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debate between top 6's....

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06-01-2006, 12:29 PM
  #1
Leetchie
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debate between top 6's....

this may be a little off topic but...

a friend of mine and i had this debate, and i'd like to hear your choices and why.

would you rather have a top 6 set of forwards from the edmonton oilers in the 80's or a top 6 in 2007 that features ovechkin, crosby, heatley, hossa, havlat, and zetterberg on your top two lines?

also, who would your top 6 from edmonton be?

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06-01-2006, 12:42 PM
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Oilers.

Simpson - Gretzky- Kurri
Tikkanen - Messier - Anderson

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06-01-2006, 12:49 PM
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pld459666
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in their primes

the group of

Simpson - Gretzky- Kurri
Tikkanen - Messier - Anderson

Would be a better group of players to bet the farm on.

Heatley - Ovechkin - Hossa
Zetterberg - Sidney - Havlat

I personally think that Messier's like would be able to defensively and physically dominate Ovechkin's line thus negating both lines.

Then we have The Great One and his guys, in my opinion, would outscore the Crosby line thus giving the edge to the 80's top 6 players.

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06-01-2006, 12:50 PM
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Oilers...

Ditto SBoB.

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06-01-2006, 12:51 PM
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True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Oilers.

Simpson - Gretzky- Kurri
Tikkanen - Messier - Anderson
Carefull, you are dating yourself. This type of post shows the clear age divide that exists on this board. On one hand, you have the greates collection of talent ever on one team. On the other, you have a bunch of young, exciting plalyers from this day and age.
Some of the younger people simply have no idea of just HOW good the above 6 players were together. And then throw in Coffey (anyone remember just how good he was?) on defense....

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06-01-2006, 01:22 PM
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CM Lundqvist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Carefull, you are dating yourself. This type of post shows the clear age divide that exists on this board. On one hand, you have the greates collection of talent ever on one team. On the other, you have a bunch of young, exciting plalyers from this day and age.
Some of the younger people simply have no idea of just HOW good the above 6 players were together. And then throw in Coffey (anyone remember just how good he was?) on defense....
I'm only 20, and I know the assemblance of talent from the 80's Oilers is BY FAR the better choice than the kids of today. There may be an age divide, but 9 out of 10 smart hockey fans who have been watching for a while will pick the Oilers over those young guns. The intangibles they bring are what puts them WELL OVER THE TOP. The only player on the kids team that has the intangibles to compete with the Oilers is Ovechkin. My lines would be a little different though...

Gretzky-Tikkanen-Kurri
Messier-Simpson-Anderson

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06-01-2006, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretzNYR99
I'm only 20, and I know the assemblance of talent from the 80's Oilers is BY FAR the better choice than the kids of today. There may be an age divide, but 9 out of 10 smart hockey fans who have been watching for a while will pick the Oilers over those young guns. The intangibles they bring are what puts them WELL OVER THE TOP. The only player on the kids team that has the intangibles to compete with the Oilers is Ovechkin. My lines would be a little different though...

Gretzky-Tikkanen-Kurri
Messier-Simpson-Anderson
Do you think those 6 could compete in today's NHL?

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06-01-2006, 01:29 PM
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Fletch
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They can easily compete...

Their style doesn't differ much from many others' currently in the league. Gretzky made it through the clutch and grab era, as did Mess, so in a little bit more open environment, I think they'd thrive, as would the others. But I think they are worth more together than separately.

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06-01-2006, 01:32 PM
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True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose
Do you think those 6 could compete in today's NHL?
Very well. They would be unstopable.

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06-01-2006, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretzNYR99
I'm only 20, and I know the assemblance of talent from the 80's Oilers is BY FAR the better choice than the kids of today. There may be an age divide, but 9 out of 10 smart hockey fans who have been watching for a while will pick the Oilers over those young guns. The intangibles they bring are what puts them WELL OVER THE TOP. The only player on the kids team that has the intangibles to compete with the Oilers is Ovechkin. My lines would be a little different though...

