing in the KHL that are better than Kulikov, take Nikulin and Denisov, for example. Volchenkov, to me, is also a stud NHL defenseman, but it's true that Canada has many more at that or higher level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
I think Canada is the best when you look at the depth of talent across all positions. Canada's got star talent at every position that gets cut from its final roster. Most other countries don't have that kind of star depth.

I don't like using the IIHF or even Olympic tournaments as a barometer because the round robin format means a single aberration can have significant impact in the final standings.
This I totally agree with.

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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Canada is the top hockey nation by a very wide margin.
Even if you think Canada is the top hockey nation, saying it is such by a very wide margin is stretching it a lot. I actually think it is, but I think Russia is very close.

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12-15-2012, 04:20 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I wish the Soccer WC worked like this. Most of the world's best players would be committed to their club teams while all of the best Canadians would be free to play anywhere at anytime.
lol, you make it sound like it's the Messis and Ronaldos of the world that prevent Canada from winning the WCup. In the reality Brazil or Germany could withdraw altogether and you'd still be as unlikely as you are now to get past Mexico, Honduras or Costa Rica to even reach the WCup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
They do keep shots on goal records, but they don't officially declare the team with the higher shots on goal totals to be the better team.
That's so unfair to Canadian whiners

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12-15-2012, 04:47 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
So... what you're saying is, when everyone is available to play in tournaments, Canada is the clear #1.
When playing in North America.

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12-15-2012, 05:54 AM
  #756
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Just out of curiosity, who do Canadiens believe to have been number 1 in 2006-2010? If the only way to build an objective ranking system should be on the basis of the olympics, then would not that mean that Canada was just the 7th best team for several years?

Everything else is just subjective opinions, only objective measure is a ranking system such as the IIHF ranking, even though it might be flawed, it is still better than basing onself on argumentation of who has the largest pool of NHL stars.

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12-15-2012, 06:13 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
When playing in North America.
What's your point? Home ice or region is meaningless or even a hinderance in international play.

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12-15-2012, 06:15 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
The IIHF gives the exact same weight to the 2010 WHC as it does to the 2010 Olympics. It gives more weight to the 2011 WHC than the Olympics. It makes perfect sense.
IIHF could make the rankings more respectable if they gave significant more weight to the OG.

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12-15-2012, 09:03 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
IIHF could make the rankings more respectable if they gave significant more weight to the OG.
I find that pretty silly as well.

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12-15-2012, 12:13 PM
  #760
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I wouldn't even put Russia in #2. Probably behind USA and maybe Sweden. I mean Sweden has won an OG and Russia hasn't (since NHLers started going). Russia folds like a cheap tent in a wind storm.

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12-15-2012, 12:15 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
U need 2 scoring lines. Players like Brad Richards, Jordan Staal, Neal, RNH etc are often not included in the Canadian A team according to canadian posters. Ive read alot of posts from Canadians here on Hfboards and alot of my favorite players are not included. Personally i love players like Clutterbuck, David Jones, Asham etc. Players that got alot of heart. A Canadian B team would have two fantastic scoring lines, a rly good PK line and a good grinder line. What more can u ask for? The Canadian B team will have a few natural leaders, while the A team will have about 10 NHL captains. That might cause problems.
I agree, but these are the kinds of guys who are typically eliminated in the Quarterfinals or before in the WHC. IMO, grinders are largely useless in the WHC.

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12-15-2012, 12:20 PM
  #762
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If the season is cancelled could we equate the upcoming World Championship of 2013 to the Olympics as far as the quality of play? I mean I sure hope that North Americans will participate since there is no play offs.

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12-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
How can you even ask that question if you haven't even given us the result of the final game? Oh, and before you add another piece to the scenario, at the point you've mentioned we're unable to say who's the better team. If Denmark, Italy and China made it to the later rounds, they were obviously about as good as Sweden, the Czech and the US. So I don't get your point.
I did give you the result my nitpicking friend. How did you come to the conclusion that China and Italy were "obviously" as good as Sweden, etc? We KNOW they aren't. That was a given I thought, but I guess you can never know yuor audience.

I thought the example was rather easy to grasp. But I'll simplify. If Canada had a much easier route to the final, then was dominated in the final, but won in the shootout after an terribly officiated game and the IIHF declared them better, does it make it so?

