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Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:02 PM
  #201
TheDevilMadeMe
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This happened in the PCHA in 1913-14

Quote:
In the PCHA the blue lines are added to the ice and forward passing is allowed between the blue lines.
http://www.makojo.com/earlyhockey.html

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This season marked the introduction of the blue lines used in today's official ice hockey rinks. The league sub-divided the rink into three zones of 67 feet (20 m), allowing forward passing in the centre zone. This change was at the instigation of the Patrick brothers.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913%E2...14_PCHA_season

The NHL wouldn't adopt this rule until 1918-19:
http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey.../nhlrules.html

(Forward passing in the offensive zone was allowed in 1929-30 as most of us know).

This is the most famous of the PCHA rules created to increase the speed of the game, but it isn't the only one.

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12-15-2012, 04:22 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Iain Fyffe wrote an article about the changing role of the rover in the PCHA. His conclusion was that the rover was initially an offensive position, but became a defensive position in 1918.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...?articleid=699
Thanks. That must be a huge part of the reason PCHA scoring dropped significantly that year, as we discussed earlier in posts 51, 55, and 57


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12-15-2012, 04:34 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Anyone have some last minute words on how Fuhr/Smith should be ranked relative to Holmes/Hainsworth?
I have those 4 as a big jumble from 3-6, basically all very close. My preliminary thought is Fuhr and Hainsworth at 3 and 4, but I'm not confident at all about the order for those 4.

At first glance, Hainsworth seems to have fewer holes in his resume than Smith or Fuhr. But on the other hand, he doesn't seem to have been praised as much as them either, so maybe it evens out.

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12-15-2012, 04:38 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Anyone have some last minute words on how Fuhr/Smith should be ranked relative to Holmes/Hainsworth?
I had Fuhr & Smith back-to-back, behind Hainsworth and well ahead of Holmes.

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12-15-2012, 04:43 PM
  #205
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I had Fuhr & Smith back-to-back, behind Hainsworth and well ahead of Holmes.
I wish we had had more time before a big Hainsworth / Holmes comparison, to be honest. I have Hainsworth ahead, but I'm not 100% confident about that.

Right now, the only data point I'm confident of is that Hainsworth was inducted into the HHOF quite a bit earlier, so that's what I went with.

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12-15-2012, 04:46 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This happened in the PCHA in 1913-14

http://www.makojo.com/earlyhockey.html
Reading through all of that, one walks away with the impression that Holmes should be held in higher regard than Lehman, given the number of mentions of Holmes being extraordinary behind extraordinarily dry offense. In fact, the author goes on to name Holmes as his PCHA 1st all star, and Lehman 2nd at the end there. Interesting. Top goalies of the NHA: Benedict and Vezina. Top goalies of the first 10 years of the NHL: Benedict and Vezina. Top WCHL goalies: Hainsworth and Reid. Also interesting. In my words and his reckoning, that would make Holmes and Hainsworth the "best of the rest", I suppose, and I still put Lehman decidedly behind them (and Benedict, and Vezina, for that matter).

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12-15-2012, 04:50 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Reading through all of that, one walks away with the impression that Holmes should be held in higher regard than Lehman, given the number of mentions of Holmes being extraordinary behind extraordinarily dry offense. In fact, the author goes on to name Holmes as his PCHA 1st all star, and Lehman 2nd at the end there. Interesting. Top goalies of the NHA: Benedict and Vezina. Top goalies of the first 10 years of the NHL: Benedict and Vezina. Top WCHL goalies: Hainsworth and Reid. Also interesting. In my words and his reckoning, that would make Holmes and Hainsworth the "best of the rest", I suppose.
The author of that website pretty clearly didn't do much newspaper research (most likely because it wasn't around when he put up the site) and based his opinions on GAA if he has Holmes above Lehman for the PCHA. He's also wrong on when Holmes came to the PCHA - he says HOlmes came over with Nighbor in 1914-15; that's false, Holmes came over the following year, as can be confirmed on just about any other website (wikipedia, hockeydb, hockey reference, legendsofhockey, etc)

I was citing him for the rule change because he described it better than wikipedia (which confirms the date).

(I could go through other picks of his that are strange, but picking Reid (whoever that is) over Hal Winkler for the WCHL seems very odd).


