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Old
12-15-2012, 03:43 AM
  #351
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
So it would appear the NHLPA is united and the the union brothers refuse any pay cut ( unions fight this to the the death, theyd rather lose jobs than take a pay cut, see the Twinkie folks ) even though for except maybe a few in the KHL they have already lost much more than if they took a small pay cut ( Roenick and Recchi said as much ). Of course we have the NHL who finally got that national US television deal they have been salivating over for years ( and the reason Im guessing we have teams everywhere in the States ), revenue up 50 % since the last strike ( mostly thanks to Canada due to loonie and some price gauging clubs ), and they wont budge from getting to that 50 % asap, even though they got everything they wanted to fix the league the last go round.
Hmmm. Thirty owners and 690 players cant divide a $3.3 billion dollar pie by mutual agreement so they are prepared to either completely destroy the other side or be completely destroyed. Yeah, real good risk-reward analysis. Glad we didnt have idiots like this with their fingers on the Nuke buttons during the Cold war.
I despise both sides at this point but hope the Owners win the legal battle if only because if the Players succeed then the NHL as we know it is done, and so the Habs history will almost just be part of some dead league. As a Habs fan of today, history is all I got. Figure it out you Clowns.
Would be great news, a healthy league where everyone, players and owners, makes money can only be good for the sport and the league.

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12-15-2012, 10:36 AM
  #352
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Old
12-15-2012, 10:41 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Would be great news, a healthy league where everyone, players and owners, makes money can only be good for the sport and the league.
Agreed! Under the recently expired CBA all the players were making very good money but many of the owner were not. Something had to change.

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12-15-2012, 11:29 AM
  #354
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Has anyone stopped to think the precedence De-certification and the abolition of the cap in the NHL would set.
The other leagues must be looking at this with more than a passing interest
I hope that this is no more than a bargaining chip - bluff.
Interesting times for all the major sports in North America!

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12-15-2012, 11:59 AM
  #355
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I think the NHL is trying to cancel the season but prevent decertification.
I think you may be right. If nothing else, it has been an interesting process and it becomes more intriguing by the minute.

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12-15-2012, 12:14 PM
  #356
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Has anyone stopped to think the precedence De-certification and the abolition of the cap in the NHL would set.
The other leagues must be looking at this with more than a passing interest
I hope that this is no more than a bargaining chip - bluff.
Interesting times for all the major sports in North America!
I imagine there would be repercussions that no one has thought of.

The players currently under contract would likely have those contracts honored but those without contracts would be thrown into a completely new environment. Elite players and those with a ton of potential, like Subban could benefit tremendously while marginal players like Darche and Campoli could be playing for less than the current NHL minimum, if at all.

The big one could be the elimination of the draft. I could foresee teams tying up players as young as sixteen years old. The wealthy teams with big scouting staffs and big bank accounts would have a distinct advantage while the weaker teams might struggle to put a competitive product on the ice.

I don't know the structure of the existing contracts. Since they were signed under the umbrella of a CBA do all aspects of those contract remain intact or not.

Montreal, for example, might be able to tell Gomez to go home and not bother lacing up the skates. With no cap they would still have to pay him but having him on the payroll having him on the roster would be two different things. It would be costly but a team like Montreal could still afford to do it because a cap wouldn't be standing in their way. In that case, could they prevent him from signing with another team (AHL, KHL, etc) because he would be under contract to the Habs and they would still be paying him.

As you said, there would be lots of questions if the league operated without the NHLPA and a collective bargaining agreement. It would be very interesting to see where the dust settled if something like this happened. It might make both sides realize how good things could have been

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Old
12-15-2012, 12:15 PM
  #357
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Our legal systems may be flawed, but they are the better than any other 'legal' system I can think of. Try upholding your contractual rights in China.
I'm not saying that isn't the case, but this doesn't mean the system is above criticism.

And I do think there's certain things civil law systems are better at than the common law system in the US and Anglo Canada...

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12-15-2012, 12:22 PM
  #358
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I don't know the structure of the existing contracts. Since they were signed under the umbrella of a CBA do all aspects of those contract remain intact or not.

Montreal, for example, might be able to tell Gomez to go home and not bother lacing up the skates. With no cap they would still have to pay him but having him on the payroll having him on the roster would be two different things. It would be costly but a team like Montreal could still afford to do it because a cap wouldn't be standing in their way. In that case, could they prevent him from signing with another team (AHL, KHL, etc) because he would be under contract to the Habs and they would still be paying him.
Apparently this is what the NHL is threatening*. I wonder if they'd actually follow through... that Gomez option would definitely be appealing, but does Molson want to renegotiate the Pacioretty contract against the open market? What are the odds that Nashville would be able to lure Weber back into the fold? Would Columbus even be able to put together a team if their players under contract were set free?


