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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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12-16-2012, 01:01 AM
  #901
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That's correct.

I live in Montreal. The city that LIVES hockey. There's a pretty staggering amount of apathy right now about all of this. It just doesn't get mentioned much anymore, it's really just a huge sentiment of "meh". Friends, acquaintances, gf's family... people who live hockey during the season and talk about it constantly. They barely even mention it now, and when they do it's just to say: "Don't think there will be a season, oh well".

Anger would be better honestly. Disinterest is something else. I feel it too. Fact? They don't deserve our money. They won't get mine. I'll watch... but there are ways to do that without contributing financially.

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12-16-2012, 05:17 AM
  #902
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Count me in the group of not caring. Right now I have the Knicks and Giants and 4 months the Yankees will be back then Tue cycle begins. Screw Bettman. Screw fehr. Screw the league and screw the PA. It took me 8 years to return to hockey after last lockout So Im just done with them all

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12-16-2012, 05:53 AM
  #903
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Disclaiming and decertifying are neither maneuvers nor tenets PA executive director Don Fehr embraces easily. This true believer in the power of collective bargaining has been loath to go down this route even while the rank-and-file has coalesced behind the process over the last month.

And yet here is the No Hope League, in court rather than on ice, filing actions to prevent the PA from undertaking an action of its own that the league is on record as believing would have negligible impact, anyway.

Reading the NHL’s complaint is a hoot. Honestly, it is. Before this — and the last couple of weeks — who would have believed the league’s hierarchy that includes Proskauer Rose power counsel Bob (The Buster) Batterman were such cut-ups?

Stop and think for a moment. Here is the league that just over a week ago was doing everything in its power to keep Don Fehr out of the bargaining process, and is now going to court to ensure he continues to represent the players in the bargaining process.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...CWQFffGXHbTEtL

Quote:
“The NHL’s pre-emptive court filing is really quite ridiculous. With all their talk about wanting a negotiating partner, the league will now spend precious time and energy attempting to convince a federal court to prolong the lockout,” said a source on the union side.

The NHL and NHLPA did hold a conference call Friday to discuss transition rules and compliance issues which are two stumbling blocks in negotiations but there was no mention at the time this was headed for a battle.

Daly confirmed bargaining can continue if both sides are willing to talk up until the union actually scores a victory in court with the disclaimer and all the players head their separate ways, sort of.

“Yes, we can continue to bargain until such time as they purport to disclaim interest. Then, it will come to a stop,” said Daly.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/15/...reakup-process

I love how the NHL is getting tough here. They accuse the NHLPA of bad faith bargaining when the NHL told the players that putting Fehr back in the room was a deal breaker and the NHL said it would slow the momentum down when even the pro-NHL people thought they were wrong. Which side is not bargaining in good faith? You can't the tell the other side to ditch their guy because you don't like him. Then 1 week later,the NHL submits a brief about what a great job Fehr is doing.

Brooks pointed out the NHL said they weren't concerned with the union dissolving but they ran to the court to submit the papers. Aaron Ward's tweet hit twitter at 1pm and before 5pm,two complaints were filed.

The NHLPA could file a motion to dismiss the NHL lawsuit by submitting their own 200 page document. The judge will tell both of them to stop wasting his time and deal with it themselves.

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12-16-2012, 08:54 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Variance is another issue that is major stumbling block

NHL wants 5% ,, NHLPA keeps demanding absurd contract variances
The variance and the term lengths should be tied in negotiations. If the NHL can get a 5% variance, why the **** would they still be insisting on 5 year term lengths?

The "hill we die on" quote was the stupidest thing uttered in 3+ months of almost non-stop stupidity on both sides.

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12-16-2012, 09:19 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The variance and the term lengths should be tied in negotiations. If the NHL can get a 5% variance, why the **** would they still be insisting on 5 year term lengths?

The "hill we die on" quote was the stupidest thing uttered in 3+ months of almost non-stop stupidity on both sides.
For once we agree on something. The quote, whether said in the heat of the moment or premeditated, has made it more difficult to reach a deal.

