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Old
12-14-2012, 02:26 AM
  #351
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12-14-2012, 01:56 PM
  #352
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America is ****ing ****ed.

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12-14-2012, 02:14 PM
  #353
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Jeez...a 20 year old with 2-4 guns. Gun control does not help how?

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12-14-2012, 03:29 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Jeez...a 20 year old with 2-4 guns. Gun control does not help how?
He was 24, although initially he was reported to be 20. I don't think gun control is the real issue here, and I think it misses the point. Drugs are illegal too, which hasn't stopped people from buying them. The details aren't all out yet, but it sounds like it was handguns like Glock that were involved, not assault rifles, likely legally acquired.

The real question I have is, 'were there any warning signs from the murderer, and if so, how were they overlooked?'

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12-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
He was 24, although initially he was reported to be 20. I don't think gun control is the real issue here, and I think it misses the point. Drugs are illegal too, which hasn't stopped people from buying them.
If you look at the raw numbers, everything you have said here is wrong. Netherlands have legalized but kept a strict watch on drugs, they have a lower abuse rate than the United States. Switzerland has a stronger gun control policy than the United States, yet violent crime and murders are more commonplace in America.

A brief appeal to hard facts show that a more liberal policy on both have helped in both countries compared to the US. Maybe not significantly, but lives can be spared and I am for that.

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12-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #356
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This is all I'll say on the issue & is my own pov that won't change.

While I believe Gun Control should be harder in the US..... Instead of being so concerned who can & who can't get guns maybe some of that time & effort should be used in helping the mentally unstable who time & time again are committing these evil plots. If someone can be so evil they will commit their business gun or not.

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12-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
This is all I'll say on the issue & is my own pov that won't change.

While I believe Gun Control should be harder in the US..... Instead of being so concerned who can & who can't get guns maybe some of that time & effort should be used in helping the mentally unstable who time & time again are committing these evil plots. If someone can be so evil they will commit their business gun or not.
I also believe in this.

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12-14-2012, 10:32 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
This is all I'll say on the issue & is my own pov that won't change.

While I believe Gun Control should be harder in the US..... Instead of being so concerned who can & who can't get guns maybe some of that time & effort should be used in helping the mentally unstable who time & time again are committing these evil plots. If someone can be so evil they will commit their business gun or not.
Well, the problem is that mentally unstable people don't tend to walk around with MENTALLY UNSTABLE stamped on their foreheads. The guy who shot up the theatre in Colorado at the Batman premiere had presented as pretty much completely normal as far as anyone can tell...right up until the time he shot up a theatre. As long as the US is determined to arm everyone who isn't drooling uncontrollably or screaming "DEATH TO AMERICAN INFIDELS!!!" at the top of their lungs, this is what they get. If they're married to this Right to Bear Arms colonial anachronism and refuse to examine if logically from a cost/benefit perspective, then yeah, sometimes a school gets shot up. Or a theatre. Or a shopping mall. Or whatever. Horrible carnage like what took place today is the regular price they're willing to pay. It's sad, it's a shame, it's an utterly stupid waste of innocent human lives, and it's the inevitable consequence. I've often wondered when the tipping point is going to be where Americans finally stop wrapping themselves in rhetoric when it comes to their precious, precious guns and take an honest, unflinching look at them from a safety perspective. You know, actually sit down and say: How many people died from these things last year? How often did privately owned weapons actually prevent crime or save lives? What are the numbers, and do they actually reflect what we want to believe about gun ownership? Now, I just don't think they ever will. Every time something like this happens, everyone down there feels terrible for the victims, prays for a bit, they have a big outpouring of grief...and then they don't do a bloody thing. Because every time, someone eventually pipes up with: "How can we prevent these mass shootings?" And every time, they look at all the data gathered on the subject. And every time, the data says quite clearly: more guns = more shootings + more deaths. The logical conclusion is and has always been: get rid of the guns. And they just won't wrap their heads around that. They just can't go there. They've been brainwashed from birth to believe that Guns Are Good, and Guns Help Me Protect My Family And My Property, and I Am Safer With A Gun Than Without One, and other such complete *********, and they just won't grow up and let go of their illusions. It's like Linus sitting in the pumpkin patch waiting for the Great Pumpkin to show up. *helpless shrug* Just glad I'm Canadian.