Gretzky-Tikkanen-Kurri
Messier-Simpson-Anderson
Tikk was on that line off and on, but in reality, Simpson makes more sence on gretz line.... kurri sitting in the slot waiting for the one timer and simp doing what he always did best, work the front of the net. gretz would find one of the two open eventually..

tikk main role was always defence, essentially a blanket over who ever was a threat, while mess and anderson gave the defence and goalies nightmares in transition...

kurri was good enough defencivly and gretz backchecking was always just enough, no real need for a defencive specialist on that line...

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06-01-2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose
Do you think those 6 could compete in today's NHL?
You were too young to see Gretzky in his prime, but if you thought Jagr and his 123 points was incredible for the Rangers this year, Gretzky would have had that by the Olympic break.

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06-01-2006, 02:59 PM
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Q038
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bit of a twist on this...

since your young gun players were from the rest of the nhl combined i think it only fair to throw out a list of the variety of 80 players as well...

M. Messier, W. Gretzky, D. Hawerchuk
M. Bossy, M. Lemieux, P. Stastny

pick your poison;

Kurri, Ciccarelli, LaFontaine, M. Dionne, D Savard, G. anderson, B.Trottier, S. Yzerman all could make that list..

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06-01-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q038
bit of a twist on this...

since your young gun players were from the rest of the nhl combined i think it only fair to throw out a list of the variety of 80 players as well...

M. Messier, W. Gretzky, D. Hawerchuk
M. Bossy, M. Lemieux, P. Stastny

pick your poison;

Kurri, Ciccarelli, LaFontaine, M. Dionne, D Savard, G. anderson, B.Trottier, S. Yzerman all could make that list..

The idea wasn't to compare 2006 to 1984. The main reason for me bringing this up is fantasy hockey related (I know, I know...). I'm close to assembling that kind of line up in a keeper fantasy league, and I insisted that that top six would rival any in the history of the NHL. He brought up the Oilers of the 80's, so for comparison's sake, what do you guys think these two lines would put up in terms of goals in, say, 1984?

Ovechkin-Crosby-Zetterberg
Heatley-Havlat-Hossa

Ex: Ovechkin 63 goals. Crosby 44 goals. etc.

It should say something that I've taken six of the most exciting players in the NHL today and compared them to ONE team's top six forwards in 1984. That speaks volumes about how good that team was.

And again, this is keeping in mind everything. The '84 Oilers had incredible chemistry, but keep in mind GPG in 1984 was 3.95 (the Oilers had 5.5 vs the league's 3.75 or so) and in 2006 it was 3.08. Also, my argument was very fantasy hockey-based, and we all know that a team on paper is very different from the one on the ice.

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06-01-2006, 05:15 PM
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Well considering the Oilers were a dynasty and none of the second group have proven anything, it's pretty easy.

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06-01-2006, 05:31 PM
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Leetchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice
Well considering the Oilers were a dynasty and none of the second group have proven anything, it's pretty easy.

In terms of accomplishments, sure. Don't forget that part of that dynasty was the whole team, which included Paul Coffey, and that none of those six players play together (except for Heatley and Havlat, to a certain degree). FYI, adjusted to 1984 standards, taking 2005-2006 stats, this is what these guys would have produced:

Heatley 63
Ovechkin 65
Crosby 49
Hossa 49
Zetterberg 49
Havlat 11 (51)

286 (326)

Gretzky 87
Kurri 52
Messier 37
Anderson 54
Hughes 27
Hunter 22

279


If you factor in Paul Coffey instead of Dave Hunter, the '84 top six scorers put up 297 goals.

The '06 All-Star squad would have managed 286 goals, and that's with Havlat playing just 18 games (adjusted, his goal total would be 51 in 80 games).

You can argue both sides all you want, but remember that the '06 squad didn't play together. Crosby and Ovechkin's numbers would likely be higher if they played together.

What you CAN'T debate is that the '84 Oilers did win the Cup. They DID play together and they WERE very successful. Clearly, the '06 kids haven't accomplished 1/10th of that, but it's all a hypothetical debate anyway. Being that this was started based on a fantasy hockey team, I'd venture to say that the '06 squad would do better on paper, but no line could possibly compare to the '84 one in terms of actual play.

