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greater goalscorer: Howe vs Bo.Hull vs Bossy vs Br.Hull vs Bure

View Poll Results: greater goalscorer
Howe 1 1.33%
Bobby 42 56.00%
Bossy 22 29.33%
Brett 4 5.33%
Bure 6 8.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-15-2012, 07:42 PM
  #26
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah, no doubt that Bure and Brett Hull are the clear inferiors of this bunch. Not that this is a bad thing. But Bure didn't have the elite seasons to be lumped up here and Hull was a little too late of a bloomer. I am awfully surprised Howe has 0 votes. I chose Bobby anyway but Howe should have votes before Bure or Brett, that's for sure. I agree with Gretzky and Lemieux as other options and I'll throw in Richard and Esposito as well. But even so, to me it always comes down to three of them: Bobby, Gretzky and Lemieux.

Hull was just simply better at goalscoring than anything else. Gretzky has the numbers, the fact that he trumped his peers in this regard and the fact that the only reason he stopped scoring at such a high pace is because he focused on assists more. Mario was just impossible to stop from scoring a goal as well and was at least as good of a playmaker as a goalscorer. It's really tough between these three.
Considering how few goals were scored in the NHL in the 00,01 seasons this is simply not true.

Bure has 3 of the top 40 adjusted goal scoring seasons ever.

When you look at his centers in Vancouver and Florida, it's not exactly a ton of guys getting mentioned in the top 100 players of time either.

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12-15-2012, 07:43 PM
  #27
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Hardyvan again the only guy that I agree with.

Bure is getting overlooked, no surprise. Yes, a short career helps his goals per game - but let's not ignore the era he played in, and the linemates he worked with. Give him Trottier, Gillies, and Potvin in the 80's and try to type with a straight face that he doesn't eclipse his 65 goal mark. He got 59 in 74 games in Florida in the lowest scoring year in forever, playing with very little help. C'mon.

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12-15-2012, 07:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
No doubt Howe is the better player but it's also way easier to lead the league in anything in a 6 team league compared to 22 plus.

Bure just screams goal scorer, and not much else, he leads the league 3 times and is top 5 2 other times despite not having a great setup man or PP QB.

35 goals as a 19 year old in Russia along with the 9 goals in 6 game performance at the 98 Olympics adds to his case IMO.

Injuries took away what might have been but his goal scoring rate was simply incredible and even more so for the era.

Maybe I just looked at the question the OP asked a little differently but goal scoring isn't the 1st thing that comes to mind for Howe, it's longevity and the Geordie Howe Hat trick, a goal, assist and a penalty.
I'm not sure I agree with this premise. More teams means more talent on the whole, but not necessarily at the top. The top goal scorers will be around in a 6 team league or a 30 team league, unless you're referring to the lack of Euros, but I find this often thrown about and am not entirely sure if it is correct. It seems somewhat logical, but if lemieux and gretzky played in a 6 team league they would still be competing against each other and it wouldn't be any easier to win things over them because there was less teams.

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12-15-2012, 07:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
No doubt Howe is the better player but it's also way easier to lead the league in anything in a 6 team league compared to 22 plus.

Bure just screams goal scorer, and not much else, he leads the league 3 times and is top 5 2 other times despite not having a great setup man or PP QB.

35 goals as a 19 year old in Russia along with the 9 goals in 6 game performance at the 98 Olympics adds to his case IMO.

Injuries took away what might have been but his goal scoring rate was simply incredible and even more so for the era.

Maybe I just looked at the question the OP asked a little differently but goal scoring isn't the 1st thing that comes to mind for Howe, it's longevity and the Geordie Howe Hat trick, a goal, assist and a penalty.
its easier? How exactly? There is more competition as players face eachother many more times. Everyone knows every player from inside and out. It was even more dangerous to lead in anything back then than it is today.

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12-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
As far as goal scoring goes? Yes in some years. When comparing raw 80's totals, you need to look at several of Bobby's finishes and imagine them as 70-85 goal seasons.
Actually adjusting goals Brett has 3 top 25 finishes, including 1,20,25 while Bobby shows up at 43 and 50.

