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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-15-2012, 08:13 AM
  #901
OthmarAmmann
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There was once an attorney who posted on these boards who held that the sale and the execution of the lease could occur simultaneously.

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12-15-2012, 10:32 AM
  #902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
... They had two completely different deals fall apart for reasons nobody here really knows (but are always willing to speculate about it) and they are now on a third.
Is it really speculation for Hulsizer? They couldn't sell the bonds to buy the parking lots they own so he walked away. He thewn failed to buy the Blues which confirmed the other speculation: that he didn't have the cash to buy, let alone operate, an NHL team.

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12-15-2012, 10:33 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
There was once an attorney who posted on these boards who held that the sale and the execution of the lease could occur simultaneously.
I guess it depends on what is meant by "simultaneously". I'm sure they could be the team in the morning and sign the lease in the afternoon. In fact, Jamison should have been ready to go when the previous lease was approved. Instead, his "weeks not months" turned into "months not weeks" to secure investors, and in the meantime Glendale's budget woes became public and the whole situation imploded. He cost himself and his investors some money by failing to purchase the team in May/June.

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Old
12-15-2012, 10:40 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Is it really speculation for Hulsizer? They couldn't sell the bonds to buy the parking lots they own so he walked away. He thewn failed to buy the Blues which confirmed the other speculation: that he didn't have the cash to buy, let alone operate, an NHL team.
Yup. I think we're pretty clear on why the Hulsizer and IEH deals fell apart. In fact, many on this Board had predicted that they would fall apart and why, beforehand. As many suspected, IEH didn't have the financial wherewithal, which was confirmed publicly by the COG after first giving them months of exclusive negotiating rights. The parking revenue bond deal looked like a moonshot to many, and turned out to be just that. In fact, if we go back to Reinsdorf, it was abundantly clear that his proposal for about $165 million in subsidies from a Westgate-backed CFD was an absolute howler, so it shouldn't have been a surprise when that deal cratered.

I don't see much mystery in the previous failed attempts. Jamison's deal is a bit more mysterious because the guy won't even reveal who the investors are. Skepticism is based largely on the fact that he had several months to put together an investor group leading up to the May lease agreement, and couldn't pull the trigger. Perhaps he has put together a group now, even though the lease terms are slightly less favorable to him. We shall soon see.

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12-15-2012, 10:58 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Yup. I think we're pretty clear on why the Hulsizer and IEH deals fell apart. In fact, many on this Board had predicted that they would fall apart and why, beforehand. As many suspected, IEH didn't have the financial wherewithal, which was confirmed publicly by the COG after first giving them months of exclusive negotiating rights. The parking revenue bond deal looked like a moonshot to many, and turned out to be just that. In fact, if we go back to Reinsdorf, it was abundantly clear that his proposal for about $165 million in subsidies from a Westgate-backed CFD was an absolute howler, so it shouldn't have been a surprise when that deal cratered.

I don't see much mystery in the previous failed attempts. Jamison's deal is a bit more mysterious because the guy won't even reveal who the investors are. Skepticism is based largely on the fact that he had several months to put together an investor group leading up to the May lease agreement, and couldn't pull the trigger. Perhaps he has put together a group now, even though the lease terms are slightly less favorable to him. We shall soon see.
At least in the case of the Jamison deal it's fairly straight forward what's going on... The CoG is giving money to Jamison. I know they are calling it an AMF, but everyone knows that's just a cover story to try and keep the GWI at bay. It's a simple payment schedule.

No bonds, no CFD, no selling parking. In fact if the CoG had just come out 3 years ago and offered the potential buyer at the time the same deal they are giving Jamison, this could have been over 3 years ago. The last 3 years have been nothing but trickery on behalf of the CoG to avoid the "gift clause", yet that's exactly where we find ourselves. Money to owner.. will the GWI care? Could have saved everyone a lot of time if the CoG just had done this from the start. Put the money on the table and see if the dog bites.

