Basically, the game is over. Either the season is or this bull **** is. Time to make a deal.
Seems to me like this is what both sides have wanted all along. A bunch of chest thumping to make themselves look/feel better about things and then the negotiating can end. Either for the time being or for good.
Either way we are finally where Fehr wanted us to be and that is at a drop dead place.
Lets see who ends up dead on this one.
Last edited by Live in the Now: 12-16-2012 at 08:27 PM.
Reason: little too much
Nick Cotsonika @cotsonika
NHL has given PA two options -- take it or leave it. If PA chooses to leave it, that means disclaimer. That makes it real, not a tactic.
I was asked to post where I think we are in the negotiating process.
I think we are closer to seeing an end to the lockout today then we were three days ago and that everything that is happening is bringing these negotiations closer together even though they seem further apart.
Playing exactly as I said it would last week. Let's see who really wants to play hockey.
Edit: NHL threatens to void all contracts if NHLPA files disclaimer of interest or decertifies.
See this is an interesting bit of information because if the NHL voids all contracts between teams and players then they risk losing the entire league or having to attempt to re-instate them in order to get things going again and that would give the players a negotiating advantage imo.
Of course the league could make rules that would force returning players to return to their previous agreements but then this would only cause dissension and likely a complete change to the face of the game. We could see teams relocate, a new draft etc I mean if the contracts are voided by the NHL it coudl really come back and bite them in the butt.
CP: Players to vote electronically starting Sunday (12/16), ending Thursday (12/20). 2/3rd approval required. If approved, union has until 1/2/13 to file disclaimer of interest.
The thing is this, the league is flexing its muscles in a crazy manner and so are the players. But both sides are only doing so because they want an amicable ending to the negotiating process and believe that the other side is acting in an unfair manner.
This is lagger heads at its finest. Will the courts be forced to decide what needs to happen and make these two entities sit down and work things out? Will the two sides step away from the brink and get things done? Will we see an end not only to this season but also to the NHL as we know it?
I don't know, to me everyone is just chest thumping and that the deal that was close to being completed will be close to what everyone agrees to in the end anyways. The only question that I am concerned with is when. Will we see this worked out in time for a season to happen starting in 1/13 or not. Other than that I can't see anyone willing to destroy the NHL to save it. Too much pie left to eat.
Wait a minute..
My reading gave me the following understanding.
All SPC'S will be voided as a consequence of no NHLPA, not a threat but a result of consequence when NHLPA no longer exists.
63. Accordingly, in the event the NHLPA's decertification or disclaimer were found
not to be invalid, and the collective bargaining relationship between the parties were not
otherwise to continue, the SPCs – which were the product of that collective bargaining
relationship and are dependent on the continuation of that relationship – would be void and
unenforceable as a matter of law
No court, lockout unlegal ++ and after NHLPA decertifies or .. can touch this thing due to a lot of differnt acts and laws. The court can only take actions to see if the claims NHL has filed is accurate or not, meaning the court can tell the NHLPA that what NHL has been saying ( Written in the legal document) is accurate and true or.... not.
If NHLPA can digg up some own legal acts of their own to protect their own ass and counter NHL then the pingpong match continues, but I really doubt that they can.
by the way one of the NHL claims is that the NHLPA is not allowed by law (not sure) to use the disclaimer or decertification as an option for increasing their leverage and they can't do it anyway until they have been cleared by the court to do so due to this document that NHL filed. ( please don't ask me to read it again) I'll check the latest part once again.
78. Where there is – as here – an unfair labor practice charge pending before the
Board (which here includes the specific issue of the validity of any disclaimer by the NHLPA, an
issue over which the NLRB has exclusive jurisdiction), the non-statutory labor exemption will
continue to apply at least "until final resolution of Board proceedings and appeals therefrom."
Powell v. NFL, 930 F.2d 1293, 1303-04 (8th Cir. 1989). At a minimum, then, a federal court
cannot find that the non-statutory labor exemption has expired at least until the NLRB has issued
a decision on the NHL's unfair labor practice charge.
There you go, now I read it again.
Not a wise guy just saying. I appreciate all your work TG so don't get me wrong here.
That was a good read. Say what you will about the man, but I don't buy into the idea that he doesn't care about the game. I have no particular love for him, but he's fighting for the healthiest league possible, which is what's best for the owners, fans, and yes, even the players despite the fact they're too stupid to realize it.
That was a good read. Say what you will about the man, but I don't buy into the idea that he doesn't care about the game. I have no particular love for him, but he's fighting for the healthiest league possible, which is what's best for the owners, fans, and yes, even the players despite the fact they're too stupid to realize it.
QFT.