I am completely conflicted in how I feel at this point. On one hand I support the players 100%, blame this fiasco entirely on the owners, and think that the union needs to stay united and fight to the end for their rights and beliefs.

On the other hand, I think that the deal offered by the NHL is not all the bad (considering the concessions already made by the PA), that a 10 year CBA is essential for restoring stability to a sport that if this goes on longer, may be on its death bed, and that for the good of the game, the players should accept it.

I think that it has proven true that every deal that is trumpeted as an owner victory always, in the end, comes out just the opposite. It was the owners and GMs (true with player agents) subverted the salary cap established after 04-05. Management is always their own worst enemy and always need to be bailed out by the players. I think players can continue to count on owner stupidity.

So......perhaps (again I'm torn) the PA needs to accept the leagues last offer and move on.

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12-16-2012, 09:28 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
For once we agree on something. The quote, whether said in the heat of the moment or premeditated, has made it more difficult to reach a deal.

I am completely conflicted in how I feel at this point. On one hand I support the players 100%, blame this fiasco entirely on the owners, and think that the union needs to stay united and fight to the end for their rights and beliefs.

On the other hand, I think that the deal offered by the NHL is not all the bad (considering the concessions already made by the PA), that a 10 year CBA is essential for restoring stability to a sport that if this goes on longer, may be on its death bed, and that for the good of the game, the players should accept it.

I think that it has proven true that every deal that is trumpeted as an owner victory always, in the end, comes out just the opposite. It was the owners and GMs (true with player agents) subverted the salary cap established after 04-05. Management is always their own worst enemy and always need to be bailed out by the players. I think players can continue to count on owner stupidity.

So......perhaps (again I'm torn) the PA needs to accept the leagues last offer and move on.
It was nice while it lasted, but back to disagreeing.

I honestly dont know how you could support any side 100% at this point. Thats just absurd. Both sides are shooting themselves in the foot.

As for the ridiculous blanket statement that "management is its own worst enemy," where do I start with that one? Overall, it just shows a complete lack of understanding when it comes to the landscape of the NHL and market economics. Theres a handful of teams that are financially healthy enough to lay out $100M over 12+ years. Once those teams establish a market, that becomes the overall market for elite players. The rest of the league is forced to play in that sandbox if it wants to land the league's elite.

The reason for all this is the top-heavy landscape of the NHL, not because the owners - guys who have become multi-millionaires in their lives - are "stupid"

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12-16-2012, 10:49 AM
  #907
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Lets just stick to the common ground and hope that players, for whatever motive, decide to accept the deal.

I much rather argue about on-ice issues, coaches decisions, strategy, the up or downside of players, etc.

The good of the game needs to be considered here and if the owners are not going to budge, the players should.

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12-16-2012, 10:57 AM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
Lets just stick to the common ground and hope that players, for whatever motive, decide to accept the deal.

I much rather argue about on-ice issues, coaches decisions, strategy, the up or downside of players, etc.

The good of the game needs to be considered here and if the owners are not going to budge, the players should.
it should be give and take though. both need to realize that they aren't getting everything they want. if the players budge some, the owners need to as well.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:06 AM
  #909
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Dicertification question

Hi guys. Couple of decertification questions, if anyone knows. If this gets voted into effect, do all contracts become null? If so, when the CBA is settled , do players resume their original deal? Or is everyone a free agent after the CBA is signed?

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12-16-2012, 11:19 AM
  #910
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i said bascially the same thing in the lockout thead, but IMO, i've heard many interpretations of the void part of the file. some say that if means the nhl protects itself so they don't have to pay the players, since the lockout will technically be over after this, when it goes to court (if i'm reading that correctly). another interpretation is what you're saying, that all players would be UFA at the resolution of the lockout, or would be grandfathered in.
i think it would be madness to cancel the contacts and have 700 UFA's. First, the league would never recover, and if it did, teams like columbus and such would be obsolete.

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12-16-2012, 11:20 AM
  #911
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I absolutely agree and I'm pro player here. But what happens if ownership doesn't budge? As I said, part of me believes that a union needs to fight to the death for what it believes. That is a core part of my background. As someone out there on the far left fringes politically, part of me says "to hell with ownership, fight on brothers."

