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Old
12-15-2012, 05:09 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
Christ. No one said the future will automatically be better, but it's guaranteed to be bleak if you fail to turn older assets like Dickey into good players. Hockey is a completely different animal, because the draft isn't a crapshoot like MLB. It's not like you're trading Dickey for draft picks. d'Arnaud was drafted 5 years ago and still gets glowing reviews. How on Earth do you suggest getting better? No one wants to go to the Mets. I'm not arguing this further, you're just too off base.
d'Arnaud batted over .300 the past two seasons in AA and AAA. Nothing is guaranteed until you get to the majors obviously but this isn't like trading for a first round pick who has never played pro ball before.

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Old
12-15-2012, 05:43 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
Christ. No one said the future will automatically be better, but it's guaranteed to be bleak if you fail to turn older assets like Dickey into good players. Hockey is a completely different animal, because the draft isn't a crapshoot like MLB. Rangers should've held onto Scott Gomez instead of trading him off for younger assets, right? It's not like you're trading Dickey for draft picks. d'Arnaud was drafted 5 years ago and still gets glowing reviews. How on Earth do you suggest getting better? No one wants to go to the Mets. I'm not arguing this further, you're just too off base.
We didn't trade Gomez because he was old and we were looking to rebuild, we did it for the cap space to sign Gabby. You know that, don't be disingenuous.

No one wants to go to the Mets? That's utter ********. You just made that up to suit your argument. The Mets don't want to pay anyone. I think the Mets will need a whole organizational overhaul to truly compete. I don't think they'll be considered elite with anyone on the team right now. They're not close. So lets make the best of it until Alderson really has a chance to put his prints on the team.

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12-15-2012, 05:47 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
So how would you improve this team? It seems like trading a 38 year old pitcher at the peak of his value for a top 20 prospect in the game who is also the top catching prospect in the game plus a top 100 prospect pitcher is a pretty good deal especially when you're trading from a position of strength don't you think?
What's the goal? To win now? Not happening. To win in 2-3 years? Not happening. To win in 5-10? That'll require a total organizational philosophy change. I think Alderson can do that, but this one move wouldn't do much to that end. And I think being able to watch the absolute best knuckleball pitcher ever in the history of major league baseball rewrite the book on knuckleball pitching is worth losing that little lotto ticket. I'm going to have to watch them be bad for a while still. I'd enjoy my life a whole lot more over that time if I can at least watch a historic elite stud on the mound once every five games. Seeing him go somewhere else and do it there would hurt that much more knowing he made it with us and wanted to stay here for a very reasonable contract.

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12-15-2012, 05:51 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
I don't think they'll be considered elite with anyone on the team right now. They're not close.
So hold onto one of the few you assets you can turn into something valuable?


I know I said I was done, but that was too erroneous that I had to ask. Done for real now.

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12-15-2012, 05:54 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
So hold onto one of the few you assets you can turn into something valuable?


I know I said I was done, but that was too erroneous that I had to ask. Done for real now.
Turn into something valuable? Here's how we can turn him into something valuable, give him a new contract and have him pitch for the Mets for the whole thing. That'll produce way more value than some crapshoot prospects.

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12-15-2012, 05:57 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
What's the goal? To win now? Not happening. To win in 2-3 years? Not happening. To win in 5-10? That'll require a total organizational philosophy change. I think Alderson can do that, but this one move wouldn't do much to that end. And I think being able to watch the absolute best knuckleball pitcher ever in the history of major league baseball rewrite the book on knuckleball pitching is worth losing that little lotto ticket. I'm going to have to watch them be bad for a while still. I'd enjoy my life a whole lot more over that time if I can at least watch a historic elite stud on the mound once every five games. Seeing him go somewhere else and do it there would hurt that much more knowing he made it with us and wanted to stay here for a very reasonable contract.
You think this team isn't going to be good for 5-10 years? They have a promising young rotation that will have Niese, Harvey, and Wheeler, an infield that will be in it's prime, Johan's and Bay's money off the books, and with this deal possibly our starting catcher of the future and more starting pitching help. It really is not farfetched to say this team could be good soon. You're basically saying no one on this team is worth a damn and that we should hold on to one of our few assets that we can trade to speed up the rebuilding process just because we won't do anything for five to ten years. That's not how you operate a MLB team. This isn't Tom Seaver we're trading here. I love Dickey and he's been one of the few positives of the team over the past couple of years but when you can trade him to help the team long term in this situation, I don't see how you don't do it.