Pretend it's 2002, do you think Belarus was a tougher opponent than Sweden or would most hockey fans of even less than average intelligence know that Canada was handed a gift by Tommy Salo? Belarus beating Sweden surely didn't make them better. Right?

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12-15-2012, 12:27 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
If the season is cancelled could we equate the upcoming World Championship of 2013 to the Olympics as far as the quality of play? I mean I sure hope that North Americans will participate since there is no play offs.
Didn't happen in the last lockout 2005, The team Canada sent was better than usual, but not necessarily the Olympic team.

Face it, I know Europeans don't like it when N. Americans speak poorly of the World Championship since it is the most important thing on the European hockey calendar, we just don't place the same level of importance on it. It is what it is. Canada should send a better team, but still not the A team, maybe the B+ team.

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12-15-2012, 12:28 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I agree, but these are the kinds of guys who are typically eliminated in the Quarterfinals or before in the WHC. IMO, grinders are largely useless in the WHC.
It's been three years since Canada had a solid seven year run at the WHC's of three golds, two silvers and bronze but since that is so 2010 (after the Olympics but before the WHC's), it doesn't matter.

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12-15-2012, 12:40 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
lol, you make it sound like it's the Messis and Ronaldos of the world that prevent Canada from winning the WCup. In the reality Brazil or Germany could withdraw altogether and you'd still be as unlikely as you are now to get past Mexico, Honduras or Costa Rica to even reach the WCup.
For future reference, can you give me an internet tip to help others read sarcasm and hyperbole into a post. I thought it was obvious but clearly it wasn't to everyone.

And did I say we were winning the WC?

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12-15-2012, 12:40 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Didn't happen in the last lockout 2005, The team Canada sent was better than usual, but not necessarily the Olympic team.

Face it, I know Europeans don't like it when N. Americans speak poorly of the World Championship since it is the most important thing on the European hockey calendar, we just don't place the same level of importance on it. It is what it is. Canada should send a better team, but still not the A team, maybe the B+ team.
But if all the best players available, does it really matter what you label a tournament? The only reason people praise Olympics, IMO, is this is the only tourny that is allowed all the best available players to participates. If everyone has a chance to play, then they should, regardless of the prize.

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12-15-2012, 12:51 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
But if all the best players available, does it really matter what you label a tournament? The only reason people praise Olympics, IMO, is this is the only tourny that is allowed all the best available players to participates. If everyone has a chance to play, then they should, regardless of the prize.
It has nothing to do labeling the tournament, The world championships have always been the number 1 tournament for Europeans, players and fans... it has never been so for Canadians and Americans, I hope that all the best players show up this year if the NHL season is wiped out, but based on what happened in 2005, I'm not expecting it...but who knows, maybe Hockey Canada will insist on sending all Olympic players since 2005 they didn't send the A team and went into an Olympic year grossly unprepared... perhaps they'll take a different approach this year, we'll see ... I'm sure Canadian fans are up for it...not so sure about our players, I hear Jerome Iglina already has Hockey Canada's number blocked on his mobile and is gone into hiding.

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12-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
It has nothing to do labeling the tournament, The world championships have always been the number 1 tournament for Europeans, players and fans... it has never been so for Canadians and Americans, I hope that all the best players show up this year if the NHL season is wiped out, but based on what happened in 2005, I'm not expecting it...but who knows, maybe Hockey Canada will insist on sending all Olympic players since 2005 they didn't send the A team and went into an Olympic year grossly unprepared... perhaps they'll take a different approach this year, we'll see ... I'm sure Canadian fans are up for it...not so sure about our players, I hear Jerome Iglina already has Hockey Canada's number blocked on his mobile and is gone into hiding.
Canadians just plain don't care about the World Championships. We don't send our best and we don't place very much significance on it.