As for the "If someone can be so evil they will commit their business gun or not" thing, I'm sorry but that's complete ********. Canada and the US are so culturally similar that crime data is comparable across borders. Take a US study, divide by ten, and that usually gives you the Canadian numbers. Canadian study? Multiply by ten. Same thing. Except for two areas: murders and gun violence. We have roughly the same percentage of evil people fomenting evil plots up here as Americans do down there. Same for Europe. How often do mass killings happen in Canada or Great Britain as opposed to the US? Look at the numbers. Giving evil people the means to kill lots and lots of innocents very quickly and conveniently is the folly confronting the US.

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12-14-2012, 11:04 PM
  #359
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Sorry PC, but you're completely off the base.

First, Canada and USA as a whole aren't all that similar. The ethnic makeup and in particular income disparities differ quite a bit. Poverty alone is not a key driver of violence; income inequality and perception thereof is. It's why many Latin Americans are quite violent while there are many poorer countries out there that have criminality levels in line with Europe or North America. USA has not only a lot of ethnic friction (mainly black-white) but economic differences are pronounced and reinforced on a daily basis; "being poor most likely makes you a criminal, which makes you a *******". I don't even need to elaborate on their perspectives on religion and constitutional rights.

Second, correlation doesn't equal causation. Gun laws are generally very stingy in Latin America and hard to acquire legally. But they happen to top the charts in terms of homicides; Eastern Europe is increasingly similar in that aspect. As a completely opposite example, Switzerland has a vibrant gun culture and can keep heavy caliber guns at home. Yet they report some of the lowest crime rates in the world, including homicide (smaller than Canada).

The association of gun culture among the Swiss is different than the American concept, though. Switzerland prizes guns as a matter of national defence. On the other hand, many Americans associate the right to bear guns with "defending themselves against criminals" or "against the government ("tyranny")". It creates a lot more friction among American themselves.

Third, even if you were to impose stricter gun control in the USA... so what? Even ignoring the nightmare it would be to convince 50 states to tighten and standardize their gun policy, there are hundreds of millions of guns already circulating the country - not to mention a porous Mexican border, a laxer Canadian one and a vast seaboard. Smuggling guns would be easy and buying second handed, even simpler. Anyone who would want guns wouldn't have trouble getting them. And of course it would greatly antagonize the majority of the population, even Democrat voters, and likely prompt popular action. You can't kill America's love for guns, it's been ingrained in their collective culture before George Washington was even a leader. It would be like convincing Canadians to stop skating. Just no.

What Americans can do to prevent Columbine from repeating itself for the nth time is to simply be kinder to those around them. If more people cared to share love and compassion with their family and neighbours, there would be less alienated people and therefore less people prone to do completely bat**** crazy things.

And that's another point - those shooters aren't "evil". Dubbing them that way is the worst thing you can possibly do to prevent future tragedies because it assumes that they were hopeless from the moment they were born which couldn't be farther from the truth. Most people would be considered "evil" if placed in different circumstances. A little empathy goes a very long way.

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12-14-2012, 11:06 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Well, the problem is that mentally unstable people don't tend to walk around with MENTALLY UNSTABLE stamped on their foreheads. The guy who shot up the theatre in Colorado at the Batman premiere had presented as pretty much completely normal as far as anyone can tell...right up until the time he shot up a theatre. As long as the US is determined to arm everyone who isn't drooling uncontrollably or screaming "DEATH TO AMERICAN INFIDELS!!!" at the top of their lungs, this is what they get. If they're married to this Right to Bear Arms colonial anachronism and refuse to examine if logically from a cost/benefit perspective, then yeah, sometimes a school gets shot up. Or a theatre. Or a shopping mall. Or whatever. Horrible carnage like what took place today is the regular price they're willing to pay. It's sad, it's a shame, it's an utterly stupid waste of innocent human lives, and it's the inevitable consequence. I've often wondered when the tipping point is going to be where Americans finally stop wrapping themselves in rhetoric when it comes to their precious, precious guns and take an honest, unflinching look at them from a safety perspective. You know, actually sit down and say: How many people died from these things last year? How often did privately owned weapons actually prevent crime or save lives? What are the numbers, and do they actually reflect what we want to believe about gun ownership? Now, I just don't think they ever will. Every time something like this happens, everyone down there feels terrible for the victims, prays for a bit, they have a big outpouring of grief...and then they don't do a bloody thing. Because every time, someone eventually pipes up with: "How can we prevent these mass shootings?" And every time, they look at all the data gathered on the subject. And every time, the data says quite clearly: more guns = more shootings + more deaths. The logical conclusion is and has always been: get rid of the guns. And they just won't wrap their heads around that. They just can't go there. They've been brainwashed from birth to believe that Guns Are Good, and Guns Help Me Protect My Family And My Property, and I Am Safer With A Gun Than Without One, and other such complete *********, and they just won't grow up and let go of their illusions. It's like Linus sitting in the pumpkin patch waiting for the Great Pumpkin to show up. *helpless shrug* Just glad I'm Canadian.