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12-15-2012, 05:08 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The author of that website pretty clearly didn't do much newspaper research (most likely because it wasn't around when he put up the site) and based his opinions on GAA if he has Holmes above Lehman for the PCHA. He's also wrong on when Holmes came to the PCHA - he says HOlmes came over with Nighbor in 1914-15; that's false, Holmes came over the following year, as can be confirmed on just about any other website (wikipedia, hockeydb, hockey reference, legendsofhockey, etc)

I was citing him for the rule change because he described it better than wikipedia (which confirms the date).

(I could go through other picks of his that are strange, but picking Reid (whoever that is) over Hal Winkler for the WCHL seems very odd).
You'll have an easier time finding him if you spell his name "right" (presumably): Charlie Reid. But yeah, that one is weird considering how Winkler looks by comparison statistically, or the existence of guys like Hec Fowler, or Ted Lindsay's dad, etc. I was most interested in how twice Holmes seems to have been given (corroborating?) credit for carrying two offensively anemic squads - something I'm not sure Lehman was ever given particular credit for, given Cyclone Taylor's career, for example.

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12-15-2012, 05:37 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
(I could go through other picks of his that are strange, but picking Reid (whoever that is) over Hal Winkler for the WCHL seems very odd).
Just today read about this guy. Weird selection.

Very avarage pro goalie.Was Lehmans stunt in Vancouver Maroons and played because of Lehmans illness. In 26-27 he was Holmes spare goalie in Detroit Cougars (never played).

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12-15-2012, 05:53 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I wish we had had more time before a big Hainsworth / Holmes comparison, to be honest. I have Hainsworth ahead, but I'm not 100% confident about that.

Right now, the only data point I'm confident of is that Hainsworth was inducted into the HHOF quite a bit earlier, so that's what I went with.
Holmes had a bit of a history jumping contracts. Early HHOF voters tend to frown on such player movement.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 12-15-2012 at 08:07 PM. Reason: typo
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12-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
A work in progress in 1913, which by 1914 was capable of winning a Stanley Cup.


I definitely agree Lehman's unique abilities - that would be a compliment to every other goalie in history - helped him with Vancouver's potent rosters. It seems strange the PCHA made a rule in their final season to ban goaltenders from going behind their nets.

It's good to mindful of which hype machines get out of control too, but it wasn't only Vancouver's papers calling him the best of the West along with Ion correct?

This was the compilation of quotes about Lehman referred to throughout this process, I see a lot outside of Vancouver.

If you look at the articles when Lehman was an active player they are not credited to any actual hockey writer. They are wire stories usually sent en masse to papers across Canada.The local paper would then take some liberties with the story to fit available space. So they do not reflect multiple opinions but one opinion repeated multiple times.

Since they are not credited they cannot be checked for reliability. No way of knowing if a writer has a habit of calling multiple goalies the greatest. The writer remains anonymous so his views cannot be checked over time.


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12-15-2012, 07:57 PM
  #212
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Interesting but

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Iain Fyffe wrote an article about the changing role of the rover in the PCHA. His conclusion was that the rover was initially an offensive position, but became a defensive position in 1918.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...?articleid=699
Interesting but overlooks how the PCHA sourced its players. PCHA sourced its players from the east - Taylor its star was Ontario born and was a rover befor the NHA/ eastern hockey dropped the position. By 1918 where would the PCHA source its rovers since the position was no longer in vogue in eastern hockey and western hockey had not matured. Star eastern players by then were not familiar with the position so by default the rover became a defensive position.


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12-15-2012, 11:12 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because it's not the league that persevered and ultimately evolved into the league that we hold in the highest regard on the planet (and have for a century). In a nutshell. But it's obviously not really that simple outside of the most macroscopic of views.
I'll be really disappointed if I read the rest of this thread and don't see someone telling you that this is a horrible argument.

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12-16-2012, 02:40 AM
  #214
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I'll be really disappointed if I read the rest of this thread and don't see someone telling you that this is a horrible argument.
Yeah, it'd be horrible if that's all I was going off of. But it's not that simple. Like I said.

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12-16-2012, 03:04 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, it'd be horrible if that's all I was going off of. But it's not that simple. Like I said.
Well this is worth exploring so I'd like to ask if you'll take it a bit further for us.

