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Derrick Pouliot | Defenseman | Portland (WHL) | 1st Round, 8th overall

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Old
12-15-2012, 07:47 AM
  #726
Alesle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limite View Post
That's hilarious. The person making the Pens ratings on HF is nothing is HF nothing but a single guy on the internet.

The bottom line is that Pouliot's CV doesn't look like a #8 pick. Ranked lowrer than #15 by all scouting combines. Isn't dominating juniors in his post dratf year, which you expect from a top prospect. (See that guy in the Q). *First* cut from Team Canada.

Enough with rationalizations. Anyone who can be object has to agree that so far Pouliot has disappointed at every turn.
Maybe you can aware me on how many players that were available at #8 made it past the first cut from Team Canada this year, and that you think would've been good picks at #8?

While you're at it, feel free to mention the top prospects available at #8 that are dominating juniors this season, preferably someone without question marks regarding their age, work ethic and ability to handle physical play.

The way I see it, the prospect quality dropped considerably after the first 5 picks last season. After the first 5 picks I believe there was very little separating the remaining players picked in the first round, and I also believe this to be part of the reason why Carolina were willing to part with their #8 pick.

I don't know if DP was a good or bad pick at #8, it's way too early to tell. What I do know is that I've been impressed with him on the occasions I've seen him play, and that he is very good in the two areas I personally rate highest among prospects; skating ability and hockey IQ.

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12-15-2012, 08:01 AM
  #727
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boy, that escalated quickly

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12-15-2012, 08:03 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
The way I see it, the prospect quality dropped considerably after the first 5 picks last season. After the first 5 picks I believe there was very little separating the remaining players picked in the first round, and I also believe this to be part of the reason why Carolina were willing to part with their #8 pick.
I agree with you to some extent, but if you are right, it begs the obvious question: if there was little separating the top players after #5, then why in the world didn't Shero go for a forward, which they really need, rather then a defenseman that they don't. If you don't know who is more likely to turn out, might as well go for need.

The Pens just saw too much of Pouliot when scouting Morrow and fell in love with him. That's exactly the way they wasted a #2 pick on Sneep. He was at Chuck Grillo's camp and they saw him all the time and fell in love with him.

I also agree that Carolina only gave up the #8 pick because this was a very weak draft. That's one reason that I thought most people vastly overrated the return in the Staal trade.

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12-15-2012, 08:26 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
I agree with you to some extent, but if you are right, it begs the obvious question: if there was little separating the top players after #5, then why in the world didn't Shero go for a forward, which they really need, rather then a defenseman that they don't. If you don't know who is more likely to turn out, might as well go for need.
I can only assume DP was the BPA from their draft board, and that the organization values getting what they consider to be the best player higher than trying to address a perceived organizational weakness that we have no idea if it will still be a weakness by the time the player in question is ready for the big league.

Also, although "we" might consider there to be little separating the players, there may be a large difference between the players on the individual team boards.

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12-15-2012, 08:30 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Find me a successful NHL blueliner in the last decade+ that dominated the W. Once again, the most touted pick in that span was Bouwmeester and he avg exactly a point a game. I don't know of any top end blueliner in the NHL from the W, that avg more than a point a game.
Is Brad Stuart successful enough for you? 62 points in 59 games, plus 23 points in 21 playoff games, in his 3rd WHL season (98-99). He had 65 in 72 the season before when he was drafted 3rd overall by the Sharks. Of course he turned into quite a different NHLer but he has size and strength Pouliot won't ever have. Josh Gorges (02-03), Kris Russell (06-07) and Jonathan Blum (08-09) also averaged more than 1 ppg for a season. Blum was a 1st round pick for Nashville.

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Being cut from a stacked team Canada means nothing for the future of DP. If it did, HOFers and current stars who got cut like Roy, Seguin, RNH, Green, Eric Staal, Brodeur and Al Macinnis would be names we don't recognize.
I think an 8th overall pick who is healthy and 2nd in D scoring (behind an overager playing his 5th season) in one of the top junior leagues in the world should be expected to make the WJC. Anything else is a disappointment at this point. He'd have had a much better shot if he wasn't Canadian but still. You're right, making those teams doesn't make or break your NHL future. But to me it says he has more flaws than you'd want from someone picked that high.

