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Best Playmaker: Crosby vs. Forsberg vs. Jagr

View Poll Results: Who's the best playmaker?
Crosby 78 33.62%
Forsberg 67 28.88%
Jagr 87 37.50%
Voters: 232. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:03 PM
  #26
tony d
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Forsberg

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:12 PM
  #27
Nihiliste
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Playmaking is the one offensive area of the game where I give a marginal edge to Forsberg over Jagr (APG, APG adjusted for scoring levels and peak years, PP points/60 - most of which were assists, and of course watching them play above all)

Not sure where Crosby belongs yet.

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:49 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
it would be nice to be on the downside of a career and still be top 5 in assists for thornton and h.sedin
How about Jagr who was 34 and 35 respectively (clearly on the downside of his career) in 2005-06 and 2006-07 and still have 69 assists (3rd) and 66 (4th) respectively in those seasons.

When any of Crosby, Thornton and Sedin can get over 65 assists in the later stages of their careers and end up top 5, then you can come talk to me.

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:59 PM
  #29
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Probably Jagr. His assists per game stat is skewed due to how long he has been playing.

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Old
12-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Exactly through 7 seasons.

We all know what playing longer does do your per game averages.

In fact we don't need to look further than Jagr himself. In his first 806 games (the full 11 seasons he played in Pittsburgh) he had 640 assists which is an APG of 0.79. This was of course his prime.

His APG dropped as he continued to play. If by the time Crosby has played over 1000 games and his APG is still higher than Jagr's then I will say he's pretty good.
You don't understand, the list is every NHL player's assists per game through 7 seasons. So Jagr and Forsberg did not rack up assists as well as Crosby did through their first 7 seasons. As I said in the post, Jagr's longevity is certainly impressive and a point in his favour, but there is definitely an argument for Crosby, given how he has produced so far in his career in a generally lower scoring era.

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Old
12-16-2012, 02:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You don't understand, the list is every NHL player's assists per game through 7 seasons. So Jagr and Forsberg did not rack up assists as well as Crosby did through their first 7 seasons. As I said in the post, Jagr's longevity is certainly impressive and a point in his favour, but there is definitely an argument for Crosby, given how he has produced so far in his career in a generally lower scoring era.
Most of Jagr's best assists seasons came when scoring was lower than it is even now.

1997-98, Jagr 67 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

1998-99, Jagr 83 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

1999-00, Jagr 54 assists (in just 63 games) still finising 3rd overall (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

2000-01, Jagr 69 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Most of Jagr's best assists seasons came when scoring was lower than it is even now.

1997-98, Jagr 67 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

1998-99, Jagr 83 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

1999-00, Jagr 54 assists (in just 63 games) still finising 3rd overall (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).

2000-01, Jagr 69 assists to lead the league (lower scoring than at any time post-lockout).
Um... Okay? I'm not sure what your point is, my post was not about peaks it was about performance through first 7 seasons in the NHL. In Jagr's case, that is from 1990-1991 to 1996-1997. I'm not sure what you're finding so hard to understand about this.

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You don't understand, the list is every NHL player's assists per game through 7 seasons. So Jagr and Forsberg did not rack up assists as well as Crosby did through their first 7 seasons. As I said in the post, Jagr's longevity is certainly impressive and a point in his favour, but there is definitely an argument for Crosby, given how he has produced so far in his career in a generally lower scoring era.
Jagr also played on the second line in six of his first seven seasons, and only saw significant PP time with Lemieux in one season. Crosby has played primarily on the first line when healthy and has played on the first PP unit with Malkin.

So if we take years of Jagr's that compare to Crosby's situation with Malkin (playing on one of two high scoring lines, and a stacked 1st PP unit), we can take 1995-96 a the only comparable.

Crosby doesn't do well against that season of Jagr's.

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Old
12-16-2012, 04:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Jagr also played on the second line in six of his first seven seasons, and only saw significant PP time with Lemieux in one season. Crosby has played primarily on the first line when healthy and has played on the first PP unit with Malkin.

So if we take years of Jagr's that compare to Crosby's situation with Malkin (playing on one of two high scoring lines, and a stacked 1st PP unit), we can take 1995-96 a the only comparable.