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12-16-2012, 03:15 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because it's not the league that persevered and ultimately evolved into the league that we hold in the highest regard on the planet (and have for a century). In a nutshell. But it's obviously not really that simple outside of the most macroscopic of views.
That's like saying if the Los Angeles Kings had to contract because of finances, their Stanley Cup should be worth less, because they couldn't manage to stay in the league

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12-16-2012, 05:55 AM
  #217
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That's like saying if the Los Angeles Kings had to contract because of finances, their Stanley Cup should be worth less, because they couldn't manage to stay in the league
Not really. Contracting from the NHL is different from contracting from the non-NHL.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Well this is worth exploring so I'd like to ask if you'll take it a bit further for us.
How many other people's posts do you honestly expect me to cut and paste from the past 2(+, including past incarnations) threads? A lot of what I've read has already been summarized or at least introduced, but between the rules, his competition (both locally and "nationally" - in the NHL), the war, and the additional merit I see in NHL achievement vs other league achievement, Lehman just doesn't stack up "overall" for me. If career value has any place in this kind of vote, I just don't and can't treat non-NHL careers as being "equivalent" to NHL careers, no matter how well one subjectively bridges the gap between them, or how "unusual" the PCHA/WCHL/NHA situation/relationship was.

The quotes from newspaper articles that we now have are interesting, but I wonder how we might compare that to judging the Globetrotters based on eye witness reports from their games against non-NBA teams, and trying to make the extension to their "equivalence" to an NBA team (we know that the Globetrotters, no matter how talented, barely competed with college teams, let alone NBA teams). After all, we're talking about a goalie who must have looked pretty exciting skating around playing the puck all over the place (and scoring, even). But at his best, he basically had 3 defensemen, wacky rules, and one of the best supporting cast rosters in the league preventing him from getting overly burned for it.

Lehman was particularly successful compared to everyone out there, and that deserves a good deal of credit. Heck, he's a Hall of Famer, so he's entitled to a great deal of benefit of the doubt from those who haven't seen him (like, all of us?). Bumping him up over guys like Hap Holmes and Tiny Thompson, though, or Hainsworth? I dunno, I just see too many reasons not to. There has to be a breaking point somewhere where Lehman's excellence vs his PCHA peers slots into the grand scheme, but then all of a sudden we're faced with a couple of more modern goalies with 100s of NHL games, 4 Cup rings, and a Vezina to their credit... on the same list for comparison... at the same stage...

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12-16-2012, 09:01 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not really. Contracting from the NHL is different from contracting from the non-NHL.
The point is the letters NHL are arbitrary. Why does it matter if they were PCHA, CCCP, or ABC if they were capable of winning a Stanley Cup against the NHL/NHA? After all, most people concern themselves with finding the best hockey players.

Quote:
How many other people's posts do you honestly expect me to cut and paste from the past 2(+, including past incarnations) threads? A lot of what I've read has already been summarized or at least introduced, but between the rules, his competition (both locally and "nationally" - in the NHL), the war, and the additional merit I see in NHL achievement vs other league achievement, Lehman just doesn't stack up "overall" for me. If career value has any place in this kind of vote, I just don't and can't treat non-NHL careers as being "equivalent" to NHL careers, no matter how well one subjectively bridges the gap between them, or how "unusual" the PCHA/WCHL/NHA situation/relationship was.

The quotes from newspaper articles that we now have are interesting, but I wonder how we might compare that to judging the Globetrotters based on eye witness reports from their games against non-NBA teams, and trying to make the extension to their "equivalence" to an NBA team (we know that the Globetrotters, no matter how talented, barely competed with college teams, let alone NBA teams). After all, we're talking about a goalie who must have looked pretty exciting skating around playing the puck all over the place (and scoring, even). But at his best, he basically had 3 defensemen, wacky rules, and one of the best supporting cast rosters in the league preventing him from getting overly burned for it.

Lehman was particularly successful compared to everyone out there, and that deserves a good deal of credit. Heck, he's a Hall of Famer, so he's entitled to a great deal of benefit of the doubt from those who haven't seen him (like, all of us?). Bumping him up over guys like Hap Holmes and Tiny Thompson, though, or Hainsworth? I dunno, I just see too many reasons not to. There has to be a breaking point somewhere where Lehman's excellence vs his PCHA peers slots into the grand scheme, but then all of a sudden we're faced with a couple of more modern goalies with 100s of NHL games, 4 Cup rings, and a Vezina to their credit... on the same list for comparison... at the same stage...
For how familiar you are with the arguments against Lehman buried in these two threads, I wish you were more familiar with the responses to these claims.