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The only people who think DP is having a disappointing season are [mod] the ones who think he should be the next Bobby Orr because the Pens apparently passed on HOF talent like FP and Grigs (we will just ignore the red flags that made those two slip so far and induct them into the Hall anyway).
I don't think he's having a bad season at all, but I'd still rather have one of the high-profile forwards that were still available at 8th. We're at a point where we won't have enough ice time to properly develop all these guys in WBS. Especially not enough to trade them for NHL-proven wingers while Sid and Geno are still in their prime. It took us seven years to turn Goose into Neal.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-16-2012 at 12:18 PM. Reason: ...
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12-15-2012, 08:35 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
That's hilarious. The person making the Pens ratings on HF is nothing is HF nothing but a single guy on the internet.
I thought Ian had a squeeze. Regardless of his love life, I'm fairly certain he gets input from others for his material.


Quote:
Originally Posted by limite View Post
The bottom line is that Pouliot's CV doesn't look like a #8 pick. Ranked lowrer than #15 by all scouting combines. Isn't dominating juniors in his post dratf year, which you expect from a top prospect. (See that guy in the Q).
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
There is more to dominating that point totals for a defenseman. Or maybe you don't understand how hockey works.

There's more to dominating than just scoring points for a defenseman? I'll agree with that. What about forwards? Aside from scoring a lot of points, how is Grigorenko dominating?

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12-15-2012, 08:41 AM
  #732
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Ha. I'm going to sit back and watch this thread for the next day or so. It's gearing up to be some good reading.

And for those who didn't like the DP pick (myself included), he's having pretty close to the best season you could have expected so far. Making the juniors would have been nice but the lockout left too many other top prospects in the mix (Rielly and Hamilton for example). It's way to early to definitively trash Pouliot anyways. He was a project when he was drafted and he still is. Give him a little more time before you completely bury him.

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12-15-2012, 09:54 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
Is Brad Stuart successful enough for you? 62 points in 59 games, plus 23 points in 21 playoff games, in his 3rd WHL season (98-99). He had 65 in 72 the season before when he was drafted 3rd overall by the Sharks. Of course he turned into quite a different NHLer but he has size and strength Pouliot won't ever have. Josh Gorges (02-03), Kris Russell (06-07) and Jonathan Blum (08-09) also averaged more than 1 ppg for a season. Blum was a 1st round pick for Nashville
DP has 34 in 32, slightly over a point a game. Are we are going to nitpick over a few extra points to try and make a point?

To me DP is avg a point a game.

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I think an 8th overall pick who is healthy and 2nd in D scoring (behind an overager playing his 5th season) in one of the top junior leagues in the world should be expected to make the WJC. Anything else is a disappointment at this point. He'd have had a much better shot if he wasn't Canadian but still. You're right, making those teams doesn't make or break your NHL future. But to me it says he has more flaws than you'd want from someone picked that high
For people with unrealistic expectations, sure.

Quote:
I don't think he's having a bad season at all, but I'd still rather have one of the high-profile forwards that were still available at 8th. We're at a point where we won't have enough ice time to properly develop all these guys in WBS. Especially not enough to trade them for NHL-proven wingers while Sid and Geno are still in their prime. It took us seven years to turn Goose into Neal.
He is actually having the exact same kind of season on par with some of the best blueliners to come out of the W.

No blueliners in the last decade have dominated the league.

It simply doesn't happen.

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12-15-2012, 10:08 AM
  #734
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Just sit back and watch the ****-storm. It's hilarious, keep going.

Pouliot got beat out by a player selected in the top-10 last year, 2 top-5 picks from this year, 2 shutdown D that were 2nd round picks last year, the 12th pick from last year's draft, and another D that was a 2nd round pick last year. He lost to either people who were better than him or that were older than him. I'm actually very happy with his production this year. He looks like he could get more points than Morrow did last year. And I'm happy Morrow broke his slump last night.