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12-15-2012, 06:00 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Turn into something valuable? Here's how we can turn him into something valuable, give him a new contract and have him pitch for the Mets for the whole thing. That'll produce way more value than some crapshoot prospects.
You seem to be confusing the draft which is a crapshoot with actual prospects. d'Arnaud is one of the game's best prospects and is major league ready. This isn't a first rounder that was just drafted. By your theory, wouldn't Strasburg, Harper, and any other prospect be a "crapshoot prospect"?

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12-15-2012, 06:15 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
You think this team isn't going to be good for 5-10 years? They have a promising young rotation that will have Niese, Harvey, and Wheeler, an infield that will be in it's prime, Johan's and Bay's money off the books, and with this deal possibly our starting catcher of the future and more starting pitching help. It really is not farfetched to say this team could be good soon. You're basically saying no one on this team is worth a damn and that we should hold on to one of our few assets that we can trade to speed up the rebuilding process just because we won't do anything for five to ten years. That's not how you operate a MLB team. This isn't Tom Seaver we're trading here. I love Dickey and he's been one of the few positives of the team over the past couple of years but when you can trade him to help the team long term in this situation, I don't see how you don't do it.
Havey and Wheeler have done nothing to start penciling them in as part of a great rotation with Niese as the third big pitcher (as much as I do like Niese, but as a solid not elite pitcher). And you ignore the lineup and bullpen, I guess because you realize both are terrible. I can see this team being mediocre in a few years. But there's no elite talent in the lineup. There's no elite talent in the pen. The only elite talent in the rotation is Dickey who you want to get rid of. This needs to be a long systematic rebuild. Sell Dickey doesn't do nearly enough. I think they should have actually looked more into trading Wright because I'm not optimistic he'll be a part of the eventual solution (if one ever even happens). He's shown the ability to succeed only as a role player, he hasn't been able to lead. Dickey on the other hand just won 20 games and the Cy Young on a bad team.

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12-15-2012, 06:26 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
The Mets aren't going to compete for a while. So don't trade the one reason to go to the ballpark in Dickey. Again, baseball prospects are such crapshoots it's not worth losing the most interesting pitcher in the game, arguably ever, for one or two of them. There's no reason to think Dickey is about to start a steep decline, he's been old for a few years now and only been getting better. He takes care of himself and he's the only person to ever throw the kind of stuff he's throwing.
logic like that is why, as adam sandler said 'the mets have sucked since 86'. chance to improve the team long term? nah. lets keep the 40 year old so every 5th day we can draw 32,000 instead of 28,000. brilliant then in 2 years when dickey is retired we'll still have holes at every position

i love RA but keeping him is just about as retarded as letting reyes walk instead of trading him

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12-15-2012, 06:29 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
You seem to be confusing the draft which is a crapshoot with actual prospects. d'Arnaud is one of the game's best prospects and is major league ready. This isn't a first rounder that was just drafted. By your theory, wouldn't Strasburg, Harper, and any other prospect be a "crapshoot prospect"?
Of course there are degrees to these things. d'Arnaud isn't on the same level as Strasburg, or Harper and you know that. d'Arnaud is more on the level of carlos gomez and fernando martinez.

Take a look at this list here: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today.../all-time.html

Guys in that tier are just garbage, sorry to burst your bubble. It's not worth giving up an elite and historic player like Dickey for another one of them. Just **** it. We've been bad for so long, we finally have at least someone to root for and enjoy who doesn't disappoint. I don't want to **** that up for a lotto ticket, sorry. You go sell your best possession for the money to buy a lotto ticket, I'd rather keep what I have and enjoy that.

