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CBA / Lockout Discussion Thread (Update: player tested, owner approved)

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Old
12-15-2012, 10:38 AM
  #351
Benders Lindyhop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Let's not make this too personal.

(mod playing mod)

What about Make Whole money? The offer was at $211 million more recently than October and it was up to $300 in the last offer.
I don't remember the Oct offer that well, were the term limits included? Wasn't that one of the trade offs, along with the 10 year CBA for upping the make whole amount?

And of course, had the players taken the Oct offer, there would have been an 82 game system and they wouldn't have lost as much money as they are going to by losing an entire season.

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12-15-2012, 10:45 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
I don't remember the Oct offer that well, were the term limits included? Wasn't that one of the trade offs, along with the 10 year CBA for upping the make whole amount?

And of course, had the players taken the Oct offer, there would have been an 82 game system and they wouldn't have lost as much money as they are going to by losing an entire season.
Yes, 5-year term limits were included.

This was the NHL's explantion of the Oct proposal.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home

Details about the recent offers are becoming increasingly scarce, but Kevin Allen wrote in an article dated Dec 6th
Quote:
After three months of contentious negotiations, owners dropped their demands for changes to free agency and arbitration and then upped their make-whole provision offer to $300 million. In exchange, owners have asked for a 10-year contract, with an opt-out clause after eight seasons.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...posal/1750611/

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12-15-2012, 10:54 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Yes, 5-year term limits were included.

This was the NHL's explantion of the Oct proposal.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home

Details about the recent offers are becoming increasingly scarce, but Kevin Allen wrote in an article dated Dec 6th

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...posal/1750611/
So in short, they have lost $600M but wait, they gained the one year difference in UFA, the extra year added to the ELCs, which I dont know why being able to negotiate a new contract earlier was seen as a bad thing to them, and the ability to have salary arbitration like they had before (which, even in the proposal you posted from Oct, it was pretty damn close to the same anyway). Oh and they have gained the ability to have their own hotel rooms on the road.

Oh and the NHLPA wants a 8 year CBA with a 6 year opt out (Which makes it a 6 year CBA) now. They were offered a 6 year CBA with an available add on 7th year in the original proposal. And now its a 10 year CBA they are being offered and they dont want that (Why, I dont know).

Bravo.

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12-15-2012, 11:04 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
So in short, they have lost $600M but wait, they gained the one year difference in UFA, the extra year added to the ELCs, which I dont know why being able to negotiate a new contract earlier was seen as a bad thing to them, and the ability to have salary arbitration like they had before (which, even in the proposal you posted from Oct, it was pretty damn close to the same anyway). Oh and they have gained the ability to have their own hotel rooms on the road.

Oh and the NHLPA wants a 8 year CBA with a 6 year opt out (Which makes it a 6 year CBA) now. They were offered a 6 year CBA with an available add on 7th year in the original proposal. And now its a 10 year CBA they are being offered and they dont want that (Why, I dont know).

Bravo.
Thank you.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what they're going for. They don't want limited SPC's, which would probably be a tradeoff with the length of ELC's.

The PA feels that it's some level of progress.

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12-15-2012, 11:07 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Thank you.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what they're going for. They don't want limited SPC's, which would probably be a tradeoff with the length of ELC's.

The PA feels that it's some level of progress.
Limitation of SPC's does VERY little to the amount they get paid. Its a huge stepping stone for the league because it helps avoid situations like Philly trying to poach a star from a small market like Weber in Nashville. A 12 year contract compared to a 5 year contract with the variances that the NHL is proposing compared to the current variances, the money is the same damn amount. All it does is stop teams from adding 3-5 years of garbage money to circumvent the cap.

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12-15-2012, 11:41 AM
  #356
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I know I can be a huge Vinik fanboy at times, but this really is world class.
Avs fan here saying this is a really great move, and something I'd like to see more teams doing.

__________________
ďItís embarrassing. Iím embarrassed to be here right now. Itís not even funny. And itís just embarrassing, the way we, you know, the energy we have in the room and the way we approach practices and the way we approach this game. Itís not how youíre going to win any games in this league." - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, April 8 2013
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Old
12-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  #357
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Can we just start televising AHL games now and forget the NHL till they get their heads out of their butts???

Let them play their little court games in the corner and we can sit back and finally watch some hockey...no offense to the CHL, but I could use a step up to the next level...

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Old
12-16-2012, 10:12 AM
  #358
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Quote:
Darren DregerVerified‏@DarrenDreger

CBA term, contract length remain key issues,but, PA favors a $67.25 million cap,compliance buyouts and a cap on escrow.Huge hurdles for NHL.
Annnnd we are back to what looks like a hard cap, and two mechanisms to completely bypass a cap number at all. Awesome. Way to go NHLPA.