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12-15-2012, 08:14 PM
  #31
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Delvecchio, Mikita, Trottier, Oates..... Kozlov. One of these things just ain't belong here.

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12-15-2012, 08:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm not sure I agree with this premise. More teams means more talent on the whole, but not necessarily at the top. The top goal scorers will be around in a 6 team league or a 30 team league, unless you're referring to the lack of Euros, but I find this often thrown about and am not entirely sure if it is correct. It seems somewhat logical, but if lemieux and gretzky played in a 6 team league they would still be competing against each other and it wouldn't be any easier to win things over them because there was less teams.
Lemieux and Wayne are not the standard to be judged against and even they had seasons were they weren't top 5 in goal scoring and the number is more than you would think. and yes injuries are part of the variance of things.

There is more room for variance in a larger league all other things being equal.

Almost all of the top goal scorers have a difference, or variance of at least 10 goals from their 2nd best to 4th best seasons (I think it's even more from 1st to 3rd) in modern times (post expansion, although the same trend would probably be true in post WW2 players over a pro rated 82 game season I would think)

Also the list of other non Canadian feeder guys in the top 10 when Bure was scoring his 5 top 5 finishes are in 93

1 Selanne
2 Mogilny
5 Bure
8 Kevin Stevens
9 Brett Hull is a BC guy, BC isn't a common feeder system to the 06 NHL but also not an American either

94

1 Bure
2 Hull (depends on how you treat him)
3 Federov
8 Modano

98

1 Selanne
2 Bondra
3 Leclair
4 Bure
5 Plaffy
6 Tkachuck
9 Jagr
10 Sundin

00

1 Bure
2 Nolan (Ireland, okay that's cheating he is a good old Canadian boy)
3 Amonte
4 Kariya (another BC boy, BC had exactly a bakers dozen of players to play a single NHL game before expansion and their number have increased far beyond what would be expected with the increase in teams)
5 Jagr
7 LeClair
8 Modano
10 Hejduk

01

1 Bure
3 Jagr
4 Bondra
5 Kovalev
6 Mogilny
7 Naslund
8 Hejduk
10 Elias

02

2 Guerin
3 Sundin
5 Naslund
6 Bondra
7 Tkacuck
9 Satan
12 Alfredsson
14 Demitra
15 Modano
16 Bure 34 goals in 68 games (against only other 06 feeder type players it was still 7th best)


We can see that the expansion of the player pool and talent into the NHL from Europe and the states have a profound affect on the leagues top goal scorers.

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12-15-2012, 08:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
its easier? How exactly?
well smaller player pool to gather talent from for one, see my previous post.

Quote:
There is more competition as players face eachother many more times.
How does that make it a more competitive league though?

Quote:
Everyone knows every player from inside and out. It was even more dangerous to lead in anything back then than it is today.
Well today there is game tape and coaches specifically trying to break down and stop the top scorers from other teams.

It's also a simple math thing 6 teams to 30, all teams have a 1st line and top PP opportunities and no player is exactly consistent from year to year, just look at the turnover and rate of change in top 10 scoring between any 2 consecutive seasons.

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12-15-2012, 08:35 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
well smaller player pool to gather talent from for one, see my previous post.



How does that make it a more competitive league though?



Well today there is game tape and coaches specifically trying to break down and stop the top scorers from other teams.

It's also a simple math thing 6 teams to 30, all teams have a 1st line and top PP opportunities and no player is exactly consistent from year to year, just look at the turnover and rate of change in top 10 scoring between any 2 consecutive seasons.
Its pretty irrelevant. The talent pool is bigger but so is the league. Besides, it still doesnt really effect the top-end talent like Howe, Orr, Beliveau and so on. They are still competing versus eachother no matter how much you spin it around.

We are discussing the best not who had a hot season in '94 or '01.

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12-15-2012, 09:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Its pretty irrelevant. The talent pool is bigger but so is the league. Besides, it still doesnt really effect the top-end talent like Howe, Orr, Beliveau and so on. They are still competing versus eachother no matter how much you spin it around.

