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Selänne vs Modano

View Poll Results: Choose a player (all-time):
Teemu Ilmari Selänne 136 89.47%
Michael Thomas Modano, Jr. 14 9.21%
I'm sorry I can't, they are way too close 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-11-2012, 06:39 PM
  #126
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But you're only looking at career season numbers vs. career playoff numbers. Selanne spent 40.3% of his regular season games as a Top-10 regular season scorer, but only 24.3% of his playoff games as a Top-10 regular season scorer. It's obvious why his drop is severe if you're mindful of when he was recording the playoff GP.
That would certainly be a valid criticism, if I was only comparing career PPG in regular season vs. playoffs (a common error). However, I was comparing expected PPG (weighted avg. based on regular season PPG) vs. actual PPG.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Two overtime games come to mind: The first was a tape-to-tape lob pass from his own blue-line to a streaking Paul Kariya that won Game 6 and forced Game 7 (Phoenix 1997). The second is the OT goal against Detroit. And don't underrate what he did in the series against Calgary. Game 6 saw the Ducks down by a goal, and Selanne roofed a backhand to tie the game. The referees called goaltender interference in a bogus call with which no one agreed, so Selanne went out and scored another goal to tie it.
He had some big moments, I just would expect that he would have more. The combination of playing on a lot of bad teams and in the DPE didn't help him though.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I don't see why the fact that he led two of the first three best-on-best Olympics in scoring gets brushed off though. I know you know about it, but still, some people act like he couldn't perform under pressure, when it's really only a case of him recording so much of his playoff GP outside of his best years. I mean, he led the 2006 Mighty Ducks in playoff scoring and finished second on the Ducks in 2007 - those were the only two runs he had.
He was particularly impressive in '98 Olympics. It's sort of an implicit agreement that we evaluate players primarily on their NHL performance. I do think it's a bit unfair that a player like Makarov is ranked higher based on overseas accomplishments and international tourneys. How do we know Selanne couldn't have done something similar? We do know he was great in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You think Selanne had an easier time standing out when he was playing with Paul Kariya? Up until 2005-06, people thought Kariya stirred the drink. I mean, would a player placing #2/#2 in goals and points typically finish fifth in Hart voting? How about when they finish #1/#2 in goals and points and finish fifth again? Selanne is underrated by his Hart voting record. We saw in 1997-98 that he was capable of the same #1/#2 finishes (until he sat out the remainder of the season with injury and was passed up by six players) without Kariya, and that was the only time he was recognized. So no, I don't think there's any reason to believe he had an easier time standing out than Modano, because while Modano had a greater number of elite teammates, Selanne and Kariya were the #2 and #3 skaters in the world.
I do think he was slighted some in Hart voting. He and Jagr both were, perhaps in part due to anti-European bias, and the DPE being unfavorable to forwards (Hasek and Lidstrom didn't seem to face the same bias in a defensive era).


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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
They would have been a cellar dweller without him. Look at 1996:

He joins the Mighty Ducks when they're 18-30-5 (dead last in the West the year before) and the team goes 17-9-3 the rest of the way. In fact, they only miss the playoffs because they have to chase down the team he played for at the beginning of the year! #4 seed the next year, with him playing all the way. They were lousy.

Mighty Ducks Goal Differential (Selanne's +/-)
1997: +12 (Selanne: +28)
1998: -56 (Selanne: +12)
1999: +9 (Selanne: +18)
2000: -10 (Selanne: +6)
Selanne did play on a lot of bad teams in his prime. His ES data is strong, so perhaps he doesn't get enough credit for his overall play.

I'm a fan of Selanne, but have been holding his skates to the fire a bit and playing devil's advocate. Selanne's overall play is underrated some, while Modano's offense is underrated some as well. It probably comes down to whether Modano's peak playoff performances are enough to overcome Selanne's elite scoring and goal scoring, his better post-lockout playoffs, and his stellar international play.

