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Jordan Staal traded to Carolina for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 8th overall

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Old
12-15-2012, 01:44 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Rangers would not have traded McDonagh for Staal given Staal's contract situation. They probably offered something similar to what Carolina offered which was a replacement 3C in Dubinsky, a pick and a good prospect. Carolina just had a much better pick to offer.
The Rangers giving up McDonagh would be assuming they could resign him. Obviously once it got out that Jordan was going to be a Cane one way or the other, no team would give up what Shero wanted.

I bet Phoenix was inquiring as well. Staal for Yandle.

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12-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #552
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The Rangers giving up McDonagh would be assuming they could resign him. Obviously once it got out that Jordan was going to be a Cane one way or the other, no team would give up what Shero wanted.

I bet Phoenix was inquiring as well. Staal for Yandle.
Interesting idea, but no. Not the kind of D that we need. What I would have liked to have seen was a Staal for Bozak, Schenn and the 5th pick, but I don't think that would have been accepted. Then again, Burke is an idiot, and he REALLY wanted Staal, so maybe he would bite on that.

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12-15-2012, 04:18 PM
  #553
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This was a really good trade for Pittsburgh and Carolina. The Penguins made the right move. Staal was going there no matter what.Sutter,Pouliot and Dumoulin are way better then getting nothing for him.
This is the big lie. The Pens would have gotten:

1. A better chance to win the cup *this year*. Staal has been great in the playoffs..

2. A year to convince him to stay.

3. At worst, a chance to trade him at the deadline if they couldn't convince him to stay. The risk of holding him for the year was actually very low.

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12-15-2012, 04:22 PM
  #554
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This is the big lie. The Pens would have gotten:

1. A better chance to win the cup *this year*. Staal has been great in the playoffs..

2. A year to convince him to stay.

3. At worst, a chance to trade him at the deadline if they couldn't convince him to stay. The risk of holding him for the year was actually very low.
1. There isn't going to be a cup this year. I wouldn't have risked holding on to him during a lockout that could just scrap his final year and have him walk for nothing

2. He was going to leave Pittsburgh and go to Carolina. There isn't any arguments there, he was going to do that, 100%.

3. I'd much rather take a young 3C and 2 top D prospects than just the young 3C, thank you very much. There's also the lockout issue.

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12-15-2012, 04:23 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
The Rangers giving up McDonagh would be assuming they could resign him. Obviously once it got out that Jordan was going to be a Cane one way or the other, no team would give up what Shero wanted.
.
It wouldn't matter. The Rangers made it clear in their negotiations for Nash that they were never going to give up a core younger player like McDonagh. And Nash is signed for a while.

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12-15-2012, 04:29 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
This is the big lie. The Pens would have gotten:

1. A better chance to win the cup *this year*. Staal has been great in the playoffs..

2. A year to convince him to stay.

3. At worst, a chance to trade him at the deadline if they couldn't convince him to stay. The risk of holding him for the year was actually very low.
He wasn't going to stay. He made it very clear that he wanted a bigger role that he was never going to get here. There was no convincing him.

We got more for him now than at the trade deadline. And how does that work if we are, say, in the top of the conference, Staal is a top performer, and a very important key to the team? Do you still trade him away, or do you let him walk for nothing. Or what if he gets hurt?

Shero played it right.

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12-15-2012, 04:30 PM
  #557
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1. There isn't going to be a cup this year. I wouldn't have risked holding on to him during a lockout that could just scrap his final year and have him walk for nothing
You don't know that there isn't going to be a cup this year. And the Pens certainly didn't know this when they made the trade.

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2. He was going to leave Pittsburgh and go to Carolina. There isn't any arguments there, he was going to do that, 100%.
And you know this exactly how? You a close confident of Staal? You a min reader? You know the future and what is going to happen?

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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
3. I'd much rather take a young 3C and 2 top D prospects than just the young 3C, thank you very much. There's also the lockout issue.
[/QUOTE]They

For Christ's sake, the lockout had nothing to do with the trade. You think anyone was actually planning their team around a lock out? Don't be ridiculous. It's 20-20 hindsight to bring up the lockout. If there is a playoff, then Pens are far far more likely to win the cup with Staal than without him.

And you have no idea what the Pens could get at the deadline. Remember, that's when the likes of Paul Gausted gets you a first.

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12-15-2012, 04:36 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
You don't know that there isn't going to be a cup this year. And the Pens certainly didn't know this when they made the trade.



And you know this exactly how? You a close confident of Staal? You a min reader? You know the future and what is going to happen?

