HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

University/College Questions Part IV

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-14-2012, 12:45 PM
  #451
Joe Cole
Registered User
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post


Your stubbornness is mildly amusing.
As is your obvious lack of perspective born from real experience.

Joe Cole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2012, 04:32 PM
  #452
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Obviously I go during office hours.

And no, it is not a 'privilege.' Holding office hours is a requirement of professors outlined in their job description.

I am both respectful and direct, I expect profs not to blow me off and make me feel like the size of a pea.
It's a requirement but it's also a privilege.

Either there very few professors that blew us off. I remember those, but for the most part it was an easy avenue for dynamic discussion at a high level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I am not talking about professor salaries, I agree their standards should remain high and competitive. I am more talking about the hundreds of MUNACA full-time workers that command wages of $30+ for doing fairly low-medium skilled jobs.

I am of the opinion that universities should offer more internship position for students within their own departments. One of the leading causes of unemployment after graduation is lack of experience. By cutting into their full-time work forces and replacing them with students, you can not only cut expenditures but also give your students valuable hands-on experience. The only students that get jobs at McGill that I have seen work in the low-rung services like the bookstore or service point.
That's not as much money as it sounds. A thousand employees (you said hundreds) making 30 bucks an hour full-time costs ~60 million a year, and these are probably jobs that need doing that nobody would be willing/able to do for free anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I have also never heard of a PhD student not having their own computer.

I don't really get these posts, this is 2012 (almost 2013), every single university student needs a laptop computer at the least. Universities need to provide a base of computer services, but expecting universities to subsidize such a costly and quickly outdated technology is asinine in this day and age. These costs can easily be offset by students and this exactly what is happening.



I am not going to argue that McGill's infrastructure is great, because it isn't. But it also comes with the territory of being one of the oldest universities in the country.

My gripe comes when McGill spends $6 million on 'beautifying' an outside walkway beside the library that takes 2 years to complete.

Or the fact that at 2 AM, every light in the office buildings hallways is still on for some asinine reason.

Better financial management is needed at McGill, it is as simple as that.
Universities should pay for computer costs for their employees. That includes both the computer and the computer services that go with it; i.e. system administrators on site to provide tech support.

People may already have personal computers but the needs of a work computer are often different.

I mean really -- do you expect people to pay for their own business travel too?

I've known people from dozens of schools and have never heard of anybody not from McGill being told to buy their own computer. I was horrified when I heard my friend's story. What's even worse is that the salaries at McGill for graduate students are microscopic. I think it's like $17,000 -- that is ridiculous for a city with an extremely high cost of living. In light of what it is in cheaper US cities, it should be ~$30,000 in Montreal -- with computer costs already paid for.

But that would require more government support and higher undergraduate tuition.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-14-2012 at 05:04 PM.
DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 01:38 AM
  #453
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's a requirement but it's also a privilege.

Either there very few professors that blew us off. I remember those, but for the most part it was an easy avenue for dynamic discussion at a high level.
Has not been my experience, nor most of my colleagues.

Quote:
That's not as much money as it sounds. A thousand employees (you said hundreds) making 30 bucks an hour full-time costs ~60 million a year, and these are probably jobs that need doing that nobody would be willing/able to do for free anyway.
Administrative expenses constitute nearly 20% of McGill's operating budget.

It doesn't have to be for free, you can pay a student half the wage of a full-time union worker.

Quote:
Universities should pay for computer costs for their employees. That includes both the computer and the computer services that go with it; i.e. system administrators on site to provide tech support.
Why should universities buy thousands of computers, when everyone who needs them has access to their own computer anyways?

Quote:
People may already have personal computers but the needs of a work computer are often different.
You can now get lap top computers for around $1000 that can handle anything you need for work.

Quote:
I mean really -- do you expect people to pay for their own business travel too?
Hyperbolic analogy for $500 Alex.

Quote:
I've known people from dozens of schools and have never heard of anybody not from McGill being told to buy their own computer. I was horrified when I heard my friend's story. What's even worse is that the salaries at McGill for graduate students are microscopic. I think it's like $17,000 -- that is ridiculous for a city with an extremely high cost of living. In light of what it is in cheaper US cities, it should be ~$30,000 in Montreal -- with computer costs already paid for.
Average graduate student salary is just over $23,000. Within a couple of thousand for the national Canadian average.

Montreal does not have an extremely high cost of living, not sure what on earth you are talking about. Montreal is the cheapest major city to live in Canada, and is lower than major cities in the US. Comparatively speaking, for a city it's size, Montreal is one of the cheapest cities to live in in the developed world.

Quote:
One of Greater Montréal’s assets is unquestionably its affordable cost of living. Whether for accommodation, food, clothing, medical care or raising a family, costs in Montréal are far less than in other major cities.

The Québec health system is based on the principle of universality, thus ensuring free basic medical care to every resident in the province.

Public education is also free of charge from kindergarten to college, in both French and English. Greater Montréal also has four first-class universities where tuition fees are among the lowest in North America.

The metropolitan area also benefits from daycare fees that are among the lowest in North America.

Montréal is one of the large cities in the world that offers the most affordable prices according to Prices and Earnings: A Comparison of Purchasing Power Around the Globe, a study conducted by the Union des Banques Suisses (2008).

Compared with other major cities in North America and Europe, Montréal is one of the few metropolitan areas in the world where the cost of housing remains affordable. Housing prices in many American cities are double those in Montréal.
The metropolis ranks 1st in Canada for its low housing prices and apartment rentals (CMHC, 2008).
http://www.montrealinternational.com/live-cost-living/

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 03:07 AM
  #454
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Administrative expenses constitute nearly 20% of McGill's operating budget.

It doesn't have to be for free, you can pay a student half the wage of a full-time union worker.
I doubt you would find many students willing and able to clean toilets competently for minimum wage. If anything, the dilapidated and dirty infrastructure at McGill shows they spend too little, rather than too much money.

And virtually none would be qualified for administrative roles, let alone the senior administrative roles that take the most salary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Why should universities buy thousands of computers, when everyone who needs them has access to their own computer anyways?
Because it doesn't make sense that McGill should be the only top-500 university in the world to not pay for business expenses.

A business expense should be paid by the employer.

I'll point out again that work computers and personal computers should be separate, for various reasons.

But by all means: don't cover business expenses. See what that does for recruitement and retainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You can now get lap top computers for around $1000 that can handle anything you need for work.
I just got a new laptop-based work computer, it was $3,500, though that might be $2500 in North America, things are more expensive down under.

About $2000 for the macbook air, $1200 for the thunderbolt monitor, $300 for various such as wireless keyboard and mouse. Am likely to be getting some external hard drives soon.

And my needs are not particularly large. Many people I know require tens of thousands of dollars of computer equipment for their projects. I have already nearly filled up my 500 Gig hard drive just from installing necessary software and importing data from my thesis.