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Old
12-11-2012, 06:52 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I do think he was slighted some in Hart voting. He and Jagr both were, perhaps in part due to anti-European bias, and the DPE being unfavorable to forwards (Hasek and Lidstrom didn't seem to face the same bias in a defensive era).
Selanne's prime was 1993 to 2007 (though this includes his seasons playing through injury. Here are the European Hart finalists (top three) during that span:

1993: none
1994: Fedorov, Hasek
1995: Jagr, Hasek
1996: none
1997: Hasek
1998: Hasek, Jagr, Selanne
1999: Jagr, Yashin, Hasek
2000: Jagr, Bure
2001: Jagr
2002: none
2003: Forsberg, Naslund
2004: none
2006: Jagr, Kiprusoff
2007: none

Out of the 42 Hart finalists from 1993 to 2007, 18 (43%) were Europeans. That's roughly in proportion to the percentage of players who were European. I don't think there was much if any discrimination in the awards voting.

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Old
12-11-2012, 06:59 PM
  #128
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You can call the Ducks "mediocre" at that time for sure. It's hard to garner Hart votes when part of the process involves how well the team did with you. I think it goes to show you just how revered Selanne was at that time in the NHL that he received such great Hart consideration despite not being on an elite team.

As for the 2007 Cup run. Sure, there were lots of Ducks that played well. 2007 was a weird year, you could have even given it to Alfredsson on the Sens. But Selanne was certainly part of a melting pot of Duck players that played around the same level. Personally I would have given it to Pronger but Selanne scored the most important goal in Ducks' history.
i don't know. to me, that's like saying if the devils had won last year henrique was a conn smythe finalist. he scored some big goals and was a good contributor, but he's well behind the true smythe finalists. in anaheim, i think it's pretty close to unanimous, then as now, that the big four were giguere, pronger, niedermayer, and pahlsson.

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Old
12-11-2012, 07:54 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know. to me, that's like saying if the devils had won last year henrique was a conn smythe finalist. he scored some big goals and was a good contributor, but he's well behind the true smythe finalists. in anaheim, i think it's pretty close to unanimous, then as now, that the big four were giguere, pronger, niedermayer, and pahlsson.
I think though that had the Devils won we would have seen more or less a unanimous vote in favour of Brodeur. Then there would be Kovalchuk (and I would assume with a Devil win he gets a few more than 19 points). Then you'd have to say Parise. I don't think Henrique was in the mix at all. With 2007 they were all lumped together so close that it wouldn't have been crazy to suggest as high as half a dozen names get mentioned. Selanne isn't my first choice either, so maybe it is more of a product of a rather weak year for the Conn Smythe. And I did mention Modano's best run is certainly better.

By the way, true story here, I missed Game 5 of the final in 2007. I knew Anaheim had won so I called my wife and asked for the details. I asked her who won the Conn Smythe and she said: "Niedermayer." I paused for a second and literally said, "Rob didn't do THAT well." She then said, "No, it was Scott." I honestly was taken back by it, that goes to show you how a hockey fan who had followed the 2007 playoffs so closely didn't even have Scott Niedermayer on the radar. A weird year for sure.

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Old
12-12-2012, 01:16 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
For those that say Modano would only put up 80 points because dallas had a tight defensive system. Just remember that modano was completely one dimensional from 1990-96 and he wasn't setting the world on fire.
Well he did score 50 goals in 93-94 and then 7 more in only 9 playoff games, which is nothing to sneeze at.

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Old
12-12-2012, 04:09 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I do think he was slighted some in Hart voting. He and Jagr both were, perhaps in part due to anti-European bias, and the DPE being unfavorable to forwards (Hasek and Lidstrom didn't seem to face the same bias in a defensive era).
I don't think the DPE was that unfavourable to forwards in terms of Hart voting. The fact that it was harder to score seemed to put an emphasis on the value of forwards who could. Other than Pronger's win (a close one over a 3/4 season by Jagr), defensemen weren't generally in the discussion in the same way you had guys like Bourque, Howe and Langway come up in the 80's, and while goaltenders did well, Hasek's peak would have always received consideration it was that good, and it was one of the best periods for goaltenders.

