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Old
12-15-2012, 01:29 PM
  #76
Wham City
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
That is why, you always have to be patient with prospects. Don't give up after 1 bad year, particulary when the kid has lot of potential
I can agree with this. But in Wiercioch's case at least we had past evidence he could produce. Can't really say the same of Zibanejad.

I think that's why there's some healthy skepticism about his upside, not because he had "1 bad year".

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Old
12-15-2012, 02:01 PM
  #77
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Wait. What? What did I do?
Wait, you're a girl, right?

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12-15-2012, 04:06 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
While all the points you make are great, I think you might've misunderstood what many have argued re: Zibanejad and that does not involve any "what have you done for me lately" reactions but rather a concern that he's going to be a scorer, based on what he's done in the past scoring-wise and based on what he's shown he's lacking in terms of a few qualities that aren't where we'd want them to be. The analogy to Wieircioch and his teachable assets is a bit odd since many have argued about mostly non-teachable assets and long-term upside.

Also, while I really like what Wieircioch has done this year and think he together with Benoit should be the candidates for the sixth spot once the season starts, he's by no means a sure-fire NHLer regardless what he's shown us this year.
Basically my point on Zibanejad is that there's far too much emphasis on his numbers or more specifically the 1 goal to his name thus far this season.

This seems to be the focus of the discussion around the player rather than the high number of quality chances he's creating or the fact that he's excelling in his own end being rellied on a top tier PK in 5 on 3 situations and key faceoffs. These aren't things that show up on the score sheet so people don't care yet its quite rare for a player of his age or draft pedigree to posses these qualities.

As people have said, the common knock on MZ is his 'hockey sense'. I'm just not sold on that notion given how quickly he's taken to other areas of his game (and other areas of his life to be quite honest). To me, it seems more a case of confidence rather than intelligence. Though perhaps this just raises the issue that 'hockey sense' is too much of a blanket statement to apply to what a player does in all ends of the ice ... but that's a different discussion altogether.

My projection of Mika is that I see him being a forward with elite defensive capabilities, a threat in transition and on the rush, and a punishing forechecker... That's a good player and one that can be put on any line in the NHL. A Mika Fisher let's say. He should be able to develop into this player given his current skill set with little risk. If he rounds out his game and gets more confidence in his shooting ability, goes to the net with more authority, builds his frame etc. He'll be closer to a Marian Hossa or Eric Staal.

People just need to be a little more patient and analytical. I love that there's tons of discussion but recently I just don't see much substance or thought put into it. That's partly a symtom of the lockout and now the GDT mentality is bleeding into our prospect discussion.

BONUS ANSWER: I agree with you on Benoit. The guy should defnitely be given a real shot. I liked him when he was called up and I'm a believer in rewarding your farm hands even if they are on the wrong side of 25. Defensemen take longer to develop and he could turn into a real asset. He could actually help the 2nd PP unit in a big way. I always wanted Lawrence Nycolat to be given a shot back in the day and the Carkner experiment was very successful.

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12-15-2012, 04:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
If he rounds out his game and gets more confidence in his shooting ability, goes to the net with more authority, builds his frame etc. He'll be closer to a Marian Hossa or Eric Staal.


You can't be serious.

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:32 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Basically my point on Zibanejad is that there's far too much emphasis on his numbers or more specifically the 1 goal to his name thus far this season.

This seems to be the focus of the discussion around the player rather than the high number of quality chances he's creating
Agreed on point one, bringing that up is unnecessary given the small sample. Over the years, however, he's proved to be a be a worse finisher than what some people make him. I also don't think he's been creating that high a volume of scoring chances, but that's both very subjective and tough to pin down as we all have different opinions on what a scoring chance is and which of them should have been converted.

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he's excelling in his own end being rellied on a top tier PK in 5 on 3 situations and key faceoffs. These aren't things that show up on the score sheet so people don't care yet its quite rare for a player of his age or draft pedigree to posses these qualities.
Yes, he's been good on the kill and it's a very nice sign that Richardson's trusted him in those situations. In his first year with Djurgården he ended up being trusted, perhaps not the same extent, in these situations as well and did pretty well. Fantastic, if you'd consider age and experience, of course. Don't know if it's that odd for a #6 overall two-way forward to be killing penalties in the AHL a year and a half after his draft, though.

Quote:
As people have said, the common knock on MZ is his 'hockey sense'. I'm just not sold on that notion given how quickly he's taken to other areas of his game (and other areas of his life to be quite honest). To me, it seems more a case of confidence rather than intelligence. Though perhaps this just raises the issue that 'hockey sense' is too much of a blanket statement to apply to what a player does in all ends of the ice ... but that's a different discussion altogether.
To each their own. Really no way to "solve" this. Some will think it's terrible, some below average, some above average and perhaps someone will even call it elite.