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12-15-2012, 11:19 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
At least in the case of the Jamison deal it's fairly straight forward what's going on... The CoG is giving money to Jamison. I know they are calling it an AMF, but everyone knows that's just a cover story to try and keep the GWI at bay. It's a simple payment schedule.

No bonds, no CFD, no selling parking. In fact if the CoG had just come out 3 years ago and offered the potential buyer at the time the same deal they are giving Jamison, this could have been over 3 years ago. The last 3 years have been nothing but trickery on behalf of the CoG to avoid the "gift clause", yet that's exactly where we find ourselves. Money to owner.. will the GWI care? Could have saved everyone a lot of time if the CoG just had done this from the start. Put the money on the table and see if the dog bites.
I agree, it's a lot more straightforward. It is also less lucrative than other proposed lease agreements.

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12-15-2012, 11:31 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I guess it depends on what is meant by "simultaneously". I'm sure they could be the team in the morning and sign the lease in the afternoon. In fact, Jamison should have been ready to go when the previous lease was approved. Instead, his "weeks not months" turned into "months not weeks" to secure investors, and in the meantime Glendale's budget woes became public and the whole situation imploded. He cost himself and his investors some money by failing to purchase the team in May/June.
He's no longer here to clarify, but I believe he meant in the same room at the same time.

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I agree, it's a lot more straightforward. It is also less lucrative than other proposed lease agreements.
Curiously they're comparable in present value. I took the Hulsizer bond scheme to mean that either he didn't have the $ to buy the team or didn't feel comfortable with COGs credit to enter into a long term agreement with them. I imagine it was a little of both.

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12-15-2012, 05:40 PM
  #908
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Something for Glendale taxpayers to look forward to...

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40595178/

From the article:

Then there’s Paul Brown Stadium, both the newish home of the Cincinnati Bengals and quite possibly the single greatest boondoggle in the history of public-stadium financing. Completed in 2000, the building was supposed to cost $280 million. The Bengals estimate that it cost $350 million. Hamilton County, which assumed more than $1 billion in debt to pay for the stadium, puts the price at $454 million. Long, on the other hand, estimated in the Wall Street Journal that the actual cost to the public was roughly $555 million, once parking garages and other expenses were factored in. Moreover, local residents are on the hook for Paul Brown Stadium’s security costs, as well as most current and future operating and capital improvement expenses -- including, and this is not a misprint, a potential future “holographic replay machine.” Perhaps unsurprisingly, a voter-approved stadium-subsidizing Hamilton County half-percent sales tax increase remains in effect, while once-promised additional public school funding and a property tax cut do not. Oh, and the Wall Street Journal also reported that Hamilton County’s annual stadium debt payment two years ago was $34.6 million -- nearly 17 percent of the county’s total budget, and a big reason local lawmakers had to slash spending on schools, police and a program that helped troubled adolescents.

So Glendale residents, enjoy the hockey team. I'm sure cutbacks in education, police and other social programs will make this deal more than worthwhile what with all the high-paying jobs it will create.

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12-15-2012, 06:54 PM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Is it really speculation for Hulsizer? They couldn't sell the bonds to buy the parking lots they own so he walked away. He thewn failed to buy the Blues which confirmed the other speculation: that he didn't have the cash to buy, let alone operate, an NHL team.
Glendale could have still tried to sell the bonds. GWI's involvement (or interference depending on who you talk to ) drove the costs of servicing them up. And there was still the threat of a lawsuit.

The Blues purchase was a completely different transaction with different parameters. We just got done discussing on the last three pages or so about how you can't compare any two scenarios.

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12-15-2012, 07:07 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Yup. I think we're pretty clear on why the Hulsizer and IEH deals fell apart. In fact, many on this Board had predicted that they would fall apart and why, beforehand. As many suspected, IEH didn't have the financial wherewithal, which was confirmed publicly by the COG after first giving them months of exclusive negotiating rights. The parking revenue bond deal looked like a moonshot to many, and turned out to be just that. In fact, if we go back to Reinsdorf, it was abundantly clear that his proposal for about $165 million in subsidies from a Westgate-backed CFD was an absolute howler, so it shouldn't have been a surprise when that deal cratered.