Crosby doesn't do well against that season of Jagr's.
That's bias if I've ever heard it. "Unfortunately, the only comparison I can use is Jagr's all-time highest scoring season."

Look, all I'm saying is that Crosby in his first 7 seasons was a better playmaker than both Jagr and Forsberg. Prime Jagr was one of the most dominant offensive players in the history of hockey, and Crosby can only hope that he one day reaches Jagr's levels of dominance. However, none of that changes the fact that Crosby was a better playmaker through 7 years of NHL hockey than Jagr was. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's definitely Crosby, there are certainly some great arguments in Jagr's favour, but there is also reason to choose Crosby.

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Old
12-16-2012, 05:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
That's bias if I've ever heard it. "Unfortunately, the only comparison I can use is Jagr's all-time highest scoring season."

Look, all I'm saying is that Crosby in his first 7 seasons was a better playmaker than both Jagr and Forsberg. Prime Jagr was one of the most dominant offensive players in the history of hockey, and Crosby can only hope that he one day reaches Jagr's levels of dominance. However, none of that changes the fact that Crosby was a better playmaker through 7 years of NHL hockey than Jagr was. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's definitely Crosby, there are certainly some great arguments in Jagr's favour, but there is also reason to choose Crosby.
The thing is, Jagr was a perfectly capable playmaker. A lack of opportunity because he was being played with weaker linemates due to the Penguins having one of if not the most talented player ever on their top line playing with a line he had established chemistry with. Jagr was the finisher, he had no finisher to pass to. Crosby has had finishers, even if they're only guys like Chris Kunitz. Kunitz has better numbers than a Shawn McEachern or Troy Loney/Bob Errey that Jagr was playing with in his early days. And in the middle? Jagr had a broken down version of Bryan Trottier, rebuilt as a third-line center. In 1992-93, Jagr was moved to the second line and given Ron Francis as a center. Still no goal scoring from his linemates, but at least it was an offensive environment. He posted 99 points that year and the following. In 1994-95, Lemieux didn't play, and Jagr as you know won the scoring title. Were it not for Lemieux, Jagr wins again in 1996. In 96-97, Jagr scored 95 points in 63 games on the second line. Were Lemieux not in the league and Jagr healthy ("what would it be healthy" always being the assumption in arguments related to Lindros, Kariya, or Crosby) then Jagr wins a (hypothetical) third-straight Art Ross.

Crosby would have won the last two if he were healthy and kept his pace up, matching Jagr's hypothetical three. But a young Jagr also had playoff heroics where he had to carry the Pens with Lemieux out of the lineup. Crosby was carried to the Finals and then to the Cup by Malkin. He was arguably outplayed by Fleury as well.

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:15 PM
  #36
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They're all great playmakers. One difference is that Jagr had some great assist seasons while also being an elite goal-scorer, something Forsberg didn't do and Crosby hasn't yet done.

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Old
12-16-2012, 06:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Crosby would have won the last two if he were healthy and kept his pace up, matching Jagr's hypothetical three. But a young Jagr also had playoff heroics where he had to carry the Pens with Lemieux out of the lineup. Crosby was carried to the Finals and then to the Cup by Malkin. He was arguably outplayed by Fleury as well.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you never actually watched that Cup run. The idea that Malkin "carried" Crosby to the Finals is beyond crazy. The amount of revisionist history that has sprung up, from all the Crosby-haters, is so off-base. The guy posted 31 points, played in every situation, killed penalties, took hundreds of draws (350 more than Malkin), played against the other team's best defensive match-ups, and took the team on his back in the first two series. If he had won the Conn Smythe, only Crosby's most vehement detractors would have called "foul".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Put Jagr and Forsberg in post-lockout and I'm certain they would outproduce Crosby. See what I did there?
I highly doubt it. Jagr, sure. Forsberg? No.


