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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:29 PM
  #876
cws
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MOD.... I for one couldn't not begin to care less if one side or the other is considered a "winner" in this negotiation. I identify with the game of hockey, not the ideologies of one particular side. My only thought is what would make the best deal to maintain a financially stable league, period. Thinking emotionally in any way pushes peoples arguments too far away from what is actually taking place; those posts have no substance at all.


Last edited by Killion: 12-15-2012 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Correct... which is why I deleted them & edited your post in response.
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12-15-2012, 04:29 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19 View Post
gee I never realized that this is a new phenomenon and has never existed until this generation of players thanks for enlighting us of this fact.
I never suggested that it was new. I merely suggested that the players deserve to be compensated because they are the attraction and they sacrifice their health. Of course I don't worship business owners as some kind of gods though.

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12-15-2012, 04:31 PM
  #878
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5M isn't a whole lot more than the 4M a year he just received from Calgary.
You must be more wealthy than I am because I think a million dollars is a lot. At the time he left he was offered 2.5 million.

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12-15-2012, 04:39 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
I never suggested that it was new. I merely suggested that the players deserve to be compensated because they are the attraction and they sacrifice their health. Of course I don't worship business owners as some kind of gods though.
actually you did, maybe you need to re-read your own post

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12-15-2012, 04:42 PM
  #880
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Why are you excluding the MLB?
He could have just as well included it, it's actually the best example. MLB pays its players around 42%.

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12-15-2012, 04:46 PM
  #881
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Has there been any talk of some form of arbitration? Seems the only way to get those guys to agree is to force them to

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12-15-2012, 04:47 PM
  #882
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Why are you excluding the MLB?

Because I don't consider MLB to be in direct competition with the NHL. With the differences in the seasons played and the complete difference in the pacing of the games, I don't think they compete for fans. With the differences in franchise values and systems I do not think there is much competition for owners and investors.

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12-15-2012, 04:49 PM
  #883
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The love for hockey from these guys are about 0%.
Apparently the players and owners love and want hockey to be played too, but I don't see it, like you don't see it in Bettman and Fehr.

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12-15-2012, 04:52 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players don't owe the all mighty business owners the right to exploit their god given talent at whatever price they demand either. There are very few people who can do what NHL players can do and therefore they are the attraction. Would you pay to watch some 80 year old billionaire do anything? I would not. It is also worth noting that players in pro sports are no longer playing just for fun. They are basically treated like race horses. If they can be cobbled together with duct tape and chewing gum they are expected to play. Many have extreme health issues after their careers. Many die very young due to these issues.
That may appear to be true, but right now there are hundreds of players in minor leagues is the US, Canada, Europe and Russia that are the NHL stars of tomorrow. Bring them on. The product will be lower for maybe 1.5 seasons, but after that we won't even miss the current NHLPA members.


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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the owners aren't made to feel some pain with this lockout they will come back next time with another lockout. They will cry poor and it will never end. Personally I live in a hockey market. My team is a very successful business. Unfortunately they have plummeted as a result of a system designed to support unsuccessful ill advised businesses. As a fan I have been forced to accept rule changes that I don't like, parity that I see as a disease, and 2 lockouts in order to support rich morons who bought sunbelt hockey teams that will never garner more than casual interest. I am fed up.
TML plummeted because of bad management and too high of expectations too soon. Blame the sunbelt teams if you like , but you know the existence of other teams doesn't affect the product your gm and coaches put on the ice.

Hmmm, I like the "rule changes" that have been in effect for 7 years.

Obviously, there's not THAT much parity in the NHL.

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12-15-2012, 04:57 PM
  #885
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The players have given and given until they couldn't give any more. What have the owners given.....that's a big fat nothing.

Fault? Owners 100% Players: 0%

That being said, for the good of the game, the players need to accept the deal at this point. Otherwise....R.I.P NHL
LMAO. If it's for the good of the game, then how are the owners wrong?

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12-15-2012, 05:13 PM
  #886
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Hi Pepper.
So you refuse to discuss the actual topic? Good for you I guess.

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12-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
The players have given and given until they couldn't give any more
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
. What have the owners given.....that's a big fat nothing.

Fault? Owners 100% Players: 0%

That being said, for the good of the game, the players need to accept the deal at this point. Otherwise....R.I.P NHL
Your right, Fehr's offers consist of the players giving and giving and giving themselves guaranteed raises every year.

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12-15-2012, 05:17 PM
  #888
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Your first paragraph conveniently excludes that the players are being remunerated at a rate of roughly 10 to 20 times the annual pay rate (or more) of the general populous in exchange for taking those risks. I agree at least with the early part of your second paragraph. I suggest however that the owners are not positioned to give anything so I'm unsure of how they will be made by the players to feel any additional pain. They are currently locking the players out to protect the weak sisters. My own view is that we are currently being prevented from watching NHL hockey by Anaheim, Columbus, Florida, NYI, Phoenix, St. Louis, Washington, and Dallas. The NHL should agree to the players remaining requests but additionally should cut some of the above teams via contraction and guarantee the players only 600 or so jobs as a result. I bet the players would then prefer to take the current offer by comparison.
The players have a greater skill than the general populous and therefore should be compensated at a greater level. I totally agree with the rest of your post although relocation would be a better option for players as well as fans.