And its funny how screwed they are if this lawsuit ever comes to fruition. There are two things the NHL has to prove.

One is that they are not a monopoly (Other leagues such as the KHL and the Swiss and Sweedish leagues currently employ NHL players and a few players have even said they would gladly just stay over there). That proves the NHL has competition and players could just as easily go to one of these leagues.

The other is that the NHLPA has simply been negotiating in bad faith. This is easily proven by all the stalling tactics being used, presenting the same proposal 5 times. And tons of quoted players on Twitter as saying they just need to wait until January to get the best deal.

What is also funny is that they are clearly using decertification/DOI as a negotiating ploy which is deemed as illegal and this can be proven by the players once again outing themselves on Twitter by saying they are 100% behind Fehr. Which means he is doing what they want him to do, which in turn means they have no reason to have to follow through on decertification.

At this point its just sad how, either idiotic, or horribly misinformed the players in the NHLPA are. They are about to get run over by a freight train and dont even know it.

Unless this miraculously comes to an end in the next two weeks, we wont see hockey for awhile. But when we do, it will be through a CBA that is completely in favor of the owners with everything they want. Which could include 60% of HRR, contract regulations they are in favor of, and UFA rules that they choose.

Well played NHLPA. You have painted yourselves into a dark corner and the only way out now is to beg Bettman to let you accept the latest offer. That is of course if he feels generous enough to put it back on the table. And Im not so sure he will, and I cant say I would blame him if he didnt either.

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12-16-2012, 12:44 PM
  #359
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i copied this from another hockey board poster, but it perfectly sums up my thoughts w/r/t the lockout, and people that are strong pundits to either side:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOCKEY GUY
Any fan who argues that 57% is too much/too little is fine/is unsustainable is wrong considering that teams are private businesses with closed books and we don't know what the numbers are. Hence the absolute ****ing stupidity of 99% of all arguments re the lockout
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOCKEY GUY
I'm going to get all ****ing worked up about whether a buck is too much/not enough for a taco from the taco truck because I have a vague understanding of how much cows cost and corn just like, grows out of the ground...

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12-16-2012, 01:05 PM
  #360
Felonious Python
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Originally Posted by HOCKEY GUY View Post
I'm going to get all ****ing worked up about whether a buck is too much/not enough for a taco from the taco truck because I have a vague understanding of how much cows cost and corn just like, grows out of the ground...


F-word warning.

Appropriate with Ceremony's avatar.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-16-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 03:33 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by RussianGuyovich View Post
i copied this from another hockey board poster, but it perfectly sums up my thoughts w/r/t the lockout, and people that are strong pundits to either side:
That's cute. Except we do know the main number. 3.3B in revenue.

That's what matters in the HRR debate. How they get there doesn't in the grand scheme of things.

And with a lot of what is being proposed very public. There is plenty of information to understand where each side is coming from.

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12-16-2012, 06:26 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
That's cute. Except we do know the main number. 3.3B in revenue.

That's what matters in the HRR debate. How they get there doesn't in the grand scheme of things.

And with a lot of what is being proposed very public. There is plenty of information to understand where each side is coming from.
Haha no....no you really don't.

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12-16-2012, 07:03 PM
  #363
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Haha no....no you really don't.
Yeah you're right. It's all fabricated.

They are really fighting over pocket lint and bubble gum. What was I thinking.

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12-16-2012, 07:12 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Annnnd we are back to what looks like a hard cap, and two mechanisms to completely bypass a cap number at all. Awesome. Way to go NHLPA.

And its funny how screwed they are if this lawsuit ever comes to fruition. There are two things the NHL has to prove.

One is that they are not a monopoly (Other leagues such as the KHL and the Swiss and Sweedish leagues currently employ NHL players and a few players have even said they would gladly just stay over there). That proves the NHL has competition and players could just as easily go to one of these leagues.

The other is that the NHLPA has simply been negotiating in bad faith. This is easily proven by all the stalling tactics being used, presenting the same proposal 5 times. And tons of quoted players on Twitter as saying they just need to wait until January to get the best deal.

What is also funny is that they are clearly using decertification/DOI as a negotiating ploy which is deemed as illegal and this can be proven by the players once again outing themselves on Twitter by saying they are 100% behind Fehr. Which means he is doing what they want him to do, which in turn means they have no reason to have to follow through on decertification.

At this point its just sad how, either idiotic, or horribly misinformed the players in the NHLPA are. They are about to get run over by a freight train and dont even know it.

Unless this miraculously comes to an end in the next two weeks, we wont see hockey for awhile. But when we do, it will be through a CBA that is completely in favor of the owners with everything they want. Which could include 60% of HRR, contract regulations they are in favor of, and UFA rules that they choose.