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06-01-2006, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetchie
The idea wasn't to compare 2006 to 1984. The main reason for me bringing this up is fantasy hockey related (I know, I know...). I'm close to assembling that kind of line up in a keeper fantasy league, and I insisted that that top six would rival any in the history of the NHL. He brought up the Oilers of the 80's, so for comparison's sake, what do you guys think these two lines would put up in terms of goals in, say, 1984?

Ovechkin-Crosby-Zetterberg
Heatley-Havlat-Hossa

Ex: Ovechkin 63 goals. Crosby 44 goals. etc.

It should say something that I've taken six of the most exciting players in the NHL today and compared them to ONE team's top six forwards in 1984. That speaks volumes about how good that team was.

And again, this is keeping in mind everything. The '84 Oilers had incredible chemistry, but keep in mind GPG in 1984 was 3.95 (the Oilers had 5.5 vs the league's 3.75 or so) and in 2006 it was 3.08. Also, my argument was very fantasy hockey-based, and we all know that a team on paper is very different from the one on the ice.
It's funny Leetchie...I have a very similar top two lines in my fantasy keeper league team...

Ovechkin - Staal - Heatley
Tanguay - Crosby - Havlat

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06-01-2006, 09:02 PM
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Answer is simple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetchie
this may be a little off topic but...

a friend of mine and i had this debate, and i'd like to hear your choices and why.

would you rather have a top 6 set of forwards from the edmonton oilers in the 80's or a top 6 in 2007 that features ovechkin, crosby, heatley, hossa, havlat, and zetterberg on your top two lines?

also, who would your top 6 from edmonton be?
I'll take the one's that won cups!

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06-01-2006, 09:15 PM
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Q038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetchie
In terms of accomplishments, sure. Don't forget that part of that dynasty was the whole team, which included Paul Coffey, and that none of those six players play together (except for Heatley and Havlat, to a certain degree). FYI, adjusted to 1984 standards, taking 2005-2006 stats, this is what these guys would have produced:

Heatley 63
Ovechkin 65
Crosby 49
Hossa 49
Zetterberg 49
Havlat 11 (51)

286 (326)

Gretzky 87
Kurri 52
Messier 37
Anderson 54
Hughes 27
Hunter 22

279


If you factor in Paul Coffey instead of Dave Hunter, the '84 top six scorers put up 297 goals.

The '06 All-Star squad would have managed 286 goals, and that's with Havlat playing just 18 games (adjusted, his goal total would be 51 in 80 games).

You can argue both sides all you want, but remember that the '06 squad didn't play together. Crosby and Ovechkin's numbers would likely be higher if they played together.

What you CAN'T debate is that the '84 Oilers did win the Cup. They DID play together and they WERE very successful. Clearly, the '06 kids haven't accomplished 1/10th of that, but it's all a hypothetical debate anyway. Being that this was started based on a fantasy hockey team, I'd venture to say that the '06 squad would do better on paper, but no line could possibly compare to the '84 one in terms of actual play.
one thing to note though,, the 06 players listed are getting premier ice times on their respective teams.. have to figure, if they all played together the amount of time they seen the ice would be cut by at least 20%

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06-02-2006, 12:44 AM
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Leetchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q038
one thing to note though,, the 06 players listed are getting premier ice times on their respective teams.. have to figure, if they all played together the amount of time they seen the ice would be cut by at least 20%

A very valid point. But also, keep in mind that in the case of Crosby and Ovechkin especially, their opponents always had their best defensive line playing against them. I think that negates (or close to it) the fact that they got more playing time.

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06-02-2006, 01:57 AM
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While I'd say the oil's of the 80 definetly, it's pretty impossible to compare any players from different era's really. Can you compare Orr to Leetch, or Howe to Jagr or Thorton? Not really, you have to factor in things like style of play clutch and grab, vs the more european style of today. You have rule variations,& things you could get away with then but not anymore. Hell, look at the delay of game penalty from game 7 (car/buf), would'nt of even been called then. Just in watching the classic Ranger games from 94', that have been on MSG as of late, you can see those things and that was ONLY 94'. All that's not even getting into the chemistry aspect.

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