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12-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
As for the 2007 Cup run. Sure, there were lots of Ducks that played well. 2007 was a weird year, you could have even given it to Alfredsson on the Sens. But Selanne was certainly part of a melting pot of Duck players that played around the same level. Personally I would have given it to Pronger but Selanne scored the most important goal in Ducks' history.
Bingo.


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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
By the way, true story here, I missed Game 5 of the final in 2007. I knew Anaheim had won so I called my wife and asked for the details. I asked her who won the Conn Smythe and she said: "Niedermayer." I paused for a second and literally said, "Rob didn't do THAT well." She then said, "No, it was Scott." I honestly was taken back by it, that goes to show you how a hockey fan who had followed the 2007 playoffs so closely didn't even have Scott Niedermayer on the radar. A weird year for sure.
No matter which of the Ducks won the Conn Smythe, someone would have said something. You can't give it to Getzlaf, because even though he was the leading scorer, he was AWOL against Vancouver. You can't give it to Giguere, because even though he was brilliant against Vancouver and Detroit, he sat out most of Minnesota because of his son. You can't give it to Pronger, because even though he was the best player, the Ducks went 2-0 during his suspensions. You can't give it to Pahlsson, because even though he was contributing defensively, most of the surprising offensive success from the line was visibly being generated by the defensemen and Travis Moen and Rob Niedermayer. You can't give it to Selanne, because even though he was the team's best skater at the only time of adversity, he was below his regular season production. You can't give it to McDonald, because even though he scored 5 goals in the Finals, he only recorded 2 points in the 10 games that preceded Ottawa. You can't give it to Beauchemin, because even though he played more time in each game than anyone, he didn't chip in offensively from the blueline like a Scott Niedermayer. You can't give it to Perry, because even though he was the leading even-strength scorer in the entire playoffs, he didn't take over any one series or game.

But there wasn't really any reason not to give it to Scott Niedermayer. Scored only three goals, but if Selanne's goal is the most important for the team, then Scott Niedermayer scored #2, #3, and #4. He knocked out the Vancouver Canucks in OT to win the series. He tied the series against Detroit - also in OT. He tied Game 5 against Detroit in the final minute to allow for Selanne's OT goal. He didn't get suspended. He played five minutes of short-handed hockey every night. And quite frankly, he earned himself a little bit of good will for turning down a $7.8 million contract in New Jersey to come to Anaheim for less - specifically to help his brother win a Stanley Cup. It makes for a good story, and while I just got done naming literally nine players of a single team that were in the conversation with Alfredsson, when you have that many players contributing to a unit, the captain deserves some credit. I would have said Giguere, Pronger, Pahlsson, Getzlaf - in that order - but it was a team that could have won without any individual one of them most likely (and if I hadn't seen the team rally in a must-win against Detroit without Pronger, I would have never believed it). The only true indispensable player on the roster won the Conn Smythe.


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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I don't think the DPE was that unfavourable to forwards in terms of Hart voting.
Or Europeans, in my opinion. I believe Selanne and Kariya, while having great chemistry together, made it more difficult on each other to get recognition, particularly on Selanne in 1997 and on both in 1999.

1997 - Playoffs
Selanne (18 of 54 ballots); 2nd in Goals, 2nd in Points
Kariya (42 of 54 ballots); 9th in Goals, 3rd in Points

1998 - No Playoffs, No Kariya
Selanne (46 of 54 ballots); 1st in Goals, 8th in Points (de facto 2nd in Points)

1999 - Playoffs
Selanne (27 of 56 ballots); 1st in Goals, 2nd in Points
Kariya (16 of 56 ballots); 10th in Goals, 3rd in Points


That's two-thirds of the voters ranking Selanne outside the Top-Five in a year in which he placed 2nd in both Goals and Points, and more than one-half of the voters ranking him outside the Top-Five in a year in which he placed 1st in Goals and 2nd in Points. I like Alexei Yashin as much as the next guy (42 of 56 ballots in 1999), but come on. To say that Modano had a harder time getting Hart recognition because of his teammates than Selanne isn't accurate.