As for the "If someone can be so evil they will commit their business gun or not" thing, I'm sorry but that's complete ********. Canada and the US are so culturally similar that crime data is comparable across borders. Take a US study, divide by ten, and that usually gives you the Canadian numbers. Canadian study? Multiply by ten. Same thing. Except for two areas: murders and gun violence. We have roughly the same percentage of evil people fomenting evil plots up here as Americans do down there. Same for Europe. How often do mass killings happen in Canada or Great Britain as opposed to the US? Look at the numbers. Giving evil people the means to kill lots and lots of innocents very quickly and conveniently is the folly confronting the US.
I actually don't mind people owning a gun for safety or sport even though no one in my family does, I have a few friends that do.

What is bizarre to me is the people that treat them like they AREN'T GUNS. That difference between Canada and the US is the biggest difference to me.

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12-15-2012, 12:19 AM
  #361
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Second, correlation doesn't equal causation. Gun laws are generally very stingy in Latin America and hard to acquire legally. But they happen to top the charts in terms of homicides; Eastern Europe is increasingly similar in that aspect. As a completely opposite example, Switzerland has a vibrant gun culture and can keep heavy caliber guns at home. Yet they report some of the lowest crime rates in the world, including homicide (smaller than Canada).
It's pretty sad when places run by drug cartels and with little to no effective policing are about the only ones that make the US look better with regards to gun violence. Also Eastern Europe isn't similar to Latin America at all, as Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States, etc. all have similar firearms homicide rates to Canada and Western Europe.

And the Swiss example isn't really apt. There are many restrictions on gun ownership there (no full auto, strict and low limits on the amount of ammo you can have, few handguns, and virtually no carrying) make it extremely dissimilar to the US. Switzerland's gun laws are more similar to Canada's or Germany's than they are to the US's.

Though your points about the social roots of violence are important to remember.

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12-15-2012, 02:36 AM
  #362
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Sorry PC, but you're completely off the base.

First, Canada and USA as a whole aren't all that similar. The ethnic makeup and in particular income disparities differ quite a bit. Poverty alone is not a key driver of violence; income inequality and perception thereof is. It's why many Latin Americans are quite violent while there are many poorer countries out there that have criminality levels in line with Europe or North America. USA has not only a lot of ethnic friction (mainly black-white) but economic differences are pronounced and reinforced on a daily basis; "being poor most likely makes you a criminal, which makes you a *******". I don't even need to elaborate on their perspectives on religion and constitutional rights.
The US and Canada actually are quite similar. Religion, income level, systems of government, crime data (all of which you actually can look up pretty easily if you want)...all are very comparable. Both former British colonies, both highly involved with each other. There are specific racial differences between the populations but the relevant studies I mentioned are easily available. Just google them or head to wikipedia.

Quote:
Second, correlation doesn't equal causation. Gun laws are generally very stingy in Latin America and hard to acquire legally. But they happen to top the charts in terms of homicides; Eastern Europe is increasingly similar in that aspect. As a completely opposite example, Switzerland has a vibrant gun culture and can keep heavy caliber guns at home. Yet they report some of the lowest crime rates in the world, including homicide (smaller than Canada).
Can't speak to Latin America, but Switzerland is the one exception to the rule concerning lax gun laws. The difference there is that the Swiss are all required to serve in the military and receive proper training in the use and storage of firearms. It's the one place in Europe that American gun nuts like to cite as having lots of guns but not a lot of homicides.

Quote:
The association of gun culture among the Swiss is different than the American concept, though. Switzerland prizes guns as a matter of national defence. On the other hand, many Americans associate the right to bear guns with "defending themselves against criminals" or "against the government ("tyranny")". It creates a lot more friction among American themselves.
See above. And wasn't the second amendment to the US Constitution meant to provide for all citizens to form a militia to protect against the British Empire invading when drafted? Uh...have to look that one up, but I'm pretty sure the UK cancelled the plans to reconquer the rebelling colonies.