Especially that last phrase. I guess the union rather get rid of those bible-belt and southeast teams, which would of course eliminate player positions. Dumb ****s.
All SPC'S will be voided as a consequence of no NHLPA, not a threat but a result of consequence when NHLPA no longer exists.
63. Accordingly, in the event the NHLPA's decertification or disclaimer were found
not to be invalid, and the collective bargaining relationship between the parties were not
otherwise to continue, the SPCs – which were the product of that collective bargaining
relationship and are dependent on the continuation of that relationship – would be void and
unenforceable as a matter of law
No court, lockout unlegal ++ and after NHLPA decertifies or .. can touch this thing due to a lot of differnt acts and laws. The court can only take actions to see if the claims NHL has filed is accurate or not, meaning the court can tell the NHLPA that what NHL has been saying ( Written in the legal document) is accurate and true or.... not.
If NHLPA can digg up some own legal acts of their own to protect their own ass and counter NHL then the pingpong match continues, but I really doubt that they can.
by the way one of the NHL claims is that the NHLPA is not allowed by law (not sure) to use the disclaimer or decertification as an option for increasing their leverage and they can't do it anyway until they have been cleared by the court to do so due to this document that NHL filed. ( please don't ask me to read it again) I'll check the latest part once again.
78. Where there is – as here – an unfair labor practice charge pending before the
Board (which here includes the specific issue of the validity of any disclaimer by the NHLPA, an
issue over which the NLRB has exclusive jurisdiction), the non-statutory labor exemption will
continue to apply at least "until final resolution of Board proceedings and appeals therefrom."
Powell v. NFL, 930 F.2d 1293, 1303-04 (8th Cir. 1989). At a minimum, then, a federal court
cannot find that the non-statutory labor exemption has expired at least until the NLRB has issued
a decision on the NHL's unfair labor practice charge.
There you go, now I read it again.
Not a wise guy just saying. I appreciate all your work TG so don't get me wrong here.
No worries at all, its allot to take in.
I have had it explained to me that what the NHLPA is arguing is that they have the right to organize as a union as well as to disband and that the NHL's position is simply an attempt to deny the players the right of self determination.
The NHL is arguing that this is simply a negotiating tactic and believes that the PA can is using decertification as a means of exerting leverage in a labor negotiation and has threatened among other things that all contracts will be voided if they go through with the process.
There already isn't a CBA so all contracts are already voided today and will remain so until a new CBA is put in place that honors the previously arranged commitments due to the fact that these contracts were made as part of the recently expired CBA.
I know that there is more to it but that is what seems to be a big part of what is being argued/debated today.
Im in the middle of a couple of things right now and will come back and try to be more insightful and give a more thorough response but it seems like there is so much going on from both sides that there isn't any choice but to let the courts make a few decisions and then well know where we stand.
I can say that from what I am hearing it looks like there will be 2/3rds or more voting in favor of the decertification so one way or the other there is a standoff but it might be in the NHLPA itself too.
Sorry but I am having a confusing time with all of this today.
Last edited by Tonellisghost: 12-16-2012 at 05:40 PM.
The players have five days to vote via Internet. We won't know the final results until at least Thursday late.
Or sooner but I agree that the official results if they indeed happen will likely be later in the week. Based on what I am hearing from (duh duh duh......) "people" it sounds like the players have already decided that they are in for a penny or in for a pound and that everyone involved is already aware that if/when the vote is indeed tabulated that it will go through.
Here's to hoping that this whole indeed does get settled before things have to get truly ugly.
Thought I would add this bit. (not part of my response directly to what you had written Ron, just put it here).
IF the NHLPA is allowed its DOI it can reorganize as quickly as it wants to but if it goes through with decertification then it has to wait 12 months before it can reorganize making things very interesting/difficult.
Another possibility by the way of the many things to consider is that the courts could rule that both parties have to sit down and try one more time for a reasonable agreement. There was some lawyer talk that was explained to me along with the way that the courts can work things regarding these types of situations and I may have totally misunderstood what I was being told but that is what I gathered based on what I was told.
Last edited by Tonellisghost: 12-16-2012 at 03:09 PM.
No news as of yet (12:15 p.m. EST), but I am expecting both a(n) (expedited) ruling on the NHL's motion and a response filing by the NHLPA today as well.
I am surprised we have not had either...but the judge involved in the NHL motion may want to take some time to both read the motion and the court cases it references. (In other words, could take a couple of days or so.)
Aside from Westgarth, the Kings players have been very quiet throughout the lockout. I wonder what their stances are? Anyone have any info on our players and their POVs? I haven't seen any direct attacks to the owners nor bettman. Everyone seems like they're just patiently waiting?
What an absolutely interesting way that he put that.