Dave Molinari posted an article about the Staal trade, and he had this quote at the bottom:

"A portion of the Penguins' fan base has protested the way Shero has stockpiled defensemen in recent years, but there's always a market for those and it won't be a shock if Shero proves that shortly after, or even before, play in the NHL resumes, whenever that is."

Exactly. Puck moving D will ALWAYS be in demand. How many players like Pouliot are in the league? Not that many. We can find wingers relatively easily. Crosby will continue to score, even if he has Adams on his line instead of Ovechkin.


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12-15-2012, 11:19 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
Just sit back and watch the ****-storm. It's hilarious, keep going.

Pouliot got beat out by a player selected in the top-10 last year, 2 top-5 picks from this year, 2 shutdown D that were 2nd round picks last year, the 12th pick from last year's draft, and another D that was a 2nd round pick last year. He lost to either people who were better than him or that were older than him. I'm actually very happy with his production this year. He looks like he could get more points than Morrow did last year. And I'm happy Morrow broke his slump last night.

Dave Molinari posted an article about the Staal trade, and he had this quote at the bottom:

"A portion of the Penguins' fan base has protested the way Shero has stockpiled defensemen in recent years, but there's always a market for those and it won't be a shock if Shero proves that shortly after, or even before, play in the NHL resumes, whenever that is."

Exactly. Puck moving D will ALWAYS be in demand. How many players like Pouliot are in the league? Not that many. We can find wingers relatively easily. Crosby will continue to score, even if he has Adams on his line instead of Ovechkin.
Exactly, that's what I was saying, but nobody can be told that because some people act like they know more than the organization and when someone says these PMD's have value, people sarcastically say "Oh don't worry, Shero will just trade ____ for a top 6 winger".

Fact is, he's done it with Goligoski and Ryan Whitney, why not with any other guy in the prospect pool. Now obviously this value isn't there yet and they have to play in the NHL first, but there is a market for them.

Teams are paying big prices for PMDs (Matt Carle getting $5.5M, Martin getting $5M, etc.) Shero is smart for drafting these defensemen, because he doesn't draft by team need, he acquires assets at the draft, and with him stocking up on D men, not only is he building his team's future blue line, but he has assets that can be traded for solid players in the future.

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12-15-2012, 11:40 AM
  #736
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Yeah, I think Pouliot benefited from having the skill set (PMD) that the Pens brass values most. They think puck movers like him are worth a premium top 8 type of pick. Maybe other teams and fans don't agree but oh well.

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12-15-2012, 12:01 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by limite View Post

The bottom line is that Pouliot's CV doesn't look like a #8 pick. Ranked lowrer than #15 by all scouting combines. Isn't dominating juniors in his post dratf year, which you expect from a top prospect. (See that guy in the Q). *First* cut from Team Canada.

Enough with rationalizations. Anyone who can be object has to agree that so far Pouliot has disappointed at every turn.
I actually made a little metacritic style excel sheet for the draft using a bunch of scouting sources, he was ranked at about an average of 18 overall which was 17th best of the top skaters. Lindholm was 16th and Rielly was 8th so they technically were even bigger "reaches".

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12-15-2012, 01:09 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Only the clueless assume a player's chances of being an impact player in the NHL are gone once they get cut from team Canada.

Me? I like to actually watch players and make up my own mind.
That's great that you are able to watch these kids play.

Honest question:

What makes your opinion/scouting ability better than Mac and all the guys who get paid to put out scouting reports?

You keep ******** on people who don't have the opportunity to watch prospects and make their opinions by reading scouts reports on them. However, even if I was able to watch everyone of these kids I'd still prolly defer to professional scouts, because it's their job to scout hockey talent.

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12-15-2012, 01:22 PM
  #739
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Jiggy, I'm a little surprised that you, of all people, are focusing so much on Pouliot's stats to prove your point about him. You're usually one of the first people to say something to the effect of "watch the player, not the stats" when evaluating talent (which I agree with, by the way). Yet a lot of your posts in the last couple of pages of this thread seem to focus on Pouliot's points per game as proof of his performance.

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12-15-2012, 02:02 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
That's great that you are able to watch these kids play.