Quote:
My projection of Mika is that I see him being a forward with elite defensive capabilities, a threat in transition and on the rush, and a punishing forechecker... That's a good player and one that can be put on any line in the NHL. A Mika Fisher let's say. He should be able to develop into this player given his current skill set with little risk. If he rounds out his game and gets more confidence in his shooting ability, goes to the net with more authority, builds his frame etc. He'll be closer to a Marian Hossa or Eric Staal.
Mike Fisher is a name I threw out there pre-draft actually, but I'm starting to think that's a bit generous. I think it's a great way to describe his strengths and flaws, however. Marian Hossa-quality projection, i.e. elite or close to it in all aspects of the game, is in my mind something we may find him to be in Utopia.

I hope I'm mockingly quoted on this segment a lot in a few years.

Quote:
People just need to be a little more patient and analytical. I love that there's tons of discussion but recently I just don't see much substance or thought put into it. That's partly a symtom of the lockout and now the GDT mentality is bleeding into our prospect discussion.
I think there's been plenty of good discussion and valid points presented by "both sides" of the projection. Unfortunately, everything is going to trickle down to a "yeah, you'll see in a couple of years" kind of thing. It is what it is.

Quote:
BONUS ANSWER: I agree with you on Benoit. The guy should defnitely be given a real shot. I liked him when he was called up and I'm a believer in rewarding your farm hands even if they are on the wrong side of 25. Defensemen take longer to develop and he could turn into a real asset. He could actually help the 2nd PP unit in a big way. I always wanted Lawrence Nycolat to be given a shot back in the day and the Carkner experiment was very successful.
Really hope so. We need a second unit power play guy more than we need a tough guy who'll fight.

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:47 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Filips Tuba View Post
I can agree with this. But in Wiercioch's case at least we had past evidence he could produce. Can't really say the same of Zibanejad.

I think that's why there's some healthy skepticism about his upside, not because he had "1 bad year".
Maybe he'd score a goal or two in division 1 at 20 years old .

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12-15-2012, 04:59 PM
  #82
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Do you guys think PW has NHL potential?
He's always had the potential to be an NHLer.

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Old
12-15-2012, 06:42 PM
  #83
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ahllive.com still not working...sorry can't restream game yet. We'll try for 9 am tomorrow. Streaming To Catch a Predator

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Old
12-15-2012, 07:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Maybe he'd score a goal or two in division 1 at 20 years old .
Maybe. Course Wiercioch was putting up massive numbers at 18 in college, which is more what I was getting at.

But I see your point, he hasn't been in an environment to dominate for awhile now, and 0.5 points per game in his draft+1 year is actually in line with most first rounders coming out of the SEL.

I can't say I'm really disappointed with his AHL start either, he's one of the youngest players in the league and is getting his shots.

I just question where the points are going to come from in the end. Not writing him off, but I need to see him do it for a sustained period first.

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Old
12-15-2012, 08:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Wham City View Post
Maybe. Course Wiercioch was putting up massive numbers at 18 in college, which is more what I was getting at.

But I see your point, he hasn't been in an environment to dominate for awhile now, and 0.5 points per game in his draft+1 year is actually in line with most first rounders coming out of the SEL.

I can't say I'm really disappointed with his AHL start either, he's one of the youngest players in the league and is getting his shots.

I just question where the points are going to come from in the end. Not writing him off, but I need to see him do it for a sustained period first.
I think Weircioch's numbers at 18 were probably a bit blown up somehow. Not to say he didn't deserve to rise up in terms of prospect status, I just think that he could go back and play college now and still not be certain to match those numbers. Perhaps that's going a little far, but just making a point.

I can only imagine had Mika been there at 18 he'd be scoring quite a bit. I think a lot of the disappointment is that most true star prospects do come out and would blow the doors off the AHL at 19 to a degree. And whenever you draft in the top 10, generally speaking, the fan base hopes they have a star on their hands. We may not have a true star on our hands but I still think we could have a bottom end 1st liner. But I still think the upside is pretty high...if he fills out and starts leaning on people, he could be a really really high end power forward with skill. I think he does some things too well not to be a scorer.

The second half is that critical marker for rookies that can be pretty telling. That doesn't just go for Mika, you may see the likes of Stone, Prince, Pageau, etc take marked turns for the better after Christmas.

Some people say he's gonna be this good, or gonna be that bad. No one knows. You start talking like you have a crystal ball and you just leave yourself up to looking stupid because neither side knows. I'd say the people suggesting he won't be a top 6 player are playing the underdog though.