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Old
12-12-2012, 04:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
No matter which of the Ducks won the Conn Smythe, someone would have said something. You can't give it to Getzlaf, because even though he was the leading scorer, he was AWOL against Vancouver. You can't give it to Giguere, because even though he was brilliant against Vancouver and Detroit, he sat out most of Minnesota because of his son. You can't give it to Pronger, because even though he was the best player, the Ducks went 2-0 during his suspensions. You can't give it to Pahlsson, because even though he was contributing defensively, most of the surprising offensive success from the line was visibly being generated by the defensemen and Travis Moen and Rob Niedermayer. You can't give it to Selanne, because even though he was the team's best skater at the only time of adversity, he was below his regular season production. You can't give it to McDonald, because even though he scored 5 goals in the Finals, he only recorded 2 points in the 10 games that preceded Ottawa. You can't give it to Beauchemin, because even though he played more time in each game than anyone, he didn't chip in offensively from the blueline like a Scott Niedermayer. You can't give it to Perry, because even though he was the leading even-strength scorer in the entire playoffs, he didn't take over any one series or game.

But there wasn't really any reason not to give it to Scott Niedermayer. Scored only three goals, but if Selanne's goal is the most important for the team, then Scott Niedermayer scored #2, #3, and #4. He knocked out the Vancouver Canucks in OT to win the series. He tied the series against Detroit - also in OT. He tied Game 5 against Detroit in the final minute to allow for Selanne's OT goal. He didn't get suspended. He played five minutes of short-handed hockey every night. And quite frankly, he earned himself a little bit of good will for turning down a $7.8 million contract in New Jersey to come to Anaheim for less - specifically to help his brother win a Stanley Cup. It makes for a good story, and while I just got done naming literally nine players of a single team that were in the conversation with Alfredsson, when you have that many players contributing to a unit, the captain deserves some credit. I would have said Giguere, Pronger, Pahlsson, Getzlaf - in that order - but it was a team that could have won without any individual one of them most likely (and if I hadn't seen the team rally in a must-win against Detroit without Pronger, I would have never believed it). The only true indispensable player on the roster won the Conn Smythe.
It was truly a strange year, no doubt. I'll stick with the notion of giving it to Pronger. I mean, yeah the Ducks pulled through and won the two games he was suspended for, but if anything it only made Pronger that much more of a scary prescence in my mind.

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Old
12-12-2012, 05:10 PM
  #134
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Selanne

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Old
12-15-2012, 03:41 PM
  #135
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glorious

what does tähtien sota – loppuottelu ilman play offseja mean though? and how old is he here?

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:39 AM
  #136
TAnnala
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glorious

what does tähtien sota – loppuottelu ilman play offseja mean though? and how old is he here?
It means: Star wars- final game without play offs.

I have absolutely no ideanwhat is behind that sentence tough. I also have no idea hpw old he is. Maybe, 18-20. Before he left to play in NA

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #137
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I don't think the late 1990s was at all biased against Europeans in voting, but rather in the particular case of Selanne he seemed to get the short end of the stick when it came to the media groupthink, specifically the meme that developed (and was heavily pushed by THN and others) that there was a clear "Top 4" in the NHL (at least among forwards) of Jagr, Kariya, Lindros, and Forsberg. This in spite of the fact that Selanne was routinely outproducing, or at least keeping pace, with most of those four. The media really were pushing Kariya especially as the new Canadian Gretzkyesque finesse superstar (counterpointed to Lindros as the Howe/Messier power superstar) and seemed inclined to rate all his performances over Selanne's if they were even or even if Kariya was a bit behind.

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