If you need power you might go for an 8-core desktop. Some people I know got some a few years back. It runs for several thousand dollars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Hyperbolic analogy for $500 Alex.
Not really, computers like business travel are business expenses that run into the four to five digits annually. They're very similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Average graduate student salary is just over $23,000. Within a couple of thousand for the national Canadian average.
I'm guessing they need to pay tuition out of the $23,000, so it's not really $23,000.

McGill physics pays $21,400, but that's before the tuition waiver:
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/grads/finance.html

I was paid $25,000 at Ohio State, in addition to a tuition waiver. It was typical for friends in the USA, One guy I knew went to Stanford in 2006, he got $30,000/year. Another one got about that at UC Irvine with a $10,000 starting bonus. Another guy I knew went to John Hopkins in 2006, he got $40,000/year to study biostatistics. All with a tuition waiver of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Montreal does not have an extremely high cost of living, not sure what on earth you are talking about. Montreal is the cheapest major city to live in Canada, and is lower than major cities in the US. Comparatively speaking, for a city it's size, Montreal is one of the cheapest cities to live in in the developed world.

http://www.montrealinternational.com/live-cost-living/
I'm talking about cost of living for a graduate student or other academic, i.e. the cost relevant to our discussion. It's a bit different than for the rest of the public so I understand if you're behind.

That same article would tell you that New York City is more expensive than Montreal, but the reality is that Columbia University owns a lot of real estate, and if you're a Columbia academic you can get a respectable apartment, in the middle of manhattan, for $700/month. A friend of mine got that, she just moved there to get a PhD in English lit.

This wasn't the case when I was at Ohio State, but within a 20 minute walk to you could get a respectable apartment for $600/month utilities included, without needing to pay extravagant heating costs. To have such an apartment in downtown montreal you would need to spend $1000/month ... either that or you could devastate your career by spending 2 hours a day commuting total.

Your article also mentions health care cost. The private health insurance you get at US universities is almost always paid for anyway, and provides vastly superior service to the Quebec health care system. The one time in my five years I needed to go the ER it only took ~10 minutes to see a doctor, I was in and out with treatment in a few hours. The health insurance also covered dental.

Your article then mentions tuition fees. Tuition fees are usually waived for graduate students.

Finally your article says clothing is cheaper in Montreal. That is true compared to some other countries such as Australia, but not compared to the USA. That said if Montrealers want cheap groceries, plane tickets, clothing, and alcohol they have the option of driving to Vermont or New Hampshire. That's what I often did in Montreal and it's what a lot of people do.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-16-2012 at 03:30 AM.
DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:11 AM
  #455
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I doubt you would find many students willing and able to clean toilets competently for minimum wage. If anything, the dilapidated and dirty infrastructure at McGill shows they spend too little, rather than too much money.

And virtually none would be qualified for administrative roles, let alone the senior administrative roles that take the most salary.
There are plenty of administration positions that students can qualify for. From secretaries, to analysts, to web technicians, to accounting.

Quote:
Because it doesn't make sense that McGill should be the only top-500 university in the world to not pay for business expenses.

A business expense should be paid by the employer.

I'll point out again that work computers and personal computers should be separate, for various reasons.

But by all means: don't cover business expenses. See what that does for recruitement and retainment.

I just got a new laptop-based work computer, it was $3,500, though that might be $2500 in North America, things are more expensive down under.

About $2000 for the macbook air, $1200 for the thunderbolt monitor, $300 for various such as wireless keyboard and mouse. Am likely to be getting some external hard drives soon.

And my needs are not particularly large. Many people I know require tens of thousands of dollars of computer equipment for their projects. I have already nearly filled up my 500 Gig hard drive just from installing necessary software and importing data from my thesis.

If you need power you might go for an 8-core desktop. Some people I know got some a few years back. It runs for several thousand dollars.

Not really, computers like business travel are business expenses that run into the four to five digits annually. They're very similar.
There is a difference between providing computers for special cases, then providing computers for basic research.

My room mate is a masters student in neuroscience, McGill supplies him with all he needs to collect data for his research. I am sure it is no different in any other department.

That being said, you still haven't pointed out why a university should buy a new computer to every graduate student. $2000 for a laptop is not bad at all, and can easily be provided and maintained by the student themselves.

You also didn't even need to spend $2000 and $1200 on a macbook air or 'thunderbolt' monitor. You could have spent $1200 on something that gave you the same specs.

Quote:
I'm guessing they need to pay tuition out of the $23,000, so it's not really $23,000.

McGill physics pays $21,400, but that's before the tuition waiver:
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/grads/finance.html

I was paid $25,000 at Ohio State, in addition to a tuition waiver. It was typical for friends in the USA, One guy I knew went to Stanford in 2006, he got $30,000/year. Another one got about that at UC Irvine with a $10,000 starting bonus. Another guy I knew went to John Hopkins in 2006, he got $40,000/year to study biostatistics. All with a tuition waiver of course.
No Canadian universities offer tuition waivers, it is part of having an entire public tertiary system. However, considering Canada has some of the lowest (with Quebec being the lowest) tuition rates in the world, this is not a problem.

You are comparing some private schools to McGill, the only two that got substantially higher salaries were from John Hopkins and Stanford. These are universities that have a combined 6,000 undergrads. Apples and oranges, dude.

Quote:
I'm talking about cost of living for a graduate student or other academic, i.e. the cost relevant to our discussion. It's a bit different than for the rest of the public so I understand if you're behind.
How is it any different? Cost of living indexes are composed of 5 or 6 basic costs that virtually everyone accrues by living in a particular place.

Quote:
That same article would tell you that New York City is more expensive than Montreal, but the reality is that Columbia University owns a lot of real estate, and if you're a Columbia academic you can get a respectable apartment, in the middle of manhattan, for $700/month. A friend of mine got that, she just moved there to get a PhD in English lit.

This wasn't the case when I was at Ohio State, but within a 20 minute walk to you could get a respectable apartment for $600/month utilities included, without needing to pay extravagant heating costs. To have such an apartment in downtown montreal you would need to spend $1000/month ... either that or you could devastate your career by spending 2 hours a day commuting total.
Is this a joke? I'll repeat it again. Montreal has some of the lowest housing costs in the entire developed world.

I rent a very nice 3 bedroom, two floor apartment in Outremont for $1200. Which is a 30 minute walk from McGill. Good luck finding that in any major city in North America.

Quote:
Your article also mentions health care cost. The private health insurance you get at US universities is almost always paid for anyway, and provides vastly superior service to the Quebec health care system. The one time in my five years I needed to go the ER it only took ~10 minutes to see a doctor, I was in and out with treatment in a few hours. The health insurance also covered dental.
McGill students get health care and dental insurance. From my experience, unless you are looking for a family doctor, the health care in Montreal is good quality.