*from the NHL's lawsuit: "Because the terms of all SPCs (standard player contracts) are prescribed, governed and regulated by the CBA – which together with the SPCs comprehensively establish the terms and conditions of employment of all NHL players – the individual SPCs are the product of the collective bargaining process between the NHL and the NHLPA, and, as a matter of federal labor law, are void upon the effective termination of that process and relationship."

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12-15-2012, 02:08 PM
  #359
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*from the NHL's lawsuit: "Because the terms of all SPCs (standard player contracts) are prescribed, governed and regulated by the CBA – which together with the SPCs comprehensively establish the terms and conditions of employment of all NHL players – the individual SPCs are the product of the collective bargaining process between the NHL and the NHLPA, and, as a matter of federal labor law, are void upon the effective termination of that process and relationship."
Thanks for the information.

Wow! I thought that contracts which were already signed would remain in place. If this was ruled on in favor of the NHL, the players and the teams would both be starting over from square one. It would be a free for all and a total mess.

I imagine that there are players and owners who are sitting on the edge of their seats right now.

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Old
12-15-2012, 02:16 PM
  #360
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Thanks for the information.

Wow! I thought that contracts which were already signed would remain in place. If this was ruled on in favor of the NHL, the players and the teams would both be starting over from square one. It would be a free for all and a total mess.

I imagine that there are players and owners who are sitting on the edge of their seats right now.
Crosby in a habs uniform....lol
Jack Johnson in habs uniform

Wouldnt be bad for habs

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Old
12-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #361
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Crosby in a habs uniform....lol
Jack Johnson in habs uniform

Wouldnt be bad for habs
I'd rather get Toews than Crosby.... Wait... Why not both?

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Old
12-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #362
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I'd rather get Toews than Crosby.... Wait... Why not both?
Lol...i hear ya,we can add MALKIN too..lol

Crosby in Montreal,would be close as you get to Rocket Richard type buzz....

Even if we could get just MALKIN

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12-15-2012, 03:13 PM
  #363
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All those players signing in Europre is really going to hurt the PA in this lawsuit.

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12-15-2012, 03:22 PM
  #364
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The PA really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Why Fehr is stalling I don't know. I'm pretty sure he wants the season to be cancelled so he can say "see I told you, the nhl planned the season to be cancelled along blah blah blah...magic date...blah blah blah."

Also, it's upsetting that they were willing to put the disclaimer option to a vote but not any actual proposals offered by the league.

The players have already lost more than they'll ever get back no matter the deal and they've distances themselves from the owners even more so than before. What Fehr's end game is, I don't know, but it's just a mess.

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12-15-2012, 03:46 PM
  #365
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The PA really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Why Fehr is stalling I don't know. I'm pretty sure he wants the season to be cancelled so he can say "see I told you, the nhl planned the season to be cancelled along blah blah blah...magic date...blah blah blah."

Also, it's upsetting that they were willing to put the disclaimer option to a vote but not any actual proposals offered by the league.

The players have already lost more than they'll ever get back no matter the deal and they've distances themselves from the owners even more so than before. What Fehr's end game is, I don't know, but it's just a mess.
Seriously, why not put the last proposal to a vote? At the worst, nothing changes.

I think NHLPA is scared to do that. Reality is, 5 or 7 or whatever year terms. FEW players get that term, few. Like a small percentage of all NHL players can even dare to dream of an 8 year contract.

As Neuvirth said, it seems to be rejected for stars, not the little guy.

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Old
12-15-2012, 03:49 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The PA really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Why Fehr is stalling I don't know. I'm pretty sure he wants the season to be cancelled so he can say "see I told you, the nhl planned the season to be cancelled along blah blah blah...magic date...blah blah blah."
IMO voting on a disclaimer is the opposite of stalling. It's forcing movement one way or the other.

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Old
12-15-2012, 03:52 PM
  #367
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Seriously, why not put the last proposal to a vote? At the worst, nothing changes.

I think NHLPA is scared to do that. Reality is, 5 or 7 or whatever year terms. FEW players get that term, few. Like a small percentage of all NHL players can even dare to dream of an 8 year contract.

As Neuvirth said, it seems to be rejected for stars, not the little guy.
If the disclaimer is not approved (I'm reading that a 2/3 vote is needed for approval), I'm certain a vote on a CBA offer is the next step. There's really nowhere else to go.

Of course, if I'm an owner, I'm pushing for a BOG vote on the union's best offer before Thursday.

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:02 PM
  #368
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If the disclaimer is not approved (I'm reading that a 2/3 vote is needed for approval), I'm certain a vote on a CBA offer is the next step. There's really nowhere else to go.