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12-15-2012, 06:34 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
logic like that is why, as adam sandler said 'the mets have sucked since 86'. chance to improve the team long term? nah. lets keep the 40 year old so every 5th day we can draw 32,000 instead of 28,000. brilliant then in 2 years when dickey is retired we'll still have holes at every position

i love RA but keeping him is just about as retarded as letting reyes walk instead of trading him
You don't know your Mets history very well.

edit: and don't lie to try to make your argument sound better. We all know Dickey's real age (38, not 40), and we all know the knuckleball puts significantly less strain on the arm so to act like he'll be out of the league in two years is just stupid. When did Wakefield hang them up? 45 or something like that? In two years he's more likely to be competing for the Cy Young than out of the league.

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12-15-2012, 06:38 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Of course there are degrees to these things. d'Arnaud isn't on the same level as Strasburg, or Harper and you know that. d'Arnaud is more on the level of carlos gomez and fernando martinez.

Take a look at this list here: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today.../all-time.html

Guys in that tier are just garbage, sorry to burst your bubble. It's not worth giving up an elite and historic player like Dickey for another one of them. Just **** it. We've been bad for so long, we finally have at least someone to root for and enjoy who doesn't disappoint. I don't want to **** that up for a lotto ticket, sorry. You go sell your best possession for the money to buy a lotto ticket, I'd rather keep what I have and enjoy that.
Buster Posey and Matt Wieters are two of the catchers listed in the range that d'Arnaud will be ranked this year over the past couple of years. I don't know about you but I'd gladly take either of those guys on my team going forward.

No prospects are guaranteed but this trade puts the team in a better position going forward. Remember how bleak 2002-2004 looked? Ship got turned around pretty quick with the right moves.

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12-15-2012, 06:39 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Havey and Wheeler have done nothing to start penciling them in as part of a great rotation with Niese as the third big pitcher (as much as I do like Niese, but as a solid not elite pitcher). And you ignore the lineup and bullpen, I guess because you realize both are terrible. I can see this team being mediocre in a few years. But there's no elite talent in the lineup. There's no elite talent in the pen. The only elite talent in the rotation is Dickey who you want to get rid of. This needs to be a long systematic rebuild. Sell Dickey doesn't do nearly enough. I think they should have actually looked more into trading Wright because I'm not optimistic he'll be a part of the eventual solution (if one ever even happens). He's shown the ability to succeed only as a role player, he hasn't been able to lead. Dickey on the other hand just won 20 games and the Cy Young on a bad team.
Matt Harvey looked like everything and more he was hyped up to be this year on his call up. I fully expect him to be an anchor of this lineup. You're not giving Wright enough credit. Good teams win with players like him. He was the leader last year and is the leader for the future. They're going in the right direction and I know Dickey isn't the popular move but it's the right move. The Mets aren't as bad as they look and Alderson has them looking good for the future in my eyes.

edit: I know the bullpen and outfield isn't the greatest but the team is young and improving. Good teams win with young core that improves each year. The Giants are a perfect example of that. I know that's an extreme but it's a possibility.


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12-15-2012, 07:04 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Buster Posey and Matt Wieters are two of the catchers listed in the range that d'Arnaud will be ranked this year over the past couple of years. I don't know about you but I'd gladly take either of those guys on my team going forward.

No prospects are guaranteed but this trade puts the team in a better position going forward. Remember how bleak 2002-2004 looked? Ship got turned around pretty quick with the right moves.
Posey:
14, then 7

Wieters:
12, then 1

d'Arnaud:
81, then 36

Which one is not like the others? You can project d'Arnaud wherever you want for this coming year, it's fairly baseless, but neither posey nor weiters started as low as d'Arnaud or finished as low as d'Arnaud is right now.

Fact is d'Arnaud will be a hell of a lot riskier than either of those guys and you want to give up a historic elite pitcher for him.

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12-15-2012, 07:10 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Posey:
14, then 7

Wieters:
12, then 1

d'Arnaud:
81, then 36

Which one is not like the others? You can project d'Arnaud wherever you want for this coming year, it's fairly baseless, but neither posey nor weiters started as low as d'Arnaud or finished as low as d'Arnaud is right now.

Fact is d'Arnaud will be a hell of a lot riskier than either of those guys and you want to give up a historic elite pitcher for him.
"Historic elite pitcher" is a nice little way of describing Dickey, who no doubt had a great season.

Hes also a 40 year old on a team thats not competing any time soon. Why not see what you can grab for him?