Well played NHLPA. You have painted yourselves into a dark corner and the only way out now is to beg Bettman to let you accept the latest offer. That is of course if he feels generous enough to put it back on the table. And Im not so sure he will, and I cant say I would blame him if he didnt either.
source?

You also know that the PA allows it's members to attend negotiations, right? How could they all stay silent if the PA said something untrue?

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12-16-2012, 08:01 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
source?

You also know that the PA allows it's members to attend negotiations, right? How could they all stay silent if the PA said something untrue?
Source for what exactly?

And players are either busy playing in other leagues, busy training, busy taking this time to be with family, etc, or just don't care.

But you won't see anyone speak up because they will be chastised. Just like Hamrlik was when he did speak up. And now it's like a bystander effect in a sense. Everyone is waiting for someone else to speak up for them.

I liken it to this; if there are 5 people behind a wall and one runs out and gets shot dead, what do you think the other 4 are going to do?

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12-16-2012, 11:27 PM
  #366
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You should totally be managing a team.

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12-17-2012, 05:28 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Source for what exactly?

And players are either busy playing in other leagues, busy training, busy taking this time to be with family, etc, or just don't care.

But you won't see anyone speak up because they will be chastised. Just like Hamrlik was when he did speak up. And now it's like a bystander effect in a sense. Everyone is waiting for someone else to speak up for them.

I liken it to this; if there are 5 people behind a wall and one runs out and gets shot dead, what do you think the other 4 are going to do?
Any of it.

and to the players being in the room, if they're in the room and the PA is misrepresenting things, then why are they not saying it to each other privately?

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12-17-2012, 05:52 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
You should totally be managing a team.
So still nothing to contribute but what you think are cute little quips. Got it. Color me surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Any of it.

and to the players being in the room, if they're in the room and the PA is misrepresenting things, then why are they not saying it to each other privately?
As for a source, everything I said was released as part of the NHLs legal claim. And observation and common sense applied to it.

Only a certain amount of players have actually been involved in this process. Most probably have no idea what's going on or to a great extent, not exactly what is going on. And who knows if players are speaking negatively about it in private.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-17-2012 at 07:19 AM. Reason: merged
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12-17-2012, 07:26 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
So still nothing to contribute but what you think are cute little quips. Got it. Color me surprised.



As for a source, everything I said was released as part of the NHLs legal claim. And observation and common sense applied to it.

Only a certain amount of players have actually been involved in this process. Most probably have no idea what's going on or to a great extent, not exactly what is going on. And who knows if players are speaking negatively about it in private.
but if you don't know if people are talking privately, and you also claimed that they're waiting for someone to speak up, how would you know this?

I don't doubt there are more Roman Hamrliks but I also don't doubt there are more Scott Hartnells. (to clarify: Hamrlik did not say that Fehr was misrepresenting what was going on, but that he was disgusted by the pace of negotiations and that the latest NHL offer (at that time) should go to a vote)


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-17-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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12-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Yeah you're right. It's all fabricated.

They are really fighting over pocket lint and bubble gum. What was I thinking.
You have zero clue as to what is being fought about, except what has been released publicly, which is all political posturing by both sides to get public sentiment. You only know what both sides want you to know.

And to state that you are aware of all the intricacies of this private negotiation makes me do a kind of deep laugh at you, a guffaw if you will.

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12-17-2012, 10:44 AM
  #371
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Anyone think that the PA might have accepted the last league offer if Bettman wasn't Bettman?

I don't know what is said, but if the owners make it clear that they cannot make money at less than x%, and show the numbers to the appropriate people who can adequately confirm/deny that message then the fans and players might start to understand.

The problem is how few trust the source.

I know the idea will be brushed off as another anti-Bettman jab by some, but think about this, fans don't really benefit either way if Bettman is gone or not, yet the pervasive thinking is that he's done the game wrong.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-17-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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12-17-2012, 08:58 PM
  #372
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...antitrust_law/

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12-18-2012, 08:54 AM
  #373
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I just read an article about how the NHL could void all contracts, any truth to that?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-all-contracts

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12-18-2012, 09:34 AM
  #374
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I just read an article about how the NHL could void all contracts, any truth to that?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-all-contracts
There is truth to that.

The CBA is what protects the league from being sued over normally unlawful things, such as a salary cap, draft, restricted free agency, etc.


Roy MacGregor article on branding company comparing lockout to BP spill.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6500907/


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-18-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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12-18-2012, 05:14 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by russianguyovich View Post
you have zero clue as to what is being fought about, except what has been released publicly, which is all political posturing by both sides to get public sentiment. You only know what both sides want you to know.

And to state that you are aware of all the intricacies of this private negotiation makes me do a kind of deep laugh at you, a guffaw if you will.
no way man the players association is all wrong stupid idiots

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