Quote:
Finally your article says clothing is cheaper in Montreal. That is true compared to some other countries such as Australia, but not compared to the USA. That said if Montrealers want cheap groceries, plane tickets, clothing, and alcohol they have the option of driving to Vermont or New Hampshire. That's what I often did in Montreal and it's what a lot of people do.
It said nothing about clothing. The purchasing power of Montreal residents is very high compared to anywhere in North America and Europe. I trust a study done by a reputable bank more than your anecdotal information.


Last edited by guest1467: 12-16-2012 at 11:17 AM.
guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 04:07 PM
  #456
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
There are plenty of administration positions that students can qualify for. From secretaries, to analysts, to web technicians, to accounting.
The web development work for McGill as actually being done by McGill alumni at competitive market rates, and that company has employed McGill students:
http://evolvingweb.ca/
It's not a job that two undergrads can do with their spare time on their weekends.

I've known of students do system administrative roles for various departments, and I've known of students run some of the newspapers. Basically, if students are qualified, they can get administrative positions with McGill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
There is a difference between providing computers for special cases, then providing computers for basic research.

My room mate is a masters student in neuroscience, McGill supplies him with all he needs to collect data for his research. I am sure it is no different in any other department.

That being said, you still haven't pointed out why a university should buy a new computer to every graduate student. $2000 for a laptop is not bad at all, and can easily be provided and maintained by the student themselves.
I've already specifically given you the example of an electrical engineering phd student who was denied a laptop by his supervisor, but please, ignore it.

Well, they can not provide a computer, and increase the annual salary by $1000/year instead. Personally I think it would be better to provide a computer.

ETA: I've neglected to mention that many low income students don't have computers of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You also didn't even need to spend $2000 and $1200 on a macbook air or 'thunderbolt' monitor. You could have spent $1200 on something that gave you the same specs.
You don't want to be cheap on something that increases productivity. If it increases productivity, then pay for it.

The cost of employing someone, with all the administrative overhead, ranges from $50,000-$100,000; if at that point you are too cheap to pay $2,000/year for something that increases the productivity of your labor, then you're a fool.

The reason I bought this setup is that it gives the comfort of a desktop computer in the office, but it can be disconnected and used as a laptop during travel sequences. If I'm spending a month or two a year travelling, then I need a good, nimble laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
No Canadian universities offer tuition waivers, it is part of having an entire public tertiary system. However, considering Canada has some of the lowest (with Quebec being the lowest) tuition rates in the world, this is not a problem.
I just showed you a link that the McGill physics department offers a tuition waiver.

For some other departments that apparently don't waive tuition, $4,000 is a massive problem on a graduate student salary. They should offer salaries that are $4,000 higher to compensate. But they won't, so they will end up with lower quality individuals. Nobody wants to spend five years of their lives on peanut butter and kraft dinner, so this is where they'll go if they have no other options.

When I was applying for graduate school in 2007, I specifically didn't apply to UToronto and UBC because I knew that $18,000 and $20,000 (salaries at the time) would not cut it in those cities even with the tuition waivers they were offering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You are comparing some private schools to McGill, the only two that got substantially higher salaries were from John Hopkins and Stanford. These are universities that have a combined 6,000 undergrads. Apples and oranges, dude.
I am comparing public and private schools to McGill.
Ohio State and UC Irvine are public schools.
The guy who went to John Hopkins had the exact same offer from University of Washington.
How many examples from public schools do you want? 20? 30?

By the way, even if all the examples were from private schools, MGill and all Quebec universities have to compete with private schools for hiring staff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
How is it any different? Cost of living indexes are composed of 5 or 6 basic costs that virtually everyone accrues by living in a particular place.
I gave you some specific examples. Let's try again:

- Tuition is actually more expensive for academics in Quebec, because it's apparently not universally waived here.

Is that complicated? Can you get the point? If the sticker price is $50,000 in Massachussetts, and $4000 in Montreal, then your bank study will conclude it's cheaper in Montreal, even though no academic pays the $50,000.

The same is true of rent. Your study would conclude that rent is cheaper in Montreal than in New York, but that is actually specifically not true if you're employed by Columbia.

[QUOTE=buddahsmoka1;56586341]Is this a joke? I'll repeat it again. Montreal has some of the lowest housing costs in the entire developed world.

I rent a very nice 3 bedroom, two floor apartment in Outremont for $1200. Which is a 30 minute walk from McGill. Good luck finding that in any major city in North America.[QUOTE=buddahsmoka1;56586341]
I was paying $1200/month for a four bedroom with three floors a couple years ago, at a 15 minute walk from campus.

A friend of mine bought at a house, in a nice neighbourhood, three floors, four bedrooms, backyard, 30 minute walk to university, for under $200,000. In Montreal that would be $500,000 or more.

Everybody I know in Montreal is struggling with the high cost of living and high taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
McGill students get health care and dental insurance. From my experience, unless you are looking for a family doctor, the health care in Montreal is good quality.
"Unless you're looking for a family doctor" lol. Are you serious?

As for your "experiences", you're a man in your 20s, your experiences are limited because your health has probably been good. My father passed away from cancer a year ago after a long struggle with crappy treatment. I know what I know about health care in Montreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
It said nothing about clothing. The purchasing power of Montreal residents is very high compared to anywhere in North America and Europe. I trust a study done by a reputable bank more than your anecdotal information.
The article mentioned clothing:
One of Greater Montréal’s assets is unquestionably its affordable cost of living. Whether for accommodation, food, clothing, medical care or raising a family, costs in Montréal are far less than in other major cities.
Having seen many places, clothing in Montreal is indeed cheaper than say Europe or Australia... but it's even cheaper in the USA.

**************************************

All of this to say, the Quebec government can legitimately choose to not have world-class universities, and to be a second-world or even become a third-world backwater within North America. If they don't make the necessary investments, in either higher tuition or higher gover nment support, then that's what will happen. If you want to hire high quality staff, you'll have to pay for it.

Conversely, if you tell staff you're too cheap to cover business expenses, and that you can't afford to pay graduate students a living wage, you'll pay the costs in other ways as your society declines.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-16-2012 at 04:12 PM.
DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 05:13 PM
  #457
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The web development work for McGill as actually being done by McGill alumni at competitive market rates, and that company has employed McGill students:
http://evolvingweb.ca/
It's not a job that two undergrads can do with their spare time on their weekends.

I've known of students do system administrative roles for various departments, and I've known of students run some of the newspapers. Basically, if students are qualified, they can get administrative positions with McGill.
Good, it should be more widespread. Instead you have MUNACA workers striking for 70% pay raises, while you have students crossing picket lines to do their job for them.

Quote:
I've already specifically given you the example of an electrical engineering phd student who was denied a laptop by his supervisor, but please, ignore it.
This has really no relevance to the question of why a university should buy a computer for every student.

Quote:
ETA: I've neglected to mention that many low income students don't have computers of their own.
I have never seen a student without a lap top. And if they don't have one, they can park their ass in the library and use those. Otherwise they can GTFO, because there is no point of going to university if you don't have a laptop or access to a computer.