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12-15-2012, 07:10 PM
  #741
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Matt Harvey looked like everything and more he was hyped up to be this year on his call up. I fully expect him to be an anchor of this lineup. You're not giving Wright enough credit. Good teams win with players like him. He was the leader last year and is the leader for the future. They're going in the right direction and I know Dickey isn't the popular move but it's the right move. The Mets aren't as bad as they look and Alderson has them looking good for the future in my eyes.

edit: I know the bullpen and outfield isn't the greatest but the team is young and improving. Good teams win with young core that improves each year. The Giants are a perfect example of that. I know that's an extreme but it's a possibility.
Harvey was great, but you have to temper future projections based on the guys first time around the league. It's pretty typical for a guy to come up and succeed at first when the league doesn't know anything about him. Then the book gets written and the rookie has to adjust. So we'll see with Harvey, but I think it's premature to cast him as RA "Cy Young" Dickey's replacement as ace and anchor of the staff.

Yeah, Wright is the perfect role player on a good team. That's what he did for us when were good. He's never going to lead a team, he's just not good enough. We saw him struggle massively in that position. He would be perfect for a team that needs that one more bat in the lineup. He won't lead us to anything, and that's partially why I'm pessimistic about the immediate future. I like Alderson generally though. I just think it'll take more time than people want to believe.

The bullpen stinks. So does the outfield. So does the infield for that matter, albeit less so.

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12-15-2012, 07:10 PM
  #742
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As per Amazin' Avenue:

3:15 pm: The Mets would send Dickey, Josh Thole, and another player to Toronto. Toronto would send Travis d’Arnaud, John Buck, and minor league pitchers Noah Syndergaard and Aaron Sanchez to the Mets (Puma, NY Post and McCullough, Star Ledger).

The "another player" from the Mets is rumored to be Duda.

Now, this is just a rumor. The entire deal is a rumor. But this would be a very, very nice trade for the Mets if they don't add in anything of huge value.
I understand wanting to hold onto RA. He has been a great pitcher for the Mets the last few years. However, this team is not contending in the next few seasons. If you can add a prospect like d'Arnaud you almost have to do it. With the financial situation that the ownership is in, they're not going to shell out big bucks for free agents. They're looking to plug some holes. I don't know much about Sanchez but Syndergaard could be a solid addition in a few years too.

I have no problem if the Mets decide to keep Dickey. I have no problem if they trade him. If they do decide to trade him, then you need to get a very high return for him. A package of d'Arnaud and Syndergaard is a good start. Doubt we get them to throw in Gose as well, but that could put it over the top.


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12-15-2012, 07:12 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Posey:
14, then 7

Wieters:
12, then 1

d'Arnaud:
81, then 36

Which one is not like the others? You can project d'Arnaud wherever you want for this coming year, it's fairly baseless, but neither posey nor weiters started as low as d'Arnaud or finished as low as d'Arnaud is right now.

Fact is d'Arnaud will be a hell of a lot riskier than either of those guys and you want to give up a historic elite pitcher for him.
You conveniently left out the fact that he was 17 before last year and possibly even higher this year.

Again, I like Dickey but I like rooting for a winning team a lot more. Dickey has been with the team for three years and is 38 years old. You can say whatever you want about knuckleball pitchers pitching later into their 40's and that's fair but this guy isn't in his late 20's either. We are not trading a Brian Leetch who has been with the team for his entire career. You almost seem content with having a mediocre team for the next couple of years as long as Dickey is on it so you can be entertained every 5th day.

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12-15-2012, 07:12 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
"Historic elite pitcher" is a nice little way of describing Dickey, who no doubt had a great season.

Hes also a 40 year old on a team thats not competing any time soon. Why not see what you can grab for him?
Because it's not enough to make it worthwhile. I'd rather watch history here with the 38 year old historic elite pitcher. And he's historic because he's revolutionizing the knuckleball, I don't think some of you appreciate what you're watching. The guy is doing stuff that has never been done before. And again, part of the consideration is that we can't just sim the next few seasons like you can in video games. We have to live through it. So that factors into the equation.