We are discussing the best not who had a hot season in '94 or '01.
Oh it's relevant, it just doesn't support your case.

Let's take the case for Howe in goalscoring in 51,52,53 he leads the NHL in scoring but I count close to 17 or 18 guys taking up the other 27 top 10 spots (variance).

Then in 54, at the old age of 25 he dips 16 goals from 49 to 33. He only falls to 2nd place from 1st.

In a larger league any drop of 16 goals from 1st is almost an automatic drop out of the top 5, the years it doesn't happen are exceptions.

In 55 he misses 6 games and scores only 29 goals good for 5th in 55 but it would have placed him in a tie for 2nd in 54.

You get the idea though, there is variance in each and every year and in every players career, throw in more variables and there is more chance for variance, ie add more teams and top players for non traditional feeder systems and you have more, or at least the likelihood of it, variance.

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12-15-2012, 10:00 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Oh it's relevant, it just doesn't support your case.

Let's take the case for Howe in goalscoring in 51,52,53 he leads the NHL in scoring but I count close to 17 or 18 guys taking up the other 27 top 10 spots (variance).

Then in 54, at the old age of 25 he dips 16 goals from 49 to 33. He only falls to 2nd place from 1st.

In a larger league any drop of 16 goals from 1st is almost an automatic drop out of the top 5, the years it doesn't happen are exceptions.

In 55 he misses 6 games and scores only 29 goals good for 5th in 55 but it would have placed him in a tie for 2nd in 54.

You get the idea though, there is variance in each and every year and in every players career, throw in more variables and there is more chance for variance, ie add more teams and top players for non traditional feeder systems and you have more, or at least the likelihood of it, variance.
leading the league is leading the league, regardless of league size. But if you guys were talking top 10's, then ya... there were only 18 top line forwards in the O6..... a top end talent should make the top 10 every single healthy year.

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12-16-2012, 01:51 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Oh it's relevant, it just doesn't support your case.

Let's take the case for Howe in goalscoring in 51,52,53 he leads the NHL in scoring but I count close to 17 or 18 guys taking up the other 27 top 10 spots (variance).

Then in 54, at the old age of 25 he dips 16 goals from 49 to 33. He only falls to 2nd place from 1st.

In a larger league any drop of 16 goals from 1st is almost an automatic drop out of the top 5, the years it doesn't happen are exceptions.

In 55 he misses 6 games and scores only 29 goals good for 5th in 55 but it would have placed him in a tie for 2nd in 54.

You get the idea though, there is variance in each and every year and in every players career, throw in more variables and there is more chance for variance, ie add more teams and top players for non traditional feeder systems and you have more, or at least the likelihood of it, variance.
Yet Bobby Hull led the league in scoring even after the expansion to 12 teams and he led the WHA in scoring even if there were an influx of players fron non-traditional feeder markets. We arent talking about top-10 in scoring or even top-5. We are talking about Bobby Hull, top-3 in scoring 10 times leading it 7 times and had top performances against soviets best. So no, it's not really relevant in this case. If we were talking about Andy Bathgate you might have had a point.

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12-16-2012, 02:44 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yet Bobby Hull led the league in scoring even after the expansion to 12 teams and he led the WHA in scoring even if there were an influx of players fron non-traditional feeder markets. We arent talking about top-10 in scoring or even top-5. We are talking about Bobby Hull, top-3 in scoring 10 times leading it 7 times and had top performances against soviets best. So no, it's not really relevant in this case. If we were talking about Andy Bathgate you might have had a point.
Andy Bathgate is one of the most underrated players of ever. He legitimately competed for the RW All-Star nods with Howe and Richard (and later Geoffrion); 2nd team in 58 behind Howe, 1st team and Hart in 59, 1st team in 62, 2nd team in 63. This is with his prime behind two guys who are in the conversation as top-five players ever.

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12-16-2012, 03:40 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Actually adjusting goals Brett has 3 top 25 finishes, including 1,20,25 while Bobby shows up at 43 and 50.
And the gorilla math being used to adjust those seasons needs work. Bobby's goal scoring years were better and more impressive than Brett's, except for Brett's 86 goal year, which is around equal to Bobby's best. Bobby just had more of those years

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12-16-2012, 03:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Considering how few goals were scored in the NHL in the 00,01 seasons this is simply not true.