Quote:
You don't want to be cheap on something that increases productivity. If it increases productivity, then pay for it.
You can't increase productivity by supplying something students already have.

Quote:
The reason I bought this setup is that it gives the comfort of a desktop computer in the office, but it can be disconnected and used as a laptop during travel sequences. If I'm spending a month or two a year travelling, then I need a good, nimble laptop.
And I just bought a lap top with probably better specs for under a grand. Laptops are dirt cheap these days if you know how to shop for them. LCD/HD monitors run for a single bill.

Quote:
I just showed you a link that the McGill physics department offers a tuition waiver.

For some other departments that apparently don't waive tuition, $4,000 is a massive problem on a graduate student salary. They should offer salaries that are $4,000 higher to compensate. But they won't, so they will end up with lower quality individuals. Nobody wants to spend five years of their lives on peanut butter and kraft dinner, so this is where they'll go if they have no other options.
I meant to say widespread, sorry. Approx. $20K is a fine salary for student in Montreal. It hardly amounts to "peanut butter and kraft dinner." I live very comfortably on a $22K income.

Quote:
When I was applying for graduate school in 2007, I specifically didn't apply to UToronto and UBC because I knew that $18,000 and $20,000 (salaries at the time) would not cut it in those cities even with the tuition waivers they were offering.
And Toronto and UBC have 15-20% higher costs of living than Montreal. Opps, there goes your 'extremely high cost of living' argument.

Quote:
I am comparing public and private schools to McGill.
Ohio State and UC Irvine are public schools.
The guy who went to John Hopkins had the exact same offer from University of Washington.
How many examples from public schools do you want? 20? 30?
You provided two public school examples, from American schools no less. Is it really that surprising that American schools can provide higher salaries? McGill's graduate student salaries are more or less in line with Canadian universities, with the lowest tuition costs and costs of living. If you do the math, McGill is providing the best purchasing power to their graduate students in the country.

I gave you some specific examples. Let's try again:

Quote:
- Tuition is actually more expensive for academics in Quebec, because it's apparently not universally waived here.

Is that complicated? Can you get the point? If the sticker price is $50,000 in Massachussetts, and $4000 in Montreal, then your bank study will conclude it's cheaper in Montreal, even though no academic pays the $50,000.
It is not universally waived anywhere. Not all American schools waive tuition, nor does everyone that gets enrolled as a graduate school receive full waivers.

Quote:
The same is true of rent. Your study would conclude that rent is cheaper in Montreal than in New York, but that is actually specifically not true if you're employed by Columbia.
False. You said your friend got an apartment for $700, and I guarantee that this is a special occasion. Even then, rent prices in Montreal average much less than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I was paying $1200/month for a four bedroom with three floors a couple years ago, at a 15 minute walk from campus.

A friend of mine bought at a house, in a nice neighbourhood, three floors, four bedrooms, backyard, 30 minute walk to university, for under $200,000. In Montreal that would be $500,000 or more.
Where? In Ohio? No ****...

Quote:
Everybody I know in Montreal is struggling with the high cost of living and high taxes.
Spare me.

Quote:
"Unless you're looking for a family doctor" lol. Are you serious?

As for your "experiences", you're a man in your 20s, your experiences are limited because your health has probably been good. My father passed away from cancer a year ago after a long struggle with crappy treatment. I know what I know about health care in Montreal.
I am sorry about your father, but we are talking about graduate students are we not? How is my health 'because I am in my 20s' not relevant to a discussion about graduate students, but your middle-aged father's health is? Doesn't make sense.

Quote:
The article mentioned clothing:
One of Greater Montréal’s assets is unquestionably its affordable cost of living. Whether for accommodation, food, clothing, medical care or raising a family, costs in Montréal are far less than in other major cities.
Having seen many places, clothing in Montreal is indeed cheaper than say Europe or Australia... but it's even cheaper in the USA.
Yeah, key word, mentioned. As in you know, it's only part of a wider assortment of consumption goods in the index.

**************************************

Quote:
All of this to say, the Quebec government can legitimately choose to not have world-class universities, and to be a second-world or even become a third-world backwater within North America. If they don't make the necessary investments, in either higher tuition or higher gover nment support, then that's what will happen. If you want to hire high quality staff, you'll have to pay for it.

Conversely, if you tell staff you're too cheap to cover business expenses, and that you can't afford to pay graduate students a living wage, you'll pay the costs in other ways as your society declines.
Yeah, I'll wait to see when Montreal becomes a second or third world backwater within North America, much less their universities.

Here, I'll give you a little homework. Go on the QS rankings, and check out the funds all the top 20 universities receive. McGill has been one of the lowest earning universities on that list for over a decade, it hasn't changed anything.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #458
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
False. You said your friend got an apartment for $700, and I guarantee that this is a special occasion. Even then, rent prices in Montreal average much less than that.
No, it's not a special occasion.

Why would you fabricate such an obviously false argument? You must know for certain already that I would not bring it up if it were a special occasion. The fact that I' m bringing it up should in and of itself clue you in that it is general.

It's well known that Columbia is one of the largest real estate owners in New York. You go there, as an undergrad, grad, postdoc, or faculty, and you'll get very cheap accomodation.

I mean honestly arguing with you is really annoying here. I bring up a fact, which you know has to be general, and you invent the argument that is has to be a special occasion ... what's the matter with you? Why not simply acknowledge that this is a factor you were not aware of?

And no, you cannot get a high-quality apartment in downtown Montreal for 700/month, never mind one with a respectable landlord who will cover repairs and such issues on time and properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Where? In Ohio? No ****...
Columbus is a major city with a population of 1.7 million.

I'm sure you think of it as "the middle of nowhere", but you know what I've heard ignorant people call Montreal? "The middle of nowehere" - lol.

When people insult a location they've never been to and know nothing about ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I am sorry about your father, but we are talking about graduate students are we not? How is my health 'because I am in my 20s' not relevant to a discussion about graduate students, but your middle-aged father's health is? Doesn't make sense.
You could still get sick in your 20s even if you're less likely to.

One of my friends in grad school actually did get a tumour. It's not as common at age 25 as at age 65 but it still happens. She got good treatment. If it had happened in Montreal she might be dead now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, key word, mentioned. As in you know, it's only part of a wider assortment of consumption goods in the index.
Two other factors are the cost of gasoline and the cost of plane tickets, I don't remember if they were mentioned or not, but they're both much higher in Canada than in the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I have never seen a student without a lap top. And if they don't have one, they can park their ass in the library and use those. Otherwise they can GTFO, because there is no point of going to university if you don't have a laptop or access to a computer.
Not everybody is as wealthy as you are. I certainly didn't have my own laptop, but I'm from a working-class background. I know a lot of people who did not have laptops of their own.

Honestly you're coming off as clued out. You want people to use the computers in their libraries? Are you completely and utterly insane? What do you expect them to do when they have an idea at 3am -- walk to the library which is closed at 3am and walk back? How do you expect them to work when they're travelling?