Honest question:

What makes your opinion/scouting ability better than Mac and all the guys who get paid to put out scouting reports?

You keep ******** on people who don't have the opportunity to watch prospects and make their opinions by reading scouts reports on them. However, even if I was able to watch everyone of these kids I'd still prolly defer to professional scouts, because it's their job to scout hockey talent.
And professional scouts never mess up, like, all the time? Because they do.

Whose opinion do you value more -- team scouts or scouting services?

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12-15-2012, 02:26 PM
  #741
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And when you look back at rankings, 9/10 times, there are more head scratchers than anything else. Watch, even with the stable of defensemen we have, the top 1 or 2 will be guys no one is even paying attention to. That's how it always happens.

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12-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #742
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Obviously, the Pens saw something they didn't like in Forsberg and Grigs, so that is why they didn't pick them. Also, you have to remember that Sid will score no matter his line-mates.

If anything, I'd like to see the Pens trade one of their D prospects for a scoring winger prospect. I could actually see a deal like that with the Ducks. They need puck-moving D (like Morrow, Pouliot or Despres) and we need a scoring winger (like Etem or Palmieri). I'd do a 1 for 1 swap on any of those.

Pouliot got awarded another assist last night, bringing him to 35 points in 32 games. Not bad for a "bust"


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12-15-2012, 02:54 PM
  #743
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Ducks have Fowler, Vatanen, and now Lindholm. It's not a need for them.

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12-15-2012, 02:59 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
Ducks have Fowler, Vatanen, and now Lindholm. It's not a need for them.
Dammit, well trash that then. I knew they had the latter 2, but I completely forgot about Fowler

I know the Flyers literally have no prospects whatsoever (that's why they are ranked dead last), but they can go suck a D and deal with their own problems. Who has a weaker D pool but a strong F pool?

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12-15-2012, 03:06 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
Obviously, the Pens saw something they didn't like in Forsberg and Grigs, so that is why they didn't pick them. Also, you have to remember that Sid will score no matter his line-mates.

If anything, I'd like to see the Pens trade one of their D prospects for a scoring winger prospect. I could actually see a deal like that with the Ducks. They need puck-moving D (like Morrow, Pouliot or Despres) and we need a scoring winger (like Etem or Palmieri). I'd do a 1 for 1 swap on any of those.

Pouliot got awarded another assist last night, bringing him to 35 points in 32 games. Not bad for a "bust"
No one has called him a "bust". Just expressing dissapointment of him not making the WJC team or saying they rather have had the Pens pick someone else.

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12-15-2012, 03:07 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
That's great that you are able to watch these kids play.

Honest question:

What makes your opinion/scouting ability better than Mac and all the guys who get paid to put out scouting reports?

You keep ******** on people who don't have the opportunity to watch prospects and make their opinions by reading scouts reports on them. However, even if I was able to watch everyone of these kids I'd still prolly defer to professional scouts, because it's their job to scout hockey talent.
Do you ever see me whine about a pick and ramble on how it was a bad pick?

It will never happen. I didn't like the Maatta pick, but I didn't whine like you did about DP. I accept the pick after about five minutes, assume the Pens org knows better than I do, and then watch their farm develop. Now I'm quite happy with the pick.

I rarely if ever go back and say "they should of taken so and so..."

I never say a prospect is a bust after a few months or even a few years. I've seen way too much of a roller coaster ride how these guys develop to ever be so ignorant and make such absurd claims.

You nor the other people here whining how DP is a bad pick, would ever have the stones to say that to his face or Shero. That's why people like msg boards - so they can say stupid **** without repercussions.

However, if you want to try and discuss prospect development and throw patience and reason out the window, I'm going to call you on it.

And for the last time Bmacs list is not representative of internal lists. Org don't spent millions of dollars and thousands of scouting hours to release that info to the public.