But what will happen if ownership is willing to emulate General Custer and die on the hill? This season will be gone. Litigation will drags on for months. Next season will be in jeopardy. The very future of the NHL will be called into doubt.

The proposed deal stinks for the players but even their own last proposal reflects the changing landscape in all professional sports in North America.

I would make one more stab at negotiating, accept a 10 year CBA, and try to get some giveback on contracting rights. If the NHL continues to stand firm and the calendar goes beyond Christmas and New Years, the PA will be faced with a choice: fight on, perhaps with the decertification process or accept the deal.

All I'm suggesting is that, against what every part of my gut tells me, the PA needs to accept the offer. Maybe I'm just in a holiday mood and need to have my head examined. Maybe tomorrow I wake up angry at the NHL again, and say continue the fight.

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12-16-2012, 11:27 AM
  #912
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The only reason I'm guessing its not contract Armageddon, is because I don't remembering of it happening the nba

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12-16-2012, 11:30 AM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
All I'm suggesting is that, against what every part of my gut tells me, the PA needs to accept the offer. Maybe I'm just in a holiday mood and need to have my head examined. Maybe tomorrow I wake up angry at the NHL again, and say continue the fight.
If the league isn't willing to meet in the middle on contract term the PA should just tell them to bugger off. Going from unlimited contracts to 5 years is just insulting. Agree to 7 years with a firm variance (5%-10%) and play hockey. This is just stupid.

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12-16-2012, 11:38 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Ardi44 View Post
The only reason I'm guessing its not contract Armageddon, is because I don't remembering of it happening the nba
didn't the nba settle its lockout before this thing went legal nuclear?

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12-16-2012, 11:39 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
If the league isn't willing to meet in the middle on contract term the PA should just tell them to bugger off. Going from unlimited contracts to 5 years is just insulting. Agree to 7 years with a firm variance (5%-10%) and play hockey. This is just stupid.
To be accurate the NHL is looking at NBA model (5 yrs for UFA / 7 yrs for own talent)

Would lead to alot of sign and trades like NBA if it happens

Guys who will be FA but teams aren't going to bring them back will be traded for picks/prospects so teams could sign them to 7 yr deals

So it isn't as dire as many portray it ,, Stars will still get 7 yr deals either thru there own team or a team that trades for there rights

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12-16-2012, 11:51 AM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
To be accurate the NHL is looking at NBA model (5 yrs for UFA / 7 yrs for own talent)

Would lead to alot of sign and trades like NBA if it happens

Guys who will be FA but teams aren't going to bring them back will be traded for picks/prospects so teams could sign them to 7 yr deals

So it isn't as dire as many portray it ,, Stars will still get 7 yr deals either thru there own team or a team that trades for there rights
So, essentially like sign and trade? I guess the point is to protect the small market teams who might not be able to meet a players contract demands. So as much as this totally sucks for teams like the Rangers, I can see why it would benefit the league.

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12-16-2012, 11:55 AM
  #917
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If the league isn't willing to meet in the middle on contract term the PA should just tell them to bugger off. Going from unlimited contracts to 5 years is just insulting. Agree to 7 years with a firm variance (5%-10%) and play hockey. This is just stupid.
No disagreement, and this is what my gut tells me also. But will the NHL move? Everything they have done: changing the line in the sand constantly, walking out of meetings after 10 minutes, responding to offers by voice mail, trying to undermine Fehr, never planning to really negotiate, was planned out months ago. They are working on a playbook designed around one fact: the PA will cave. Hey, it worked once, why not again? I really think they plan to "die on that hill." I think that you should be careful what you wish for. If the PA continues to fight the good fight, again as my gut tells me they should and probably will, this sport is DOA.

I've always been a militant when it comes to worker-boss relations. Bugger off may be to gentle words. The offer is insulting.

But what of the bigger picture? The owners seem willing to burn down their own shop to have their way. The risk that no shop will be left doesn't seem to matter to them. Reminds me of that old Vietnam strategy "to save this village we have to burn it down." Sheer insanity and disaster.