Quote:
Third, even if you were to impose stricter gun control in the USA... so what? Even ignoring the nightmare it would be to convince 50 states to tighten and standardize their gun policy, there are hundreds of millions of guns already circulating the country - not to mention a porous Mexican border, a laxer Canadian one and a vast seaboard. Smuggling guns would be easy and buying second handed, even simpler. Anyone who would want guns wouldn't have trouble getting them. And of course it would greatly antagonize the majority of the population, even Democrat voters, and likely prompt popular action. You can't kill America's love for guns, it's been ingrained in their collective culture before George Washington was even a leader. It would be like convincing Canadians to stop skating. Just no.
Okay, I need a shovel. It's getting pretty deep in here.

Say I want a gun. Hey, we've got a lax border. We live next door to the world's greatest exponent of the wonderfulness of guns, right? Can I get a gun? What, are they being sold on streetcorners here? I've lived in some tough neighbourhoods here (as it goes in Vancouver) but I can't just get a gun. I'm not getting into it online, but I've run with some heavy duty people in my younger and much dumber days, and for me to get a gun would take a hell of a lot of effort, and I'm probably an hour and a half drive from the border. What, there's some great demand for guns? As if gun nuts are like junkies who are going to fiend without their fix? Pfffffffffft. Not bloody likely. "Ingrained in collective culture before George Washington"? WTF? Where do you get this crap? What have you been reading?

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What Americans can do to prevent Columbine from repeating itself for the nth time is to simply be kinder to those around them. If more people cared to share love and compassion with their family and neighbours, there would be less alienated people and therefore less people prone to do completely bat**** crazy things.

And that's another point - those shooters aren't "evil". Dubbing them that way is the worst thing you can possibly do to prevent future tragedies because it assumes that they were hopeless from the moment they were born which couldn't be farther from the truth. Most people would be considered "evil" if placed in different circumstances. A little empathy goes a very long way.
So...we should be nicer to each other. Okay, down with that. Also, ban private ownership of any firearms besides single shot rifles and shotguns with serving military personnel and police exempted. See how that works. Not as if it was tried and didn't work, is it?

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12-15-2012, 03:12 AM
  #363
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The US and Canada actually are quite similar. Religion, income level, systems of government, crime data (all of which you actually can look up pretty easily if you want)...all are very comparable. Both former British colonies, both highly involved with each other. There are specific racial differences between the populations but the relevant studies I mentioned are easily available. Just google them or head to wikipedia.
I was born in the USA and still occasionally spend time there with family, I have a fair idea of the differences between the two. And no, they aren't mirror images of each other. For instance, USA doesn't have many of the equity laws that we do; our systems of governments are considerably different from each other (seriously?); religious roots are significantly different (i.e. strong Anglican influence, not much Baptist or Mormon, religious conservatism is far stronger in the USA)and views on the limits of government and what they actually do is quite different. And much more. For many purposes, yes, Canada is very similar to the USA. But we're very far from being a 51st state.

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Can't speak to Latin America, but Switzerland is the one exception to the rule concerning lax gun laws. The difference there is that the Swiss are all required to serve in the military and receive proper training in the use and storage of firearms. It's the one place in Europe that American gun nuts like to cite as having lots of guns but not a lot of homicides.
That's because the idea of having the right to gun ownership is foreign in most places so there simply aren't a lot of comparable to draw from nowadays.

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See above. And wasn't the second amendment to the US Constitution meant to provide for all citizens to form a militia to protect against the British Empire invading when drafted? Uh...have to look that one up, but I'm pretty sure the UK cancelled the plans to reconquer the rebelling colonies.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The meaning of that has evolved over time. A "free state" can mean as much as an independent nation as it can also mean a democratic nation, meaning the people ought to arms themselves against tyranny. It's about how people at a given time interprets these words. There are also laws outlining rights to self-defence (some states even have "castle doctrine" legislation. So in the eyes of an American, there can be many reasons to keep a gun around.