Not sure if D. Fehr approves of Horcoff's enunciation.
Probably not. Even though it doesn't matter, given that Fehr works for him, not the other way around. Though, regardless of what happens, I would be shocked if there was still a hockey season this year. Just too many hurdles and not enough capable hurdlers.
__________________
"It has not been a good day. I lost my glasses early this morning and I had to go buy a pair of 79 dollar reading glasses today. 79 bucks. You can literally get them at Costco, three-for-20." - Darryl Sutter's response to going up 2-0 in the series.
If a Deal doesn't happen this week, then neither side is interested in making a deal.
I just don't see how the NHLPA is going to agree to a compressed schedule in mid January.
That is a whole lot of games in a short amount of time (that = injuries).
The NHL needs to start the season by the first week of January.
To get a 48 game season into a 14 week window would seem to indicate that the season needs to start by January 19th. This would end the regular season around April 27th and the playoffs would start the next week (first week of May). Most people believe that it would take 10-14 days from a signed deal to games being played, that puts the deadline for a deal around January 9th. That gives everyone 3 weeks to negotiate.
Of course, Fehr will just tell the NHLPA negotiating committee that these are dates are just an artificial deadline created by the NHL.
I still think that if they haven't dropped the puck to start the season by the 11th of January that there will just be too much time to get it going. The 19th could work too I guess but whichever it is it seems that if it isn't done before all of the EU players return to their respective league's after their xmas breaks (or their two weeks) then it would be allot of hassle to have them return to work only to run right back.
I still think that if they haven't dropped the puck to start the season by the 11th of January that there will just be too much time to get it going. The 19th could work too I guess but whichever it is it seems that if it isn't done before all of the EU players return to their respective league's after their xmas breaks (or their two weeks) then it would be allot of hassle to have them return to work only to run right back.
If they decide to have a season, they have to give the teams some time in order to do so.
For example, I haven't received my season ticket package. They would have to print those things and mail them, that might take a while (then again, they can simply fore-go the nice tri-color tickets in the nice booklet and just print out a bunch of paper, I guess.
There is a rumor going around that there is a little "blinking" taking place and that it could be the NHL who is doing it. Up until today (and possibly including today) the NHL has made an offer without any real concessions since their last offer but the rumor today is that the NHL might have made it known that they are willing to discuss a make whole 50/50 split along with an amendment to their previous escrow position that would effectively give the PA a small amount of what they are looking for in their offer.
IF and I do mean IF this is true then the PA is foolish if they don't make an effort to sit down with the NHL and at least try and negotiate one last time before they decertify.
Anything is possible but if this rumor is true and I believe it to be then this is exactly what both sides where trying to do last week with their collective filings.
Here's to hoping.
Last edited by Tonellisghost: 12-18-2012 at 12:47 PM.
No offense, but with the way these clowns conduct business, and judging on the past....I find NOTHING interesting about this.
I can certainly understand why you feel that way but to me its interesting because both sides threw out their "lets go to court" talk and now shortly after the league is said to have found out that the only play that the NHLPA has that might go through is to decertify, I think that what is going around now at least is a step towards communicating.
With the rumor running around about the PA possibly going ahead with decertification the league has nothing to gain by not giving it another try.
No offense, but with the way these clowns conduct business, and judging on the past....I find NOTHING interesting about this.
Agreed. I find this whole process rather boring. We've been through this way too many times in recent history and it will probably happen again. You've got kids who grow up in farm towns with no formal educations who become multi millionaires battling other multi millionaires over profits. I'm a fan of hockey, not of the CBA. You even see it on this site where fans have turned into accountants of the team-this guy gets paid too much in year 3 of the deal! The NHL has removed the focus of the fan from the game itself into the boardrooms, it's a recipe for disaster.
Agreed. I find this whole process rather boring. We've been through this way too many times in recent history and it will probably happen again. You've got kids who grow up in farm towns with no formal educations who become multi millionaires battling other multi millionaires over profits. I'm a fan of hockey, not of the CBA. You even see it on this site where fans have turned into accountants of the team-this guy gets paid too much in year 3 of the deal! The NHL has removed the focus of the fan from the game itself into the boardrooms, it's a recipe for disaster.
I agree with most everything you just said and still find some what is happenning to be interesting. I zm noy saying that the lockout itself is interesting at all, only that there are points during the process that are more interesting then others.
We are all here and so on some level are at least somewhat interested.
"Hainsey says the NHLPA is ready to return to the negotiation table with the NHL."
This speaks to the rumor I had mentioned earlier. If indeed the NHLPA gets the NHL back to the neg table we might see a deal happen. That would be very interesting to me.
I appreciate all your work TG so don't get me wrong here.