I don't see much mystery in the previous failed attempts. Jamison's deal is a bit more mysterious because the guy won't even reveal who the investors are. Skepticism is based largely on the fact that he had several months to put together an investor group leading up to the May lease agreement, and couldn't pull the trigger. Perhaps he has put together a group now, even though the lease terms are slightly less favorable to him. We shall soon see.
C'mon Whileee.... it's all been speculation on this board. Everyone predicted for the last four years the Coyotes were moving the following year and it hasn't happened yet has it??? (Can't wait to see the comments on that )

Nobody to this date has shown how much Hulsizer was actually worth, or if he had other investors (Hulsizer gave the impression he was on his own, but it was the IEH guys who brought him into kicking tires on NHL franchises.) Likewise with Jamison.

Nobody has had proof of what actually triggered the previous deals falling apart. We have bits and pieces of information surrounding each one. Everyone here has been filling in blanks based on their own presumptions, personal agendas and what not.....

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12-15-2012, 07:16 PM
  #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Curiously they're comparable in present value. I took the Hulsizer bond scheme to mean that either he didn't have the $ to buy the team or didn't feel comfortable with COGs credit to enter into a long term agreement with them. I imagine it was a little of both.
My speculation (snicker) was Hulsizer had the money to make the actual purchase. But it would've left him with no remaining capital to operate and work with in getting the franchise rolling the right direction (marketing, increased player payroll, etc.)

For similar reasons.... Jamison's original AMF in June was front loaded. The new one shaves $30 million off the front 5 years which has me wondering if that changes his initial plans if he gets this all done.

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12-15-2012, 07:20 PM
  #912
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C'mon Whileee.... it's all been speculation on this board. Everyone predicted for the last four years the Coyotes were moving the following year and it hasn't happened yet has it??? (Can't wait to see the comments on that )

Nobody to this date has shown how much Hulsizer was actually worth, or if he had other investors (Hulsizer gave the impression he was on his own, but it was the IEH guys who brought him into kicking tires on NHL franchises.) Likewise with Jamison.

Nobody has had proof of what actually triggered the previous deals falling apart. We have bits and pieces of information surrounding each one. Everyone here has been filling in blanks based on their own presumptions, personal agendas and what not.....
C'mon, TL.

The City of Glendale said that IEH didn't have the financial wherewithal. I doubt that they were influenced by posters on this board.

The Hulsizer bond issue didn't sell, and that was the center of his lease agreement. No mystery there.

Perhaps we're speculating with Reinsdorf, but in retrospect the idea of the massive revenues from a Westgate-based CFD is pretty ludicrous.

I think that Jamison is the most mysterious of the group, because he has been rather slow in putting the deal together, and he refuses to publicly identify his investors. Personally, I have no firm idea as to whether he has the wherewithal to close the deal, and I doubt that you do either.

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12-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #913
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My speculation (snicker) was Hulsizer had the money to make the actual purchase. But it would've left him with no remaining capital to operate and work with in getting the franchise rolling the right direction (marketing, increased player payroll, etc.)... For similar reasons.... Jamison's original AMF in June was front loaded. The new one shaves $30 million off the front 5 years which has me wondering if that changes his initial plans if he gets this all done.
Based on what happened up in St.Louis a year ago next week, your speculation about Hulsizer could well be correct. He seemed to have a ceiling or a "Cap". With the Blues, Scottrade etc it became apparent that he expected the operations to pay for themselves right out of the chute, what capital & credit facilities he did have available maxed in paying for the club & the rest of the assets. Jamison however, another animal altogether, as we really have absolutely no idea if he's for real, what his plans are, who's backing his purchase etc. Beyond a Cone of Silence really, with whatever air was inside the vacuum evacuated with the Lockout, the changes at City Hall. Beyond complicated, impossible almost to read, speculate & perhaps foretell much of anything anymore.