**************************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, I'll wait to see when Montreal becomes a second or third world backwater within North America, much less their universities.

Here, I'll give you a little homework. Go on the QS rankings, and check out the funds all the top 20 universities receive. McGill has been one of the lowest earning universities on that list for over a decade, it hasn't changed anything.
It's already happening. Montreal was once Canada's financial center, it's been on a steady trajectory of decline for 40 or 50 years. It did improve under the Charest Liberals but that is over now.

The roads are dilapidated and bridges fall on people, the olympic stadium is an international joke, and at McGill you can't find a clean bathroom without looking hard.

Under better management, the city would become comparable to Boston.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 06:10 PM
  #459
Huge94
Registered User
 
Huge94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: England
Posts: 351
vCash: 500
Cost of living is so subjective, you cannot have a real argument on that unless you are living in NYC or Vancouver. Yes living in Montreal, is more expensive than living in the country, but you cannot say that it is on par with the likes of the aforementioned NYC and Vancouver. I am a student living with my GF and we live very comfortably *for students* on a budget of around 1000-1200$ a month.

Of course, the concept of ''need'' is different for everyone. I don't have a cellphone, a car, don't have a fancy Macbook but a very reasonable laptop and don't eat out often. I am still very comfortable and happy.

Huge94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 07:09 PM
  #460
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, it's not a special occasion.

Why would you fabricate such an obviously false argument? You must know for certain already that I would not bring it up if it were a special occasion. The fact that I' m bringing it up should in and of itself clue you in that it is general.

It's well known that Columbia is one of the largest real estate owners in New York. You go there, as an undergrad, grad, postdoc, or faculty, and you'll get very cheap accomodation.

I mean honestly arguing with you is really annoying here. I bring up a fact, which you know has to be general, and you invent the argument that is has to be a special occasion ... what's the matter with you? Why not simply acknowledge that this is a factor you were not aware of?
From the website itself:

Quote:
The UAH inventory consists of apartment shares and dormitory-style rooms. There are also a limited number of studio/efficiency, one bedroom, and two bedroom units for which priority is given to couples and families. Most student housing is located within walking distance of the campus in the Morningside Heights neighborhood. Students are also housed in Manhattan Valley, just south of Morningside Heights, and in Washington Heights, just north of Morningside Heights. Additionally, students are housed in Riverdale, Bronx, in a new facility known as The Arbor, which opened in 2008. Weekday shuttle service to and from The Arbor is provided.
Quote:
The number and type of student housing units available for rent at any given time varies throughout the year. Therefore, we cannot guarantee that students will be housed in accommodations that satisfy their first preference in terms of type, location, and price range. To enable us to offer you the best assignment, it is important that you indicate as many acceptable types of housing as possible and note any special circumstances in the comments section of your housing application.
http://facilities.columbia.edu/housi...als#HowToApply

Basically your argument is this:

1) My friend goes to Columbia and got a good deal on housing.
2) Therefore, everyone at Columbia gets a good deal on housing.

Fallacious.

Quote:
And no, you cannot get a high-quality apartment in downtown Montreal for 700/month, never mind one with a respectable landlord who will cover repairs and such issues on time and properly.
I just told you that I get a three bedroom apartment for $1200, 30 minutes away from McGill. That is a whopping $400 a month for rent. Last time I checked, 400 is a lot smaller than 700.

Quote:
Columbus is a major city with a population of 1.7 million.

I'm sure you think of it as "the middle of nowhere", but you know what I've heard ignorant people call Montreal? "The middle of nowehere" - lol.

When people insult a location they've never been to and know nothing about ...
Where did I insult Ohio? I said 'no ****' as in yeah, rent is probably low in Ohio. Is it really that surprising that rent is low in Ohio?

You need to calm down bro.

Quote:
You could still get sick in your 20s even if you're less likely to.

One of my friends in grad school actually did get a tumour. It's not as common at age 25 as at age 65 but it still happens. She got good treatment. If it had happened in Montreal she might be dead now.
Yeah, I am sure she would be dead...

Quote:
Two other factors are the cost of gasoline and the cost of plane tickets, I don't remember if they were mentioned or not, but they're both much higher in Canada than in the USA.
Two things that aren't really relevant to students.

Quote:
Not everybody is as wealthy as you are. I certainly didn't have my own laptop, but I'm from a working-class background. I know a lot of people who did not have laptops of their own.
I can almost guarantee I come from a family with a lower income than you. My parents had a combined income of maybe $35K throughout my life. I just made a priority to get a computer for myself for school, go figure.

Quote:
Honestly you're coming off as clued out. You want people to use the computers in their libraries? Are you completely and utterly insane? What do you expect them to do when they have an idea at 3am -- walk to the library which is closed at 3am and walk back? How do you expect them to work when they're travelling?
Then, uhm, buy a computer? I really don't understand this. For a student, a lap top is the number 1 need. Also, if one has an idea at 3 AM, you know, they could pick up a pen and write it down on a piece of paper.

And I thought we were talking about people who 'couldn't afford' lap tops. But now you are including traveling? Who the hell can't afford a lap top for school but can regularly go travelling?

It just makes no sense to me. Where is the logic here:

I want my university to pay for my lap top!
Well, sorry, we don't have enough funds to buy everyone lap tops. But we have computer laps in the library you are free to use.
Well, that is inconvenient! I quit my PhD!

Quote:
It's already happening. Montreal was once Canada's financial center, it's been on a steady trajectory of decline for 40 or 50 years. It did improve under the Charest Liberals but that is over now.
London was the world's financial center at one time too, things change. That doesn't mean Montreal is turning into a 'second or third world backwater city.' I have spent a lot of time in developing countries, to even say something like that is hilarious (although that statement is hardly new).

Quote:
The roads are dilapidated and bridges fall on people, the olympic stadium is an international joke, and at McGill you can't find a clean bathroom without looking hard.
=third world city, amidoingitrite?


Last edited by guest1467: 12-16-2012 at 07:17 PM.
guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 08:06 PM
  #461
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Basically your argument is this:

1) My friend goes to Columbia and got a good deal on housing.
2) Therefore, everyone at Columbia gets a good deal on housing.

Fallacious.
I know several other people who went through Columbia, it's general knowledge that they provide housing.

Your link only says that not everybody gets their first choice. That's also true of private sector housing: you don't always get your first choice. They're just covering their legal ass. When I showed up in Canberra I was turned down for the first private sector apartment I applied for, probably because somebody else applied for it first. It's not a deep thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I just told you that I get a three bedroom apartment for $1200, 30 minutes away from McGill. That is a whopping $400 a month for rent. Last time I checked, 400 is a lot smaller than 700.
Obviously you save money if you have lots of roommates. That is true everywhere as far as I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, I am sure she would be dead...
I don't think it's a certainty, it's merely more likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Two things that aren't really relevant to students.
They're both relevant to students.

Gas is relevant to most people.