Quote:
Say I want a gun. Hey, we've got a lax border. We live next door to the world's greatest exponent of the wonderfulness of guns, right? Can I get a gun? What, are they being sold on streetcorners here? I've lived in some tough neighbourhoods here (as it goes in Vancouver) but I can't just get a gun. I'm not getting into it online, but I've run with some heavy duty people in my younger and much dumber days, and for me to get a gun would take a hell of a lot of effort, and I'm probably an hour and a half drive from the border. What, there's some great demand for guns? As if gun nuts are like junkies who are going to fiend without their fix? Pfffffffffft. Not bloody likely. "Ingrained in collective culture before George Washington"? WTF? Where do you get this crap? What have you been reading?
Canadians don't have much of a gun culture (not so in urban places) or even the thought of using lethal violence as a self-defence (or criminal) tool so to speak, so there simply isn't much demand for guns so you won't get a lot of people smuggling guns - hell, running BC Bud is probably a lot more profitable. Guns are far more popular and accepted in the USA so there's exponentially more demand and supply of guns. And since many Americans see owning guns as a constitutional right there would be a very strong response. It's simple as that.

...but okay, the George Washington comment might've been an exaggeration. But it's been hundreds of years since the right of bear guns has been enshrined in law and embraced by the population.

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So...we should be nicer to each other. Okay, down with that. Also, ban private ownership of any firearms besides single shot rifles and shotguns with serving military personnel and police exempted. See how that works. Not as if it was tried and didn't work, is it?
And you would get the aforementioned problems anyway.

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12-15-2012, 04:38 AM
  #364
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12-15-2012, 06:42 PM
  #365
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And honestly, what's the worst that could come of stricter gun control policies? Let's say it violent crimes don't go down. How is it hurting then? It would clearly have a neutral effect if that was the case. Nothing would change, that's the worst thing that could happen.

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12-15-2012, 07:41 PM
  #366
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And honestly, what's the worst that could come of stricter gun control policies? Let's say it violent crimes don't go down. How is it hurting then? It would clearly have a neutral effect if that was the case. Nothing would change, that's the worst thing that could happen.
Devil's advocate, it would create a greater black market for guns and such, also increasing crime. See Prohibition era.

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12-15-2012, 07:54 PM
  #367
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Devil's advocate, it would create a greater black market for guns and such, also increasing crime. See Prohibition era.
I'd find that a compelling argument if it was drugs vs drugs. But this is drugs vs guns. One kills, one (disclaimer) doesn't. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned, just ask Switzerland.

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12-15-2012, 10:31 PM
  #368
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No idea how they're going to stretch The Hobbit over 3 films. The first one basically covered over half the book and even then, the pacing was slower than I thought it would be.

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12-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #369
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12-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #370
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Oh God.....main board having argument on whether they hate Seguin or the Sedin twins more. I don't understand how people could dislike the Sedins.

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12-16-2012, 04:49 PM
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Oh God.....main board having argument on whether they hate Seguin or the Sedin twins more. I don't understand how people could dislike the Sedins.
Main board is literally ****. Just a bunch of circle-jerking over "underrated" players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nielsen, Pietrangelo, and Karlsson.

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12-16-2012, 05:21 PM
  #372
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Oh God.....main board having argument on whether they hate Seguin or the Sedin twins more. I don't understand how people could dislike the Sedins.
I was offended for about 0.00001 seconds.

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12-16-2012, 05:28 PM
  #373
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Oh God.....main board having argument on whether they hate Seguin or the Sedin twins more. I don't understand how people could dislike the Sedins.
Henrik dived once or twice in the 2011 playoffs. Because he is a Canuck, that is an offence far more egregious than checking from behind, headhunting, elbowing and the sorts. Oh, and Daniel is awful too. Because well, he's Henrik's twin brother so they're all divers! Dirty divers!

I don't even know why he was matched up against Seguin (what else is he known for other than ******* jokes?), I guess it was to guarantee that HF would vote the Sedins into the 2nd round.

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12-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Henrik dived once or twice in the 2011 playoffs. Because he is a Canuck, that is an offence far more egregious than checking from behind, headhunting, elbowing and the sorts. Oh, and Daniel is awful too. Because well, he's Henrik's twin brother so they're all divers! Dirty divers!

I don't even know why he was matched up against Seguin (what else is he known for other than ******* jokes?), I guess it was to guarantee that HF would vote the Sedins into the 2nd round.

such is life in HF Boards

uuuuunfaaaaair
I don't know why you guys would go there. It's just a bad place to be in general.

Taelin is offline  
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12-16-2012, 06:42 PM
  #375
Slot 3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
I don't know why you guys would go there. It's just a bad place to be in general.
I seek entertainment, and there are very few things more entertaining than the main boards.

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