If the PA decides to keep on going, this fan supports them 100% If they decide to accept the offer, I will give them kudos for putting the interest of the sport first, something ownership, in their short-sightedness, doesn't seem to care about.

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12-16-2012, 12:06 PM
  #918
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[QUOTE=Lundsanity30;56573583]Ranger fan or not I'm done with NHL. No other sport cares less about its fans[/QUOTE

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to do what they want but to me anyone posting or reading this board this far into the lockout is at least somewhat of a diehard fan and will absolutely be back watching games when this is resolved

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12-16-2012, 12:12 PM
  #919
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to do what they want but to me anyone posting or reading this board this far into the lockout is at least somewhat of a diehard fan and will absolutely be back watching games when this is resolved
Based on what? I post on this board because I like the people on here and we have good talks on football, etc. It doesn't mean I will support the NHL outside of watching Rangers games when they are on TV. The only thing I will likely do, other than watch some Rangers games, is watch the draft to see where the guys I WILL watch go.

Forget watching anything else that has to do with this league. Forget spending money to ever go to the games like I used to.

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12-16-2012, 01:33 PM
  #920
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didn't the nba settle its lockout before this thing went legal nuclear?
Players filed lawsuits against the NBA and the whole thing was moving to the courts, but both sides agreed to a deal before any of the court cases really became relevant (beyond possibly pressuring the NBA)

I'm ready to start blaming Proskaur Rose in all of this since they represented the NBA in their lockout as well, and both lockouts have been identical so far. I get the feeling they're part of the force behind the owners being such dicks

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12-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #921
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Gary Bettman is worse than David Stern. The sport is not as popular as the NBA. The owners, and players for that matter don't care about the fans, however, I place the majority of the blame on the owners. I don't see this following the script of the NBA. I do see no NHL season.

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12-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #922
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I'll be a casual fan and a fan of the Rangers, sure. I'll never post on here like i used to or follow the league like I used to. I have posted on here less and less, anyway. I used to support this league more than anyone I really know. Spent tons of money on it, watched countless games . . . Now I'll just tune in when the Rangers are playing and I won't go out of my way to watch the games like I used to. I won't be the only one to do that.
You'll be back watching whatever was normal for you before the lockout if you were a diehard fan before this started. It may take a month or two but come playoff time you are going to tell me you will only watch Ranger games? C'mon.

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12-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #923
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You'll be back watching whatever was normal for you before the lockout if you were a diehard fan before this started. It may take a month or two but come playoff time you are going to tell me you will only watch Ranger games? C'mon.
Don't ****ing tell me what I will be doing and don't say "if" I was a diehard fan.

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12-16-2012, 02:12 PM
  #924
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You'll be back watching whatever was normal for you before the lockout if you were a diehard fan before this started. It may take a month or two but come playoff time you are going to tell me you will only watch Ranger games? C'mon.
This mentality is why we fans are treated like ****.


Everybody goes running back and keeps spending the $

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12-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #925
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Hi guys. Couple of decertification questions, if anyone knows. If this gets voted into effect, do all contracts become null? If so, when the CBA is settled , do players resume their original deal? Or is everyone a free agent after the CBA is signed?

It will not get voted into effect. They will settle long before that. The process will take them almost into the spring to get this done.

People need to separate the personalities here to understand what's going on.

1. The negotiations are held by Bettman, Fehr and other people we know.

2. The legal part is done by the lawyers who work for Bettman and Fehr.

3. Fehr can tell his lawyers to go fight a side-battle against Bettman's lawyers. This does not detract one second of his time. This does not prevent negotiations. In fact, this is a regular tactic used by law firms all the time in literally all their cases. While you negotiate, you proceed with fighting in court. This is done even when you are sure you'll be able to negotiate a settlement because you want to show the other party that in case you fail, you want to have plan B.

What the NHLPA has filed is just a way to show the NHL that this time, unlike 2004, they have options and will not just collapse as soon as the season is cancelled.

If the owners are convinced that the players have options in case the season fails, that actually makes it MORE likely that there will be a settlement because it forces both sides into a situation where they feel like they have to negotiate rather than thinking, "we have all the cards, they should just come crawling to us on their knees."

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