The only "subjective bridging of a gap" occurs because like in the 70s and 80s there were legitimately teams full of professional hockey players (outside the NHL) capable of beating the best NHLers. Personally, I think that's worth exploring rather than digging your heels in.

The bolded has been asked and responded to, but I'll raise my concern again. Wouldn't this be a stark difference between the PCHA and every other parallel like the AHL/WHA/KHL? How many globetrotters would be merited Hall of Famers? How many years were the globetrotters capable of beating the NBA champions in a best of 5 series?

My last post featured Art Ross, another Hall of Famer who was reffing the Stanley Cup at the time, suggesting the same thing the papers were. That Vancouver really was that good and if they weren't too roughed up they could win it all.

Please help me understand how this should yield to your comparison or any comparison of a rebel league that wasn't on this level.

Lehman was also judged as the best goalie in the early PCHA before he played in Vancouver.


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12-16-2012, 09:44 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
The point is the letters NHL are arbitrary. Why does it matter if they were PCHA, CCCP, or ABC if they were capable of winning a Stanley Cup against the NHL/NHA? After all, most people concern themselves with finding the best hockey players.



For how familiar you are with the arguments against Lehman buried in these two threads, I wish you were more familiar with the responses to these claims.

The only "subjective bridging of a gap" occurs because like in the 70s and 80s there were legitimately teams full of professional hockey players (outside the NHL) capable of beating the best NHLers. Personally, I think that's worth exploring rather than digging your heels in.

The bolded has been asked and responded to, but I'll raise my concern again. Wouldn't this be a stark difference between the PCHA and every other parallel like the AHL/WHA/KHL? How many globetrotters would be merited Hall of Famers? How many years were the globetrotters capable of beating the NBA champions in a best of 5 series? My last post featured Art Ross, another Hall of Famer who was reffing the Stanley Cup at the time, suggesting the same thing the papers were. That Vancouver really was that good and if they weren't too roughed up they could win it all.

Please help me understand how this should yield to your comparison or any comparison of a rebel league that wasn't on this level.

Lehman was also judged as the best goalie in the early PCHA before he played in Vancouver.
There was that Wilt Chamberlin guy.

In the late 1940s & early 1950s the Globetrotters certainly could have competed with the best of the NBA.

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12-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
There was that Wilt Chamberlin guy.

In the late 1940s & early 1950s the Globetrotters certainly could have competed with the best of the NBA.
Don't you think a generational talent chasing a payday to start his professional career for one season compares better to Gretzky signing in the WHA than HHOFers from the PCHA?

In the PCHA a generational talent like Cyclone Taylor played nine seasons and instead of possibly competing with the established league he actually did.


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12-16-2012, 10:13 AM
  #221
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Don't you think a generational talent chasing a payday to start his professional career for one season compares better to Gretzky signing in the WHA than the entirety of the PCHA?

In the PCHA a generational talent like Cyclone Taylor played nine seasons and instead of possibly competing with the established league he actually did.
Yes, I do agree.

But until the NBA smartened up and starting signing black players, the Globtrotters were as goood as the very best teams in the NBA.

My point was just that the Globetrotters were not a good example. One needs to know their history before coming to seemingly obvious conclusions. This is one reason I'm a listener rather than a participant in the pre-NHL era discussion.

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12-16-2012, 10:35 AM
  #222
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Yes, I do agree.

But until the NBA smartened up and starting signing black players, the Globtrotters were as goood as the very best teams in the NBA.

My point was just that the Globetrotters were not a good example. One needs to know their history before coming to seemingly obvious conclusions. This is one reason I'm a listener rather than a participant in the pre-NHL era discussion.
We're on the same page about the Globetrotters. I think we just walked through exactly why it doesn't fit so it seems we had a similar aim

I don't mean to belabor Lehman either, especially when you've been clear from the get go on him. I just wish he was torn down for his personal performances rather than the PCHA in general. Going 1-5 with the Stanley Cup on the line behind some serious talent is a lot more damning to me than the PCHA blanket criticisms.