Of course, if I'm an owner, I'm pushing for a BOG vote on the union's best offer before Thursday.
Yes but it's backwards thinking. Are they advising players of that? You think NHL has more or less power if a deal would be rejected. Vote on the deal first.

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12-15-2012, 04:09 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The PA really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Why Fehr is stalling I don't know. I'm pretty sure he wants the season to be cancelled so he can say "see I told you, the nhl planned the season to be cancelled along blah blah blah...magic date...blah blah blah."

Also, it's upsetting that they were willing to put the disclaimer option to a vote but not any actual proposals offered by the league.

The players have already lost more than they'll ever get back no matter the deal and they've distances themselves from the owners even more so than before. What Fehr's end game is, I don't know, but it's just a mess.
I don't see how the owners have a leg to stand on if this dispute goes any further.

I'm assuming that Fehr wants the salary cap abolished and if he proceeds to court that will be the end result.

The players never wanted a salary cap and they sat out a season until they capitulated and agreed to one. Now it looks like the owners want the players to accept a 7% reduction in HRR every time the CBA comes up for renewal. Having a union has allowed the owners to kick the stuffing out of the players and there is no reason that the court can determine that keeping the union is in the best interest of the players.

The court won't be asked about the viability of hockey in Columbus or whether 50/50 split of money is fair but whether the players have a right to bargain without a union or if it is in their best interest to do so.

If the season is cancelled this will be a big mess and probably the end of the NHL as we know it which is why I've wanted the Canadian teams to decouple themselves from this nonsense.

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12-15-2012, 04:09 PM
  #370
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Yes but it's backwards thinking. Are they advising players of that? You think NHL has more or less power if a deal would be rejected. Vote on the deal first.
I'd actually like to see three options to vote on:

- disclaimer of interest
- accept most recent BOG offer
- keep negotiating (terrible option IMO)

...unfortunately the BOG took their latest offer off the table during the most recent negotiating session.

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:46 PM
  #371
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I don't see how the owners have a leg to stand on if this dispute goes any further.

I'm assuming that Fehr wants the salary cap abolished and if he proceeds to court that will be the end result.

The players never wanted a salary cap and they sat out a season until they capitulated and agreed to one. Now it looks like the owners want the players to accept a 7% reduction in HRR every time the CBA comes up for renewal. Having a union has allowed the owners to kick the stuffing out of the players and there is no reason that the court can determine that keeping the union is in the best interest of the players.


The court won't be asked about the viability of hockey in Columbus or whether 50/50 split of money is fair but whether the players have a right to bargain without a union or if it is in their best interest to do so.

If the season is cancelled this will be a big mess and probably the end of the NHL as we know it which is why I've wanted the Canadian teams to decouple themselves from this nonsense.
This is so backwards, it's laughable.

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:52 PM
  #372
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Agreed! Under the recently expired CBA all the players were making very good money but many of the owner were not. Something had to change.
Unfortunately, nothing is changing really, what they see as a goal (saving on costs) should be seen as one of the tools for the greater goal (MAKING money).

I mean, for example they have zero plan to help attract fans in CLB, PHX and other markets. And the current lockout is litterally costing money to the league cash cows (this isnt the best way to treat your top money makers, so to speak).

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12-15-2012, 05:44 PM
  #373
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I've been avoiding this thread because I don't really care enough to argue anymore.

Can the current road potentially lead to reform of the entire NHL structure?

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12-15-2012, 05:46 PM
  #374
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This is so backwards, it's laughable.
If this gets it's day in court, we'll see who's laughing.

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12-15-2012, 05:55 PM
  #375
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Anybody stop and think that good old Fehr may be looking to leave behind a legacy on the backs of the NHLPA?
The guy is there to negociate. Hockey means nothing to him. He has his client's back because they're his clients.
The guy wants to set a precedence for all professional sports.
Decertify now and bust the hard cap in the future, thus setting a precedence for all leagues.
IMHO, he has a greater interest in his own agenda than the collective of the NHLPA.
As far as the players doing this for the players of the future, "Are you kidding me?"
they're not earning $8.25 / hr. These are people that are making a starting salary of 1/2 a mill a year. AND YER GOING TO PROTECT THEM FROM WHAT?
The NHLPA hired Fehr to send a msg - fine I get it.
I personally don't think that they knew what they were in for.
doing this for the future players?
If the players are so concerned about other players how about the ones that are losing jobs in Europe?
How about Joe waiter down the street who's take home pay has been slashed because no one is going out for beer and wings at his place of work to watch the game.
How about the small resto owner who is looking at hard times because business is down. Guess it's more important to players to protect future millionaires than it is protect the Joe schmoes of this world.

The owners signed the contracts - pony up
the players are getting paid big bucks to play a kids game

they can all go choke on their wads of cash - both owners and players. both fehr and betteman.

BAH

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