International students like to be able to visit their families once a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I can almost guarantee I come from a family with a lower income than you. My parents had a combined income of maybe $35K throughout my life. I just made a priority to get a computer for myself for school, go figure.
OK, so you come from a more privileged background, as I expected from your attitude. My family had a household income of maybe ~25K when I was growing up.

"I needed a laptop, so I bought a laptop" - lol, nobody from an underprivileged background ever, EVER, states that having and needing are equivalent. If you were truly ever underprivileged you would know that just because you need something doesn't mean you have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Then, uhm, buy a computer? I really don't understand this. For a student, a lap top is the number 1 need. Also, if one has an idea at 3 AM, you know, they could pick up a pen and write it down on a piece of paper.
The employer should pay for business expenses. Not just the computer, but also a desk and office and heating and (clean) bathrooms.

Quebec universities need more funding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
And I thought we were talking about people who 'couldn't afford' lap tops. But now you are including traveling? Who the hell can't afford a lap top for school but can regularly go travelling?
I was able to afford both in graduate school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
It just makes no sense to me. Where is the logic here:

I want my university to pay for my lap top!
Well, sorry, we don't have enough funds to buy everyone lap tops. But we have computer laps in the library you are free to use.
Well, that is inconvenient! I quit my PhD!
Absolutely, if you're in an unsupportive environment, you should leave for greener pastures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
London was the world's financial center at one time too, things change. That doesn't mean Montreal is turning into a 'second or third world backwater city.' I have spent a lot of time in developing countries, to even say something like that is hilarious (although that statement is hardly new).
London is still a major financial center and still dominates NY in many categories.

Look at what's happening to Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal right now. They are losing first-world status.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 08:31 PM
  #462
Corky
Registered User
 
Corky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 336
vCash: 500
I’ll jump in the cost of living discussion here and mention that Montreal is cheap when compared to other major and larger cities in the US (Chicago, NY, Los Angeles, Boston) but definitely more expensive than US cities of the same size when factoring in heavy taxes and lower salaries.
You can’t just look at cost of living without looking at after tax average income.
In a way, you are both right. For a student who does not earn much, Montreal is cheap because the lower salaries and higher tax do not come into play (apart from sales tax, of which you get back a portion). For someone that works full-time in a professional type job, Montreal is expensive compared to other cities.
In regards to tuition fee, the students made their own bed last spring and will receive an education that is of less and less quality. I just hope they decrease the services to students and not ask more of taxpayers. I’ll send my kids to Ontario or the US for college.

Corky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 08:43 PM
  #463
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky View Post
I’ll jump in the cost of living discussion here and mention that Montreal is cheap when compared to other major and larger cities in the US (Chicago, NY, Los Angeles, Boston) but definitely more expensive than US cities of the same size when factoring in heavy taxes and lower salaries.
You can’t just look at cost of living without looking at after tax average income.
In a way, you are both right. For a student who does not earn much, Montreal is cheap because the lower salaries and higher tax do not come into play (apart from sales tax, of which you get back a portion). For someone that works full-time in a professional type job, Montreal is expensive compared to other cities.
In regards to tuition fee, the students made their own bed last spring and will receive an education that is of less and less quality. I just hope they decrease the services to students and not ask more of taxpayers. I’ll send my kids to Ontario or the US for college.
That's a good point. Part of the reason that Montreal seems more expensive are lower salaries and higher taxes. Though I maintain many things such as clothing, gas, airplane tickets, rent/housing are indeed more expensive than in the USA.

As a trivial examples, one of my neighbors here in Canberra, Australia works as a cashier at a Zellers-type store. His salary is $22/hour. In Montreal, it would be $10.50 an hour. That has to be accounted for when comparing living costs, which are indeed higher here ... though not twice as high.

Anyway, my discussion with Budha is a little fragmented, so I'll briefly summarize:

Quebec needs to invest more into its universities if it wants a prosperous future, otherwise at sometimes it will fall far behind. Right now, academics in Quebec typically get lesser salaries and business expense allowances than similar academics in US institutions. Facilities are inadequate and dirty. That can always be done on a short-term basis, but if maintained on a long-term basis there will be tremendous socioeconomic costs.

Asking academics to cover many of their business expenses as Budha suggests, which is not done elsewhere, in spite of the fact salaries are lower in Quebec, is not a solution.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 09:48 PM
  #464
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Obviously you save money if you have lots of roommates. That is true everywhere as far as I know.
Having two roommates is hardly having 'lots.' Once again, Montreal has very low rent prices for a city it's size, I don't see why you keep arguing this.

Quote:
They're both relevant to students.

Gas is relevant to most people.

International students like to be able to visit their families once a year.
Less than 10% of university students have cars, therefore, no, gas is not relevant to this discussion.

A once a year flight is hardly something to consider for 'cost of living.'

Quote:
OK, so you come from a more privileged background, as I expected from your attitude. My family had a household income of maybe ~25K when I was growing up.

"I needed a laptop, so I bought a laptop" - lol, nobody from an underprivileged background ever, EVER, states that having and needing are equivalent. If you were truly ever underprivileged you would know that just because you need something doesn't mean you have it.
In what world does a family that makes $35K in Vancouver ever get labelled as 'privileged.'

Any single university student can afford a laptop. Low end laptops cost a whopping $200. I don't care where you grow up, if you can afford university tuition and living away from your family, you can afford a laptop. Christ, the vast majority of students have smart phones that are worth more than low-end laptops.

Quote:
The employer should pay for business expenses. Not just the computer, but also a desk and office and heating and (clean) bathrooms.

Quebec universities need more funding.
Obviously they pay for desks, offices and heating. What the **** universities in Quebec are you talking about?

And no, they should not pay for personal computers.

Quote:
I was able to afford both in graduate school.
: laugh:

Wait a second here...so what happened to the poor little graduate student that cant pay for their own laptop and are eating peanut butter and kraft dinner?

You are something else.

Quote:
Absolutely, if you're in an unsupportive environment, you should leave for greener pastures.
The grass is always greener on the other side.

Quote:
London is still a major financial center and still dominates NY in many categories.

Look at what's happening to Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal right now. They are losing first-world status.
And Montreal is still dominant in categories for Canada, what's your point?

Greece, maybe. Spain, Italy, Portugal? Not a chance. These are high-medium income countries, not even comparable to developing countries.

You know, it's really funny. You seem to think I come from a privileged background and have a pretentious 'attitude.' It doesn't seem like you have ever set foot in a true third world country, considering you seem to think Montreal, Rome, Lisbon and Madrid are losing their 'first-world status.' Go live in Bogota or Lima for a year, and come back to me and say Montreal is turning into a 'backwater' city.


Last edited by guest1467: 12-16-2012 at 10:08 PM.
guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 10:11 PM
  #465
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Less than 10% of university students have cars, therefore, no, gas is not relevant to this discussion.
Is this an actual statistic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
A once a year flight is hardly something to consider for 'cost of living.'
It's substantial. The difference of a few hundred dollars a year works out to a full 1-2% of annual income for graduate students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
And no, they should not pay for personal computers.
Nobody suggested they should pay for personal computers, though I may have erroneously used that term.