Bure has 3 of the top 40 adjusted goal scoring seasons ever.

When you look at his centers in Vancouver and Florida, it's not exactly a ton of guys getting mentioned in the top 100 players of time either.
In florida Pavel Bure did figure 8's between his blueline and center ice waiting for the puck to be coughed up so he could cherry pick, take off, contributing next to nothing defensively or anywhere else on the ice.

Amazing stickhandler? Yes. One of the best breakaway and one on one guys ever? Yes. But few people were allowed to play that "myself before the team" style. In fact, on most teams it would get you benched to cherry pick that bad.

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12-16-2012, 06:12 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Andy Bathgate is one of the most underrated players of ever. He legitimately competed for the RW All-Star nods with Howe and Richard (and later Geoffrion); 2nd team in 58 behind Howe, 1st team and Hart in 59, 1st team in 62, 2nd team in 63. This is with his prime behind two guys who are in the conversation as top-five players ever.
What I meant was that he is one of those players who is further down in the pecking order and someone who might fall because of influx of euros and so on. Not that he'd fall much. I loved him as a player and you are right that he is underrated.

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12-16-2012, 07:22 AM
  #42
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One things for sure and that's that the talent were more contracted during the O6 and therefore it was harder to score back then.
That being said, i voted on Bure first becouse he was such a stellar solitary fishing there in his offensive zone. Playing under Bossys circumstances he would have slaughtered that guys goal totals; Brett only got into this vote at all becouse of Adam Oates; Bobby was healthy all along and had Mikita, while Howe had Lindsay and Delvecchio. It was true the thing i once read on the back of a hockeycard that Bure could have scored 70 with a good playmaker by his side, in the dead puck era.

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12-16-2012, 08:58 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
One things for sure and that's that the talent were more contracted during the O6 and therefore it was harder to score back then.
That being said, i voted on Bure first becouse he was such a stellar solitary fishing there in his offensive zone. Playing under Bossys circumstances he would have slaughtered that guys goal totals; Brett only got into this vote at all becouse of Adam Oates; Bobby was healthy all along and had Mikita, while Howe had Lindsay and Delvecchio. It was true the thing i once read on the back of a hockeycard that Bure could have scored 70 with a good playmaker by his side, in the dead puck era.
Actually Bobby rarely played on a line with Mikita and didn't need a playmaker. He was able to score no matter who was on his line. He also had his share of injuries but tended to play through them.

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12-16-2012, 09:22 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
In florida Pavel Bure did figure 8's between his blueline and center ice waiting for the puck to be coughed up so he could cherry pick, take off, contributing next to nothing defensively or anywhere else on the ice.

Amazing stickhandler? Yes. One of the best breakaway and one on one guys ever? Yes. But few people were allowed to play that "myself before the team" style. In fact, on most teams it would get you benched to cherry pick that bad.
Modano is a good example of that.

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12-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
In florida Pavel Bure did figure 8's between his blueline and center ice waiting for the puck to be coughed up so he could cherry pick, take off, contributing next to nothing defensively or anywhere else on the ice.
Amazing stickhandler? Yes. One of the best breakaway and one on one guys ever? Yes. But few people were allowed to play that "myself before the team" style. In fact, on most teams it would get you benched to cherry pick that bad.
The same can be said for the early careers of Gretzky & Lemieux.

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12-16-2012, 10:04 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Hardyvan again the only guy that I agree with.

Bure is getting overlooked, no surprise. Yes, a short career helps his goals per game - but let's not ignore the era he played in, and the linemates he worked with. Give him Trottier, Gillies, and Potvin in the 80's and try to type with a straight face that he doesn't eclipse his 65 goal mark. He got 59 in 74 games in Florida in the lowest scoring year in forever, playing with very little help. C'mon.
If this means he gets Al Arbour as a coach also, I have much doubt he about him scoring over 65. Bure would have had to compromise some of his offensive game for defensive responsibilty or else he wouldn't have played enough to get 65 goals.