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12-16-2012, 12:27 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
The point is the letters NHL are arbitrary. Why does it matter if they were PCHA, CCCP, or ABC if they were capable of winning a Stanley Cup against the NHL/NHA? After all, most people concern themselves with finding the best hockey players.
My concerns about measuring the merit of an entire league's history based on the success of one squad that was literally full of the best players in the league, and then another squad with talent horded by Patrick, in an environment where the rules differed East/West in a very short playoff structure have already been discussed.

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
For how familiar you are with the arguments against Lehman buried in these two threads, I wish you were more familiar with the responses to these claims.

The only "subjective bridging of a gap" occurs because like in the 70s and 80s there were legitimately teams full of professional hockey players (outside the NHL) capable of beating the best NHLers. Personally, I think that's worth exploring rather than digging your heels in.
I've explored it and formed an opinion. My heels are never "dug in" when I leave an opinion out there for discussion. I don't change opinion easily/quickly, but I don't know anyone around here who does, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
The bolded has been asked and responded to, but I'll raise my concern again. Wouldn't this be a stark difference between the PCHA and every other parallel like the AHL/WHA/KHL? How many globetrotters would be merited Hall of Famers? How many years were the globetrotters capable of beating the NBA champions in a best of 5 series?
Outside of the 40s/50s? Not many. But anyone unfamiliar with the NBA after those years likely still walks away from watching those games wondering how a team could ever beat them, and that's the point about frame of reference re: a lot of those quotes.


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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
My last post featured Art Ross, another Hall of Famer who was reffing the Stanley Cup at the time, suggesting the same thing the papers were. That Vancouver really was that good and if they weren't too roughed up they could win it all.

Please help me understand how this should yield to your comparison or any comparison of a rebel league that wasn't on this level.
First of all, I've never been trying to pass off the PCHA as a "joke" league, so I'm getting kind of annoyed at the creative vocabulary being attributed to me in these responses. Don't know about being a "rebel" league (like I guess you could say about the WHA of the 70s, but it isn't the origin of either league that interests me in the comparison), just not an "equivalent" league whose awards and accolades stand up at full face value under scrutiny of direct comparison of those in the NHA/NHL. IMO, of course.

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Lehman was also judged as the best goalie in the early PCHA before he played in Vancouver.
Which is fine. Explore who the competition was and what it "meant" (especially considering how small of sample sizes early seasons of <20 games represent), and I still feel that means relatively little compared to what some of the other names I've highlighted (Hainsworth, Thompson, Holmes) can boast in comparison when discussing their excellence balanced with "career value".

Basically, in terms of "merit of accomplishment", I see the PCHA comparing better with the OHA Sr. and/or OPHL (which re-stocked the NHA when the PCHA started nabbing NHA players) than the NHA/L, given that names like Howie Morenz, Clarence/Hap Day (among others who went on to at least moderate success in the NHL that can be found in that league during the early part of the century), and given that in the years leading up to the PCHA, the OHA/OPHL challenged regularly for the Stanley Cup, and had about as much success.

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12-16-2012, 12:35 PM
  #224
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There was that Wilt Chamberlin guy.

In the late 1940s & early 1950s the Globetrotters certainly could have competed with the best of the NBA.
Yeah, probably. But outside of that time frame (i.e. after the NBA opened up its recruiting a bit, as has been mentioned) people in the media still would have (and did) reported them to be among the most amazing things they'd ever seen in basketball, and yet they were beaten surprisingly often by college teams, let alone NBA teams. But yes, like the PCHA (and the OHA, and the NHA, and the WHA, etc), there are still Hall of Famers among them. I guess I take the effluence of media praise for Lehman during "peak"/"prime" with a bigger grain of salt than some othere here, but that's the extent of the motivation behind the Globetrotters comparison.

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12-16-2012, 02:15 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
My concerns about measuring the merit of an entire league's history based on the success of one squad that was literally full of the best players in the league, and then another squad with talent horded by Patrick, in an environment where the rules differed East/West in a very short playoff structure have already been discussed.



I've explored it and formed an opinion. My heels are never "dug in" when I leave an opinion out there for discussion. I don't change opinion easily/quickly, but I don't know anyone around here who does, honestly.
It was already shown that the Ottawa Senators dominated the NHA/NHL more than either the Millionaires or Metropolitans dominated the PCHA.

It's hard to take your posts on the matter seriously when you don't seem to be reading the evidence presented in the threads


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