They should pay for work computers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Wait a second here...so what happened to the poor little graduate student that cant pay for their own laptop and are eating peanut butter and kraft dinner?

You are something else.
Work on your reading skills.

I was poor growing up. Unlike you, I didn't have a laptop.

I then avoided kraft dinner and peanut butter by going to graduate school in the USA. We were apparently ~$6,000 above the poverty line. If I had gone to university in Montreal, I would have been poorer. More kraft dinner, or possibly, simply more debt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Low end laptops cost a whopping $200.
You can't do research on a $200 laptop.

I just checked on amazon. The cheapest laptop I found was $249.00, and it comes with a 16 gigabyte hard drive. It will be filled up before you even get any work done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
The grass is always greener on the other side.
Within a year his salary doubled, his job became more interesting, yes the grass was greener.

When he was a graduate student, he was getting under $20,000/year to live in Montreal, and his adviser wouldn't even buy him a work computer. The grass was not greener on that side my friend. The grass was barren. Thus, he left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You know, it's really funny. You seem to think I come from a privileged background and have a pretentious 'attitude.' It doesn't seem like you have ever set foot in a true third world country, considering you seem to think Montreal, Rome, Lisbon and Madrid are losing their 'first-world status.' Go live in Bogota or Lima for a year, and come back to me and say Montreal is turning into a 'backwater' city.
I went to Chile and Argentina a few years ago, not that far off from Peru and Colombia. I was actually travelling there and interacting with people. I didn't go in to build a school or some other pseudo-volounteer work with some other white folks like many do.

Anyway things can change. Some countries move up, some move down. Your belief that a first wold country can never fall behind is erroneous.

Look what happened to Russia after the fall of the USSR.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-16-2012 at 10:19 PM.
DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:12 PM
  #466
The Russian General
Força Portugal
 
The Russian General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MTL
Posts: 11,551
vCash: 500
Did you just say a combined income of 35K/year is privileged?! WTH.

Also, Quebec universities are more funded by the government per student than in the rest of Canada.

http://m.ledevoir.com/politique/queb...sous-financees

Also, no way in hell Lisbon is a second world city. You're absolutely out of your mind.

The Russian General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:16 PM
  #467
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is this an actual statistic?
No.

Quote:
It's substantial. The difference of a few hundred dollars a year works out to a full 1-2% of annual income for graduate students.
Most international students don't even pay their own flight fares to visit their parents.

Quote:
Nobody suggested they should pay for personal computers, though I may have erroneously used that term.

They should pay for work computers.
And for high intensive studies, they do. But for most, it is not necessary. Why should a university pay for a 'work computer' for a masters in philosophy or political science?

Quote:
Work on your reading skills.

I was poor growing up. Unlike you, I didn't have a laptop.
I bought my first laptop with my own money at age 20. The same year I entered my first year of college education.

Quote:
I then avoided kraft dinner and peanut butter by going to graduate school in the USA. We were apparently ~$6,000 above the poverty line. If I had gone to university in Montreal, I would have been poorer. More kraft dinner, or possibly, simply more debt.
My roommate, or my ex-girlfriend, who both are graduate students at McGill do not eat Kraft dinner or anything comparable.

Quote:
You can't do research on a $200 laptop.

I just checked on amazon. The cheapest laptop I found was $249.00, and it comes with a 16 gigabyte hard drive. It will be filled up before you even get any work done.
So then buy one worth $1000. You have a salary of $25K, you can afford it. If you need extra money, get a position as a TA or RA.

Quote:
Within a year his salary doubled, his job became more interesting, yes the grass was greener.

When he was a graduate student, he was getting under $20,000/year to live in Montreal, and his adviser wouldn't even buy him a work computer. The grass was not greener on that side my friend. The grass was barren. Thus, he left.
Good for him, I am sure there was someone to replace him instantly after he left. Maybe it was someone who wouldn't leave because the department wouldn't buy him a computer.

Quote:
I went to Chile and Argentina a few years ago, not that far off from Peru and Colombia. I was actually travelling there and interacting with people. I didn't go in to build a school or some other pseudo-volounteer work with some other white folks like many do.
Actually, they are quite far off from Colombia and Peru. Chile has the highest income per capita in South America, while Buenos Aires is a far cry from Bogota or Lima.

Are you seriously looking down on people who do developmental work in developing countries?

Quote:
Anyway things can change. Some countries move up, some move down. Your belief that a first wold country can never fall behind is erroneous.

Look what happened to Russia after the fall of the USSR.
I never said they can never fall behind, your examples are just erroneous. Southern Europe never had comparable income levels to Western and Northern European countries in modern history. Nor are they 'losing their first-world status.'

Russia never had the living standards of Western Europe, so once again, erroneous. And even after the fall of communism, the living standards in Russia were still higher than 80% of developing countries.

BTW, check out this ranking, guess who made the top 10? And that 'quality of living' index, you know the one that distinguishes cities from first class cities and 'backwater cities,' Montreal has one of the highest scores in the entire world:

http://www.topuniversities.com/stude...tudent-cities/

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:35 PM
  #468
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
I am still having trouble understanding something:

Apparently in Ohio State, the stipends are so high that they can afford laptops and regular travel.

But at McGill, the graduate students are eating kraft dinner, cannot afford a laptop, and can't see their parents once a year.

But wait, there's more. Apparently, stipends at Ohio St. are only $6,000 above the poverty line. Either something isn't making sense here, or DA is full of ****ing ****.

Oh, but it gets better. Take a look at average stipends at Ohio St:

http://www.gradsch.osu.edu/Depo/PDF/...demic_Year.pdf

Oh my, averages at Ohio St. are less than McGill.


Last edited by guest1467: 12-16-2012 at 11:42 PM.
guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:46 PM
  #469
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I am still having trouble understanding something:

Apparently in Ohio State, the stipends are so high that they can afford laptops and regular travel.

But at McGill, the graduate students are eating kraft dinner, cannot afford a laptop, and can't see their parents once a year.
I already told you.

I got ~25K towards the end, it was ~22K in 2007. The laptop and work computer was paid for. I paid for a trip home once or twice a year. The poverty line there was ~17K or ~18K, don't remember.

At McGill, the comparable amount is ~22K for the same department, though Montreal is a much more expensive city than Columbus.

Anyway, I take back the Kraft Dinner part. I think debt is a more likely outcome. Lots of people I knew were going into debt while doing graduate degrees in Quebec. People choose debt over Kraft dinner, which is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
http://www.gradsch.osu.edu/Depo/PDF/...demic_Year.pdf

Oh my, averages at Ohio St. are less than McGill.
I think those numbers are based on 9 months of salary. That works out exactly right for my department.

Most people got the additional 3 months. Admittedly, I had a roommate in the English department, and she told me some of her friends didn't get summer salary.