I don't really see how other nations can compete with Canada as top hockey nation realistically. We just produce too many good hockey players in various roles. We have exceptional depth in all areas. That isn't a slight on any other hockey nation either. Canada seems to consistently produce the largest pool of players that do an excellent job of filling a wide variety of roles and also produce the most "star" players (as well as the best really). I think while international tournaments (both best on best and otherwise) do hold some significance, I think there has to be some emphasis placed on the amount and quality of professional hockey players produced through each nations development programs as well. Canada has everyone beat there, and I don't think the international competitions we currently have are the be all and end all to ranking hockey nations. Using them that way would be pretty silly and can paint some pretty inaccurate pictures at times. There are more nuances present that do not get properly explored and analyzed if you focus your judgement on that one particular aspect rather than broadening the scope.

That being said Sweden and Russia are no slouches and deserve to be treated with the appropriate amount of respect as great hockey nations themselves. The difference between them and Canada is not great and they should command a certain amount of respect and prestige for their contributions and successes in hockey both in the past and present. Too much emphasis on nationalism in hockey.

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12-15-2012, 05:12 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
What's your point? Home ice or region is meaningless or even a hinderance in international play.
Canada has never won a self termed "best on best" tournament outside of North America.

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12-15-2012, 05:24 PM
  #771
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IIHF could make the rankings more respectable if they gave significant more weight to the OG.
That would really suck for the teams that fail to make the Olympics. They would be stuck in the rankings for next 4 years.

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12-15-2012, 05:27 PM
  #772
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The IIHF ranking shows how teams have performed at the last 5 IIHF events (the meaningful ones that is, so obviously the WJC isn't part of it). Nothing more. Funny it's the same people who allegedly "don't take it seriously" that want to read a lot more into it and are obviously upset that Canada isn't #1.
The nerve of the IIHF to base the IIHF rankings on results from IIHF santioned tournaments!!! I think the rankings should be based simply on how awesome a team would look like on paper if all of the best players were available.

It doesn't matter anyway because despite all the posts some here will make every time the topic comes up Canadians don't care about the IIHF rankings.

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12-15-2012, 05:42 PM
  #773
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Canada has never won a self termed "best on best" tournament outside of North America.
Well there have only been two "best on best" (AKA tournaments Canadian fans generally value based on apparent arbitrary criteria) held outside of NA (which probably isn't a good thing) in the sports history so it might be a bit early to draw any conclusions...

On the other hand Canada has never failed to make a final in NA and haven't made a final and overall have just a 7-5 record (3-4 against the so called big 7) outside of NA so perhaps there is something to it. If Canada doesn't pick up a medal in '14 then I would be pretty confident in saying there is something to it.

To expand on this a bit in the two NA Olympics Canada and the US have made the final and in the other two Canada has been pretty 'meh' and the US has been downright bad. Still a pretty small sample size but perhaps there is something going on similar to the soccer WC where SA sides rarely win outside of the Americas and European sides rarely win outside of Europe.


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12-15-2012, 05:50 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Well there have only been two "best on best" (AKA tournaments Canadian fans generally value based on apparent arbitrary criteria) held outside of NA (which probably isn't a good thing) in the sports history so it might be a bit early to draw any conclusions...

On the other hand Canada has never failed to make a final in NA and haven't made a final and overall have just a 7-5 record outside of NA so perhaps there is something to it. If Canada doesn't pick up a medal in '14 then I would be pretty confident in saying there is something to it.

To expand on this a bit in the two NA Olympics Canada and the US have made the final and in the other two Canada has been pretty 'meh' and the US has been downright bad. Still a pretty small sample size but perhaps there is something going on similar to the soccer WC where SA sides rarely win outside of the Americas and European sides rarely win outside of Europe.
The US has been downright terrible outside of North America. Their last medal was in Japan in 1972. Nagano was a massive embarrassment on and off the ice, and Turin was at least just on the ice.

...and you can't blame big ice either because Salt Lake City was played on international ice.

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12-15-2012, 05:54 PM
  #775
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I think, we as fans, are entitled to hope that given a chance any hockey nation would be represented in its full potential. I think we all agree that waiting for an all star competition every 4 years is painful. Thus regardless whether it is a World Cup, World Championship, or Olympics, we could enjoy the best quality hockey, especially if a chance presents itself, like it might in the spring of 2013. Usually, the negative perception of World Championship coming form North American fans, is that its best players are competing in Stanley cup playoffs, this might not be the case this time. So Canada, get off your high horse, and take this one seriously once in a lifetime, because, if you don't, the excuse of "we don't care" this time is going to look very lame.

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