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12-15-2012, 05:20 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You're entitled to your opinion. But your opinion is not in line with the facts.


In every negotiation known to mankind, when you have existing terms and change those terms, the new deal is based on the old deal.

That's life.

Pro-owner spinmeisters are trying to change the conversation to make their side look less ridiculous.

But it doesn't work.

Pro-owner people are also selective in which leagues they choose, which shows more dishonestly and weakness in their stance.
With all the time you've spent defending the proposals Fehr has made (and wasted months of the season with) I find this very ironic.

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12-15-2012, 05:21 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Masao View Post
Has there been any talk of some form of arbitration? Seems the only way to get those guys to agree is to force them to

Hey, great to see you're alive.

No, they have accepted federal mediator involvement, but I don't believe either side would agree to say binding arbitration. It's not a yes/no issue as there are many facets to a CBA, and the degree that each side places emphasis on one element is really only known to them. Only they can really decide if X is worth giving up for term limit, and how long the limit can be, in concert with the other elements.

I personally don't believe you can do a CBA through arbitration. My two cents.

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12-15-2012, 05:21 PM
  #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players have a greater skill than the general populous and therefore should be compensated at a greater level. I totally agree with the rest of your post although relocation would be a better option for players as well as fans.
They have a greater skill at doing something that's relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things. EMTs have greater skill at saving lives than hockey players do. Which is a greater service to humanity? Let's try to keep some perspective here.

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12-15-2012, 05:22 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players have a greater skill than the general populous and therefore should be compensated at a greater level.
There are janitors, secretaries, burger-flippers etc. with greater skills in their profession than general population but they're still making small-time money.

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12-15-2012, 05:22 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
That may appear to be true, but right now there are hundreds of players in minor leagues is the US, Canada, Europe and Russia that are the NHL stars of tomorrow. Bring them on. The product will be lower for maybe 1.5 seasons, but after that we won't even miss the current NHLPA members.




TML plummeted because of bad management and too high of expectations too soon. Blame the sunbelt teams if you like , but you know the existence of other teams doesn't affect the product your gm and coaches put on the ice.

Hmmm, I like the "rule changes" that have been in effect for 7 years.

Obviously, there's not THAT much parity in the NHL.
Those players will want to be paid as well. I am from Detroit which is one of the best run franchises in all of sports. Unfortunately their hands are tied due to the cap. They are now just another mediocre team among many mediocre teams. This is a direct result of catering to sunbelt teams.

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12-15-2012, 05:23 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So you refuse to discuss the actual topic? Good for you I guess.

You and I can't even agree on 'actual', where I feel you twist things more than a windmill during a wind storm, and move goal posts. I'm sure you read more into my comments than I see being there, but there you have it. It's like a bad marriage. Best we move on.

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12-15-2012, 05:24 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Those players will want to be paid as well. I am from Detroit which is one of the best run franchises in all of sports. Unfortunately their hands are tied due to the cap. They are now just another mediocre team among many mediocre teams. This is a direct result of catering to sunbelt teams.
So? You hate parity because the Wings can't buy a cup now? Really? How is a team being able to buy a cup every year good for hockey?

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12-15-2012, 05:24 PM
  #896
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There are janitors, secretaries, burger-flippers etc. with greater skills in their profession than general population but they're still making small-time money.
If people were willing to watch janitors do their work, they would get paid better too.

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12-15-2012, 05:24 PM
  #897
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There are janitors, secretaries, burger-flippers etc. with greater skills in their profession than general population but they're still making small-time money.
When was the last time 15-20,000 people showed up to watch someone flip burgers while several thousand others watched on tv?

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12-15-2012, 05:25 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
In every negotiation known to mankind, when you have existing terms and change those terms, the new deal is based on the old deal.
So when NHL and NHLPA agreed to a new CBA back in 2005 with salary cap, how much of the deal was based on existing terms?

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12-15-2012, 05:28 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Those players will want to be paid as well. I am from Detroit which is one of the best run franchises in all of sports. Unfortunately their hands are tied due to the cap. They are now just another mediocre team among many mediocre teams. This is a direct result of catering to sunbelt teams.
Wow, holy contradiction Batman!

If Detroit was one of the best run franchises, how come they are only mediocre under the salary cap?

If the franchise was run so great, shouldn't they be better than mediocre?

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12-15-2012, 05:28 PM
  #900
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So when NHL and NHLPA agreed to a new CBA back in 2005 with salary cap, how much of the deal was based on existing terms?

It's not so much that they agreed on that CBA. It was a Bettman-Batterman Special, sponsored by Proskauer-Rose. Ask Don Meehan how that one unraveled for Goodenow.

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