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12-15-2012, 07:20 PM
  #745
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Dickey isn't 27 in knuckleball years. For comparison, Wakefield made the conversion to a knuckleball guy at 27. Dickey made the switch at 32. That's a full five additional years of wear as a regular pitcher. There's also the fact that Dickey throws his knuckler unlike anyone else ever has, in the high 70s and even touching 80. To say nothing of the low-80s fastball that he throws with unusual frequency for a knuckleball pitcher. You can't just assume he'll last forever like Wakefield or others, because he's such a unique case.

Anyway, we keep Dickey and we're garbage for the next couple years. We lose him and we're garbage for the next couple years. Let's make the best of it and at least try to situate ourselves for a better future.

That rumored deal would be great. Thole is mediocre at absolute best and Duda is horrible. Maybe be can be an average DH. The prospects we'd get back range from very good to blue chip.

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12-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #746
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Dickey isn't 27 in knuckleball years. For comparison, Wakefield made the conversion to a knuckleball guy at 27. Dickey made the switch at 32. That's a full five additional years of wear as a regular pitcher. There's also the fact that Dickey throws his knuckler unlike anyone else ever has, in the high 70s and even touching 80. To say nothing of the low-80s fastball that he throws with unusual frequency for a knuckleball pitcher. You can't just assume he'll last forever like Wakefield or others, because he's such a unique case.

Anyway, we keep Dickey and we're garbage for the next couple years. We lose him and we're garbage for the next couple years. Let's make the best of it and at least try to situate ourselves for a better future.

That rumored deal would be great. Thole is mediocre at absolute best and Duda is horrible. Maybe be can be an average DH. The prospects we'd get back range from very good to blue chip.
That sums it up well so thank you for that. The next couple of years are going to be bad but this is what a rebuild is so why don't we get as many prospects as we can and hope to build something good for the future?

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12-15-2012, 08:17 PM
  #747
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Yanks fan here, and this is a good trade for both teams if D'Arnaud is going to the Mets. It's nearly impossible to find a good all around catcher in baseball anymore, and this guy sure seems to have a good chance to be one.

Good for the Jays who are clearly going for it, and getting the reigning Cy Young is pretty helpful.

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12-15-2012, 08:41 PM
  #748
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Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
Can confirm rpt earlier from colleague @NYPost_Mets current construct of Dickey trade is 4-for-3 (Dickey, Thole, minor leaguer) #Mets (cont)

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
Could change because #Bluejays will likely send some $$ to #Mets to cover some cost of Buck, so could be another prospect rather than $$

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
But right now it's Dickey/Thole/prospect (told not elite) for d/Arnaud/Syndegaard/Buck/prospect (told not elite) #Mets #Bluejays

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
#Mets hoping this nets power rotation by '15 at latest of Harvey/Wheeler/Niese/Syndegaard caught by d'Arnaud. #Bluejays

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
#Bluejays view Dickey as capable pitch top rotation in AL and whether it's Wil Myers going to #Rays for Shields or d'Arnaud/Syndegaard (con)

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
We r seeing that cost to get aces in $$ in fr agcy or on trade market is very steep. #Mets #Bluejays

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
In current construct #Mets do not get '13 OF help in trade for Dickey, going to just patch for few $ in fr agcy or trade.

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
As wrote earlier #Bluejays see 3-yr window in which control hi-end prime players, haven't been to playoffs since '93. Feel if not now, when?

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
Keep in mind deal not final Physicals must be passed, #Bluejays will only complete with a Dickey 2-yr extension. But most legwork done #Mets

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
If this goes thru, Alderson will have cashed Beltran/Dickey into 3 Top 50 prospects: Wheeler/d'Arnaud/Syndergaard. #Mets #prettygood

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
Now #Mets fans don't want to hear this, but this means punting '13 pretty much, but it's what have to do for a better tomorrow (cont)

Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1
Plus even with Dickey do #Mets look like can outdo #Nationals #Braves #Phillies 4th place likely with/without Dickey/have to upgrade future

Alright I'm done posting tweets lol


Last edited by NYRFAN218: 12-15-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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12-15-2012, 08:52 PM
  #749
Kershaw
 
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But who is the minor leaguer Mets are giving up?

If it's a small piece, huge franchise altering trade by the Mets. A step in the right direction.

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12-15-2012, 09:33 PM
  #750
surf
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Syndegaard??? Is this a high end prospect? Does he project to a number 2 or 3 starter?

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