Last edited by nowhereman: 12-16-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 06:53 PM
  #38
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Jagr, Jaromir

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Old
12-16-2012, 07:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you never actually watched that Cup run. The idea that Malkin "carried" Crosby to the Finals is beyond crazy. The amount of revisionist history that has sprung up, from all the Crosby-haters, is so off-base. The guy posted 31 points, played in every situation, killed penalties, took hundreds of draws (350 more than Malkin), played against the other team's best defensive match-ups, and took the team on his back in the first two series. If he had won the Conn Smythe, only Crosby's most vehement detractors would have called "foul".


I highly doubt it. Jagr, sure. Forsberg? No.
Hahaha why? Can you please give me a good reason for why you think Forsberg wouldnt excel in todays era?

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12-16-2012, 07:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Trillmike View Post
Probably Jagr. His assists per game stat is skewed due to how long he has been playing.
Even during his peak years his numbers are marginally behind (almost identical to) Peter Forsberg's APG rate, despite more ice time.

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12-16-2012, 07:34 PM
  #41
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Jagr

Crosby and Forsberg are close.

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12-16-2012, 07:49 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Even during his peak years his numbers are marginally behind (almost identical to) Peter Forsberg's APG rate, despite more ice time.
Forsberg was a pass first player playing with great linemates.

Taking out 1995-96 for both players (Jagr had 87 assists and Forsberg had 86), we are left with Jagr's 1998-99 season when he had 83 assists (16 more than runner-up Forsberg) playing with Hrdina and Kip Miller all season long.

Forsberg's best assists season is 2002-03 when he had 77 assists playing with Hejduk among others who scored 50 goals.

APG is a very good tool to use but can only skew numbers a bit, especially when a certain player plays far less games than another one.

Crosby played 22 games last year and had 29 assists, very good stats but it means very little to me as this was very short period of time.

Forsberg similarly had 37 assists in 39 games back in 2003-04 and then 13 assists in just 9 games in 2007-08.

Of course their APG will be higher but the more you play, the harder it is to maintain such high numbers.

BTW in those seasons I named for both players, it was Sakic and Malkin that carried those teams, not Forsberg and Crosby.

Other than leading the league in assists 3 times, Jagr was also top 3 another 4 times.

That's 7 times in his career where he was top 3 or better including 2 of his last 3 seasons in the NHL.

As for stretches of games (which is what Forsberg and Crosby are being credited for since they only played less 40 games in some of their best APG seasons), Jagr had better 40 games stretches.

In 1999-00 Jagr had 39 assists in his first 39 games.

In 2000-01 Jagr had 53 assists in his last 45 games.

Those are better stretches than both Forsberg and Crosby ever enjoyed and for longer periods of time.

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12-16-2012, 08:55 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Forsberg was a pass first player playing with great linemates.

Taking out 1995-96 for both players (Jagr had 87 assists and Forsberg had 86), we are left with Jagr's 1998-99 season when he had 83 assists (16 more than runner-up Forsberg) playing with Hrdina and Kip Miller all season long.

Forsberg's best assists season is 2002-03 when he had 77 assists playing with Hejduk among others who scored 50 goals.

APG is a very good tool to use but can only skew numbers a bit, especially when a certain player plays far less games than another one.

Crosby played 22 games last year and had 29 assists, very good stats but it means very little to me as this was very short period of time.

Forsberg similarly had 37 assists in 39 games back in 2003-04 and then 13 assists in just 9 games in 2007-08.

Of course their APG will be higher but the more you play, the harder it is to maintain such high numbers.

BTW in those seasons I named for both players, it was Sakic and Malkin that carried those teams, not Forsberg and Crosby.

Other than leading the league in assists 3 times, Jagr was also top 3 another 4 times.

That's 7 times in his career where he was top 3 or better including 2 of his last 3 seasons in the NHL.

As for stretches of games (which is what Forsberg and Crosby are being credited for since they only played less 40 games in some of their best APG seasons), Jagr had better 40 games stretches.

In 1999-00 Jagr had 39 assists in his first 39 games.

In 2000-01 Jagr had 53 assists in his last 45 games.

Those are better stretches than both Forsberg and Crosby ever enjoyed and for longer periods of time.
God, stop it already

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Old
12-16-2012, 09:28 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
God, stop it already
Was any of what I said wrong or nonfactual?