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12-16-2012, 12:02 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yet Bobby Hull led the league in scoring even after the expansion to 12 teams and he led the WHA in scoring even if there were an influx of players fron non-traditional feeder markets. We arent talking about top-10 in scoring or even top-5. We are talking about Bobby Hull, top-3 in scoring 10 times leading it 7 times and had top performances against soviets best. So no, it's not really relevant in this case. If we were talking about Andy Bathgate you might have had a point.
I voted for Bobby Hull and have been talking about Howe not Hull in my last couple of posts.

Not sure the influx of talent into the WHA along with the expansion of the NHL is really helping your case with Hull though, not that it needs help, his leading the league in goal scoring 7 times and rate of scoring in injured years is simply incredible, regardless or era.

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12-16-2012, 12:04 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
In florida Pavel Bure did figure 8's between his blueline and center ice waiting for the puck to be coughed up so he could cherry pick, take off, contributing next to nothing defensively or anywhere else on the ice.

Amazing stickhandler? Yes. One of the best breakaway and one on one guys ever? Yes. But few people were allowed to play that "myself before the team" style. In fact, on most teams it would get you benched to cherry pick that bad.
But we are talking about only goal scoring here not team play or 2 way play and it's not like other top notch goal scorers were known for their defensive play either is it?

And like Dennis Bonvie mentions Wayne and Mario also cherry picked earlier in their careers, like almost every player before the clutch and grab era would be allowed to do to a lesser or greater degree.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 12-16-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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12-16-2012, 01:50 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
In florida Pavel Bure did figure 8's between his blueline and center ice waiting for the puck to be coughed up so he could cherry pick, take off, contributing next to nothing defensively or anywhere else on the ice.

Amazing stickhandler? Yes. One of the best breakaway and one on one guys ever? Yes. But few people were allowed to play that "myself before the team" style. In fact, on most teams it would get you benched to cherry pick that bad.
Not to mention the fact that Bure averaged about 27 minutes of ice time in Florida, while most other top scorers averaged closer to 20 minutes. I'm sure the fact that Bure wasn't required to backcheck helped him play so much.

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12-16-2012, 05:15 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
One things for sure and that's that the talent were more contracted during the O6 and therefore it was harder to score back then.
That being said, i voted on Bure first becouse he was such a stellar solitary fishing there in his offensive zone. Playing under Bossys circumstances he would have slaughtered that guys goal totals; Brett only got into this vote at all becouse of Adam Oates; Bobby was healthy all along and had Mikita, while Howe had Lindsay and Delvecchio. It was true the thing i once read on the back of a hockeycard that Bure could have scored 70 with a good playmaker by his side, in the dead puck era.
Actually, Bure's strength was carrying the puck top flight and not using teammates. A playmaker carrying the puck for him would probably have hurt his numbers. Now, if you want to make a case that a true breakout pass defenseman who could make that behind the net to center ice pass would have helped Bure's numbers, i would concur.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The same can be said for the early careers of Gretzky & Lemieux.
Those two were a much different case. ill just post a quote someone made that I completely agree with, which separated them from mere superstars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I consider Orr the greatest player I'll ever see, but that comment is somewhat short-sighted, IMO.

Mario, like Gretzky, was not simply another "1 way player".

When either of those two were on the ice, the entire shift for both teams to a large extent revolved around their presence, period. Regardless of whether or not they did anything on the shift. In that regard, they controlled the game. and their dominance over their opponents transcended any comparison. That is, "two-way" and other attributes typically (and correctly) associated with "normal" hockey players didn't matter.

And frankly, among all of the players I've seen since the 70s, they are the only two for whom such consideration didn't apply, for they were so above the rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
But we are talking about only goal scoring here not team play or 2 way play and it's not like other top notch goal scorers were known for their defensive play either is it?

And like Dennis Bonvie mentions Wayne and Mario also cherry picked earlier in their careers, like almost every player before the clutch and grab era would be allowed to do to a lesser or greater degree.
Errr, Bobby Hull especially Gordie Howe were both very good defensively. Furthermore Mike Bossy was good defensively.

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