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12-15-2012, 10:23 PM
  #914
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Glendale could have still tried to sell the bonds. GWI's involvement (or interference depending on who you talk to ) drove the costs of servicing them up. And there was still the threat of a lawsuit.
Curiously none of those issues existed in January when a bond issue by Glendale half as lage failed equally as miserably.

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12-16-2012, 01:54 PM
  #915
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Glendale could have still tried to sell the bonds. GWI's involvement (or interference depending on who you talk to ) drove the costs of servicing them up. And there was still the threat of a lawsuit.

The Blues purchase was a completely different transaction with different parameters. We just got done discussing on the last three pages or so about how you can't compare any two scenarios.
My goodness TL, blame GWI for the complete idiocy and incompetency of the COG Council!!! GWI, merely sent a letter regarding their belief that the bonds were in their minds a municipal scam. Fact is, the market agreed with them and therefore the bond deal never went forward. Kudos to GWI for doing the right thing!

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12-16-2012, 06:14 PM
  #916
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Wow 1 comment today the deal is dead! Lol

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12-16-2012, 06:18 PM
  #917
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Wow 1 comment today the deal is dead! Lol
A mere lull in the festivities,
Christmas & New Years Break.

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12-16-2012, 06:32 PM
  #918
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My goodness TL, blame GWI for the complete idiocy and incompetency of the COG Council!!! GWI, merely sent a letter regarding their belief that the bonds were in their minds a municipal scam. Fact is, the market agreed with them and therefore the bond deal never went forward. Kudos to GWI for doing the right thing!
So..... I'm blaming GWI now???

It's amusing to see so many people telling me who I'm blaming around here. All because I state a couple of facts.

And here you go again declaring something as a fact when it's really just your personal opinion.

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12-16-2012, 06:36 PM
  #919
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Curiously none of those issues existed in January when a bond issue by Glendale half as lage failed equally as miserably.
AIUI.... after reading posts from people who are familiar with how bond markets work..... market conditions change often for a variety of reasons.

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12-16-2012, 06:41 PM
  #920
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A break well deserved Killion. This place is number one for updates. Thanks and Merry Christmas!

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A mere lull in the festivities,
Christmas & New Years Break.


Last edited by Killion: 12-16-2012 at 07:02 PM. Reason: technical difficulties. Welcome.
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12-16-2012, 07:43 PM
  #921
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I don't celebrate Christmas, I've just been traveling for a job interview so thats why I have been quite.

Anyone planning to watch the council workshop on Tuesday?

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12-16-2012, 08:07 PM
  #922
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I don't celebrate Christmas, I've just been traveling for a job interview so thats why I have been quite.... Anyone planning to watch the council workshop on Tuesday?
Good luck with that aqib, and Happy Festivus!..... as for the latter, Im guessing
its the last for this Council & Mayor yes? Have the Minutes been posted yet?

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12-16-2012, 09:02 PM
  #923
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Good luck with that aqib, and Happy Festivus!..... as for the latter, Im guessing
its the last for this Council & Mayor yes? Have the Minutes been posted yet?
They have one more official meeting on 1/8. The new council gets sworn in on 1/15. I guess thats why Scruggs was proposing a 1/15 expiration date on the lease at the last meeting. 1/15 is listed as a "Council Installation Ceremony" so we don't know if thats a meeting or just a ceremony. They have a formal meeting on 1/22 and then nothing on 1/29 since thats the 5th Tuesday of the month.

The agenda for the workshop hasn't been posted yet

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12-16-2012, 11:02 PM
  #924
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Should be fairly quiet around here for a while unless the lockout lets go or GJ buys the team.

So, probably time to relax and reflect...

So whatever Organized Superstition you follow or Imaginary Friend you worship this time of year...Merry Christmakwanzika to all!!!

I DVR'd the last year's playoffs, I may spend the week off watching those. Major withdrawals

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12-16-2012, 11:10 PM
  #925
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http://www.glendaleaz.com/clerk/agen...das/121812.pdf



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