Stop what already? Showing just how overrated Crosby and Forsberg are?

Jagr was a better playmaker than both. Crosby's APG means nothing to me since he's only played 434 games over 7 seasons which is an average of 62 games with only 63 games played over his last 2 seasons.

If you want to start talking their first 7 seasons, then let's do it.

Jagr's first 7 seasons are 1990-91 to 1997-98, Jagr had 2 Art Ross trophies, a 2nd place finish in scoring, a 5th place finish (2nd in PPG) 2 overall Hart finalist finishes and another 4th place finish and most importantly 2 Stanley Cups.

In Crosby's first 7 seasons, he has 1 Art Ross, 2 3rd place finishes a 6th place, 1 Hart, 1 Perason, another time where he was a Hart finalist, 1 Richard and 1 Stanley Cup.

For all of his head start, Crosby is really not that much ahead of Jagr all things considered in their first 7 seasons.

BTW it was what Jagr did between his 8th and 11th seasons that really distanced him from the rest of the pack. Let's see what Crosby does in the next 3-5 seasons.


Last edited by livewell68: 12-16-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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12-16-2012, 10:45 PM
  #45
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Forsberg was a heck of a playmaker in his prime.

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12-17-2012, 12:20 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
Hahaha why? Can you please give me a good reason for why you think Forsberg wouldnt excel in todays era?
I'm not saying he wouldn't excel. Just that he's not enough of a goalscorer to outscore a guy like Crosby, who is an elite playmaker and an elite goalscorer. Crosby had more goals in 41 games in 10-11, than Forsberg had in any single season in his career.

Jagr, I think, would be neck and neck with Crosby, year after year.

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12-17-2012, 01:51 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Jagr, I think, would be neck and neck with Crosby, year after year.
Maybe if they were going feet first and Jagr was having an off year.
Jagr would beat Crosby like a rented mule, then look over his shoulder and yell at him to "get up... wimp."

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12-17-2012, 03:36 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bure All Day View Post
Put Crosby in the exact same time frame as Jagr, and I'm certain he would outproduce him.

Crosby is just the biggest try-hard to ever play the game... always will be the best when he's on his game
How would Crosby's numbers improve in the DPE? O.o

"best when he's on his game" ...
You could say that about Alex Kovalev (who when "on his game" was better than anyone currently playing...just it was very very rare ). Crosby is usually "on his game" when he's healthy. Problem is, that he hasn't been very healthy.

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12-17-2012, 05:06 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Maybe if they were going feet first and Jagr was having an off year.
Jagr would beat Crosby like a rented mule, then look over his shoulder and yell at him to "get up... wimp."
Source?

I'm not saying that Crosby is better, but give me a break. "Rented mule"?

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12-17-2012, 08:11 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I feel sorry for you. I bet you think the NHL started in 2005 don't you?

Thornton, Crosby and Sedin are not top 10 playmakers and outside of Crosby who can still pick up his pace, Sedin and Thornton have already peaked and are on the downsides of their careers.

It's not called living in the past. It's called having a perspective on the history of the NHL.

Give players of the past the same kind of equipment and training methods as today's players and I think the results for the players in the past might be even more impressive.

Howe and Lafleur are most definitely better playmakers than any of the current set of NHL players. Howe was a Right Wing that led the league in assits countless times. Lafleur did the same playing an era with guys like Dionne, Trottier, Orr, Clarke.

Jagr was another winger that led the league in assists countless times. Find me a Winger nowadays that can claim to the be the league's best playmaker.

I'll say this, if Jagr was still in his prime (not this 40 year old version of him), he'd be skating circles around the rest of the NHL. He was Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby into one offensively.

If you think Crosby and Malkin are great puck possession players, then just go look at Jagr. If you think Ovechkin is an explosive skater with a great shot, have a look at Jagr's clips from his glory days.

As for stickhandling and passing, forget about it.

You show one video and claim it proves how Jagr is better than Crosby...

Crosby could easily have made the same play





Talk about puck control, there it is...

Obviously you feel some divine power commanding you to stand up for Jagr and praise his greatness so go for it

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