ETA:

I just checked your link again. It's as I thought, those are the 9 month salaries (some are 10 month salaries), not the annual salaries. From the first page:

Data for Benchmark/CIC institutions represents information for 9/10 month appointment

Why don't you read your own link?


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-16-2012 at 11:56 PM.
DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2012, 11:53 PM
  #470
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
Did you just say a combined income of 35K/year is privileged?!
No, I said relatively privileged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
Also, no way in hell Lisbon is a second world city. You're absolutely out of your mind.
I never called it a second-world city. I said that Portugal is losing first-world status. I said nothing about Lisbon.

Youth unemployment in Portugal is now 39%
http://ycharts.com/indicators/portug...yment_rate_lfs

It may be first world now, but it won't be for long if they don't fix their problems.

I know some people don't follow politics, but I'm surprised to see you guys have never heard of the economic crisis in Europe.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2012, 12:03 AM
  #471
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, I said relatively privileged.


I never called it a second-world city. I said that Portugal is losing first-world status. I said nothing about Lisbon.

Youth unemployment in Portugal is now 39%
http://ycharts.com/indicators/portug...yment_rate_lfs

It may be first world now, but it won't be for long if they don't fix their problems.

I know some people don't follow politics, but I'm surprised to see you guys have never heard of the economic crisis in Europe.
Quote:
The most marginalized group of young people are those who not only don’t have a job but are no longer in school, either. In the jargon of economists, these are the so-called NEETs, youngsters not in employment, education or training.

Their numbers have been rising everywhere, but they are especially prevalent in the U.S. According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in Paris, which has the best data on the subject, 14.8% of young Americans qualified as NEETs in the first quarter of 2011 (the most recent period available), up from 12.1% in the same period in 2007. In the E.U. as a whole, the figure was 13.2%, up from 11.5% in 2007.

Within the European numbers there are big variations. In Germany, Austria and the four Scandinavian countries of Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland, the figure is below 10%. Spain and Greece have high rates, as would be expected, of 17.6% and 18.2%, respectively, but the worst performer in Europe is actually Italy, with 19.5% of young people out of work and no longer in school or training. (A full set of statistics is available in the OECD’s latest Employment Outlook.)

Several factors set apart the countries with a relatively low proportion of NEETs. They all have particularly extensive professional training programs for young people. Germany’s apprenticeship schemes are the best known; they start early, at age 15 or 16, and mix classroom time with practical experience on the factory floor. The training lasts between one and a half and three years, and by the time they finish, most apprentices move straight into full-time employment. Some of them even end up as CEOs — Hermann Josef Strenger of the chemical giant Bayer, for example.

These nations also have state-funded higher-education systems that are virtually free, and so students have no need to go into debt, unlike in the U.S. And some of the Scandinavian nations, like Denmark, act tough with young people who refuse to participate in training programs — including reducing or cutting their unemployment benefits.

On the other hand, the figures are so high for Greece and Spain in part because, compared with the U.S. and many of their European neighbors, a smaller proportion of young people are actually on the job market — about 30%, compared with 55% in the U.S.

“An unemployment rate of over 50% in Greece and Spain only indicates what is occurring among a relatively small fraction of the total youth population. If the other Greek and Spanish youth were, for example, participating in higher education, there would be less concern about their economic fortunes,” says Francis Fong, economist at the Canadian firm TD Economics, in a note that explains the NEET phenomenon. “Focusing solely on the unemployment rate can give an inflated view of the distress among the entire youth population.”

So why are young people in the U.S. so affected by this phenomenon? Jacob Funk Kirkegaard, a research fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, says the NEET numbers probably reflect the depth of the labor-market contraction in the U.S. during the financial crisis, which has actually been worse than in parts of Europe. At the same time, “American youth have fewer education and training opportunities than in Europe — especially following the dramatic cuts to U.S. state and local government education budgets during the crisis.”
http://business.time.com/2012/11/05/...m-than-europe/

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2012, 12:06 AM
  #472
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
No.
OK, so don't bring it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Most international students don't even pay their own flight fares to visit their parents.
Does Santa Claus pay for it?

I went home once or twice a year. Trust me, I had to pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
for high intensive studies, they do. But for most, it is not necessary. Why should a university pay for a 'work computer' for a masters in philosophy or political science?
They probably don't need as good a work computer. You still want a separate computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
bought my first laptop with my own money at age 20. The same year I entered my first year of college education.
Good for you that you could afford a laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
then buy one worth $1000. You have a salary of $25K, you can afford it. If you need extra money, get a position as a TA or RA.
By all means -- don't cover business expenses. See what that does for recruitement for retainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
for him, I am sure there was someone to replace him instantly after he left. Maybe it was someone who wouldn't leave because the department wouldn't buy him a computer.
Extremely unlikely they're able to find anybody good in a non-supportive environment. In general most graduate students don't work (it's a tough job), and if they're being idiots they will have an even lower success rate.

My friend left for other reasons as well. The computer is just one example. It was a general non-supportive environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
you seriously looking down on people who do developmental work in developing countries?
Depends on the organization.

Most people from third world countries I speak to have been clear: these organizations often do more harm than good.

For example, I used to think Mother Theresa was the embodiment of the good. I then met people from India... they told me a different story. They reviled her and all the suffering she caused. I then began to take a more critical look at the universally golden image of western NGOs presented to us by the mainstream media.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2012, 12:18 AM
  #473
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I think I'm impressed you'd have the balls to post an article that undermines your position.

The situation in the PIIGS appears to be a full 10 percentage points worse than that in Germany, Scandinavian countries, etc; with the USA being intermediate between the two extremes.

I'm surprised the situation in Italy is even worse than that in Spain and Greece, I thought it was the other way around.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2012, 12:26 AM
  #474
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think I'm impressed you'd have the balls to post an article that undermines your position.

The situation in the PIIGS appears to be a full 10 percentage points worse than that in Germany, Scandinavian countries, etc; with the USA being intermediate between the two extremes.

I'm surprised the situation in Italy is even worse than that in Spain and Greece, I thought it was the other way around.
I thought you would understand the general premise of the article. In that this is a global trend among Western countries, not exclusive to any particular country. I also would have thought you would have realized how short-sighted it is to take those unemployment numbers and use them for arguments, as the article outlines.

The PIIGS never compared favourably to Northern and Western European nations. Unless you want to go back hundreds of years.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2012, 12:38 AM
  #475
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,310
vCash: 500
To backtrack:

I think it would be good for Quebec to have globally competitive universities. Part of the requirements for that is to offer competitive salaries and work environment. Don't penny pinch on work computers and salaries and infrastructure when comparable schools do not.

You on the other hand, do not seem to disagree with the desirability of having globally competitive universities, but you seem to think it can be done by cutting wages to some of the staff, and reducing spending on infrastructure. You have argued that employees should not be given work computers on the basis that they probably already have personal computers.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.