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12-15-2012, 08:34 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I think Weircioch's numbers at 18 were probably a bit blown up somehow. Not to say he didn't deserve to rise up in terms of prospect status, I just think that he could go back and play college now and still not be certain to match those numbers. Perhaps that's going a little far, but just making a point.

I can only imagine had Mika been there at 18 he'd be scoring quite a bit. I think a lot of the disappointment is that most true star prospects do come out and would blow the doors off the AHL at 19 to a degree. And whenever you draft in the top 10, generally speaking, the fan base hopes they have a star on their hands. We may not have a true star on our hands but I still think we could have a bottom end 1st liner. But I still think the upside is pretty high...if he fills out and starts leaning on people, he could be a really really high end power forward with skill. I think he does some things too well not to be a scorer.

The second half is that critical marker for rookies that can be pretty telling. That doesn't just go for Mika, you may see the likes of Stone, Prince, Pageau, etc take marked turns for the better after Christmas.
Good points. 16 games in the AHL is simply not enough to make any assessment in my opinion. The team wasn't scoring consistently at the beginning of the season either. I hope he can get back into the lineup soon and contribute to Binghampton. They seem to have a good atmosphere for a young kid like him to be developing in.

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12-15-2012, 09:45 PM
  #87
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9am tomorrow would be awesome for a restream if its working by then. Thanks Main!

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12-15-2012, 09:51 PM
  #88
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Good points. 16 games in the AHL is simply not enough to make any assessment in my opinion. The team wasn't scoring consistently at the beginning of the season either. I hope he can get back into the lineup soon and contribute to Binghampton. They seem to have a good atmosphere for a young kid like him to be developing in.
I agree. Im not "holier than though," but ****... Petersson might be our best forward by the end of the year.

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12-15-2012, 11:15 PM
  #89
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Petersson might be our best forward by the end of the year.
He's got a lot of competition in that department.

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12-16-2012, 06:32 AM
  #90
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ahllive.com still not working...sorry can't restream game yet. We'll try for 9 am tomorrow. Streaming To Catch a Predator

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12-16-2012, 07:43 AM
  #91
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9am tomorrow would be awesome for a restream if its working by then. Thanks Main!
ahllive.com is working - I'll host the game in 17 mins.

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12-16-2012, 07:54 AM
  #92
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The binghamton feed w/ Grady is not playing so you'll have to sit through Tom Grace and his bs

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12-16-2012, 08:52 PM
  #93
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Also, while I really like what Wieircioch has done this year and think he together with Benoit should be the candidates for the sixth spot once the season starts, he's by no means a sure-fire NHLer regardless what he's shown us this year.
Based on the way he played in the NHL two years ago, he looks like he could play in the NHL if he really improved since then... IMO, it's just a matter of will he be a journeyman PMD or quality NHLer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wham City View Post
I can agree with this. But in Wiercioch's case at least we had past evidence he could produce. Can't really say the same of Zibanejad.

I think that's why there's some healthy skepticism about his upside, not because he had "1 bad year".
I see your point but IMO Zibanejad has not been in a situation where he could produce for a while... He always played in mens league with people more experienced, more "seasonned" and more mature physically... Don't forget he's a bit of a late bloomer/late riser too... He wasn't projected to be picked high until his draft year (and more late in the season)

HIf you look at Elite Prospects, you can see that he produced in junior leagues before.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=23856

I also like what they say in the scouting report

A very skilled center/winger with good hands and a terrific eye for the game. A modern power forward with good skating. Likes to go into heavy traffic and play physically. Takes care of defensive duties well and has strong faceoff skills. Very good release. (Matias Strozyk)

Gosh, those europeans don't know what they're talking about

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12-16-2012, 09:24 PM
  #94
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Don't forget he's a bit of a late bloomer/late riser too... He wasn't projected to be picked high until his draft year (and more late in the season)
He was a late riser because people had doubts as to whether or not he would be able to contribute at higher levels. When he broke through and played a good and mature game at the SEL level, he rose quick.

Quote:
HIf you look at Elite Prospects, you can see that he produced in junior leagues before.
Last year in juniors he was 8th on his team in PPG. The year before with U18 he was 4th/5th. Very good production with the various national teams though.

Quote:
I also like what they say in the scouting report

A very skilled center/winger with good hands and a terrific eye for the game. A modern power forward with good skating. Likes to go into heavy traffic and play physically. Takes care of defensive duties well and has strong faceoff skills. Very good release. (Matias Strozyk)

Gosh, those europeans don't know what they're talking about
Evidence!

I think you can make many great points about Mika's projection as a good player but that he comes from a history of great production is not one of the stronger.

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