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12-15-2012, 04:20 PM
  #747
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No one has called him a "bust". Just expressing dissapointment of him not making the WJC team or saying they rather have had the Pens pick someone else.
It was a weak draft. We know that Shero doesn't like Europeans on his roster (he has 1 everyday European, and that's Malkin, who I think is from the Asian part of Russia). European style of hockey is a lot different than Pittsburgh. If Detroit would have had the 8th pick, I cannot bet enough money on how they would have picked him. He just doesn't fit in here. Grigs has work ethic issues, and not to mention that whole age scandal right before the draft. Too much baggage to go along. Instead, we got a D that can see the ice amazingly and fits the mold of our best D right now very closely. I don't see the issue.

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12-15-2012, 04:34 PM
  #748
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The sad part of DP is that he's going to be a whipping boy. I can see it from 10 miles away. He's the new Staal.

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12-15-2012, 06:39 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Grigs, FP or DP being successful NHL players are not mutually exclusive to each other.
Of course not. I hope nobody got that impression from my post.

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There is a reason FP and Grigs fell out of the top ten. If they were the can't miss, game breaking talent many on here want to sell us on, there is no way they would of slipped as far as they did.
I don't recall saying anything about either of them being "can't miss". Very, very few prospects outside of the lotto are 100% wart-free.

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Grigs is a dynamic talent, but the fact is he gets lazy and seems uninterested, and the biggest red flag is he tends to disappear when teams get physical with him.
How many big, talented centers have we seen this written about? Probably all of them at one time or another, from Beliveau to Lecavalier to Lemieux to Malkin.

As for wilting when the going gets tough, the same was said about Couturier (another big center) going into the 2011 draft because of his uninspired playoffs. We've since seen differently.

The bottom line is that you're never going to draft a huge center with gamebreaking talent and a relentless bulldog mentality at #8 overall. Elite 18 year old talent at that spot is going to have a chink or two in the armour, so you have to determine whether those teenaged blemishes are too much of a risk. The Pens did. We'll see if they were right.

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With FP, there was a fear he might not have a high offensive ceiling.
One man's "safe" is another man's "well-rounded". Similar claims were leveled at Toews and Landeskog.

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I could see maybe *****ing in five or six years if these two are tearing up the league and DP isn't doing well.

For now, I think people need to realize there are reasons why the Pens were not the only ones to pass these two over.
That would really be from hindsight though, wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You nor the other people here whining how DP is a bad pick, would ever have the stones to say that to his face or Shero. That's why people like msg boards - so they can say stupid **** without repercussions.
C'mon Jig. I don't think most here have access to Penguins upper-management, and even if they did, it's not really reasonable to expect somebody to go up to a person they don't know well and start criticizing them, let alone if they're part of an organization they support.

I dunno. Maybe you're different and would waltz up to Bylsma out of the blue and tell him it was idiotic to call up Chris Conner in the 2011 playoffs. It's not the sort of thing I'd have the inclination to do.

Quote:
And for the last time Bmacs list is not representative of internal lists. Org don't spent millions of dollars and thousands of scouting hours to release that info to the public.
I absolutely believe that McKenzie's list was a cross-section of scouts' honest opinions - I don't know why we should believe otherwise from the most reliable source in the business. Of course, there's no shortage of dissension among scouts even at their own draft tables.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 12-15-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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12-16-2012, 12:32 AM
  #750
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Do you ever see me whine about a pick and ramble on how it was a bad pick?

It will never happen. I didn't like the Maatta pick, but I didn't whine like you did about DP. I accept the pick after about five minutes, assume the Pens org knows better than I do, and then watch their farm develop. Now I'm quite happy with the pick.

I rarely if ever go back and say "they should of taken so and so..."

I never say a prospect is a bust after a few months or even a few years. I've seen way too much of a roller coaster ride how these guys develop to ever be so ignorant and make such absurd claims.

You nor the other people here whining how DP is a bad pick, would ever have the stones to say that to his face or Shero. That's why people like msg boards - so they can say stupid **** without repercussions.

However, if you want to try and discuss prospect development and throw patience and reason out the window, I'm going to call you on it.

And for the last time Bmacs list is not representative of internal lists. Org don't spent millions of dollars and thousands of scouting hours to release that info to the public.
So it's ok to assume that the Pens scouts are right but not ok to assume that the scouts that release rankings are right?

That seems pretty hypocritical Jiggy.

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