They

For Christ's sake, the lockout had nothing to do with the trade. You think anyone was actually planning their team around a lock out? Don't be ridiculous. It's 20-20 hindsight to bring up the lockout. If there is a playoff, then Pens are far far more likely to win the cup with Staal than without him.

And you have no idea what the Pens could get at the deadline. Remember, that's when the likes of Paul Gausted gets you a first.
Teams may not have planned for a lockout, but they did plan for a new CBA. That's why so many teams are so far under the cap.

You have an EA Sports mentality working here.

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12-15-2012, 04:37 PM
  #559
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You don't know that there isn't going to be a cup this year. And the Pens certainly didn't know this when they made the trade.



And you know this exactly how? You a close confident of Staal? You a min reader? You know the future and what is going to happen?


For Christ's sake, the lockout had nothing to do with the trade. You think anyone was actually planning their team around a lock out? Don't be ridiculous. It's 20-20 hindsight to bring up the lockout. If there is a playoff, then Pens are far far more likely to win the cup with Staal than without him.

And you have no idea what the Pens could get at the deadline. Remember, that's when the likes of Paul Gausted gets you a first.
Well, he did say that he wasn't interested in making a long term commitment in Pittsburgh, and he said he wanted to play in Carolina, so maybe he was just trolling us and didn't mean it . Seriously though, your post was just idiotic.

EVERYONE knew the CBA was going to end, and I bet quite a few had a hunch that a lockout was coming. Why do you think the Pens didn't go crazy with their extra cap space. Why do you think the Pens didn't sign a winger when they desperately needed one? They had the space, they chose not to.

And yes, the lockout did effect the Staal deal. If they would have held onto Staal, they would be risking losing him for nothing after this locked out season. They would never risk that.

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12-15-2012, 04:38 PM
  #560
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I'll also add, Shero is playing good odds here. Average defenseman make vastly more money than their forward counterparts. If you constantly have good young defensive talent coming into the system, you will have money to afford the forwards you want, not mentioning, defensemen fetch the most in trades.

If an organization can develop defensemen efficiently, they can have a very cost effective player for 4-6 years, then trade them away for much more than a 1 for 1 swap (as we've seen with Goligoski), and then repeat the process.

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12-15-2012, 04:39 PM
  #561
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Teams may not have planned for a lockout, but they did plan for a new CBA. That's why so many teams are so far under the cap.

You have an EA Sports mentality working here.
Exactly, the Pens had so much cap space. The lockout and salary cap reductions are why they didn't go crazy and sign someone like Semin to a bloated contract.

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12-15-2012, 04:40 PM
  #562
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Well, he did say that he wasn't interested in making a long term commitment in Pittsburgh, and he said he wanted to play in Carolina, so maybe he was just trolling us and didn't mean it . Seriously though, your post was just idiotic.

EVERYONE knew the CBA was going to end, and I bet quite a few had a hunch that a lockout was coming. Why do you think the Pens didn't go crazy with their extra cap space. Why do you think the Pens didn't sign a winger when they desperately needed one? They had the space, they chose not to.

And yes, the lockout did effect the Staal deal. If they would have held onto Staal, they would be risking losing him for nothing after this locked out season. They would never risk that.
I can't exactly remember how the last lockout worked, but I don't think this season counts towards any player's contract. Maybe someone else could clarify.

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12-15-2012, 04:42 PM
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I can't exactly remember how the last lockout worked, but I don't think this season counts towards any player's contract. Maybe someone else could clarify.
This one does. That's why people like Getzlaf and Perry are getting so much attention. They are essentially losing the last year and last chance to re-sign the 2 due to the lockout. Luckily, the Pens aren't losing anyone major after this year, so it's not an issue for us. But for the Ducks, it couldn't be worse.

I found this out from Bob Mackenzie, I tweeted him about Semin, and he said in the event of a lockout for a whole year, Semin would be a free agent again next summer.

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12-15-2012, 05:45 PM
  #564
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I'll also add, Shero is playing good odds here. Average defenseman make vastly more money than their forward counterparts.
Do they, though? Vastly more? I'm not sure what your definition of an average defenseman or forward is, but I'm not sure recent signings, whether it be FA or teams re-signing their RFAs agree with your theory. And does it apply just to "average" players, or are we including star defenseman and star forwards?

Is a young stud blueliner like Drew Doughty making vastly more than a young stud forward like Steve Stamkos? How about Erik Karlsson making vastly more than Taylor Hall? Even on their own team, a guy like Toews is costing Chicago over $6 million per year while their equivalent (ie. top defenseman) in Keith is making almost a million less per season.

In all the examples, the defenseman is either making less than his counterpart, or slightly more. But I don't see evidence that suggests a defenseman will make vastly more than his counterpart forward.

Even if you want to restrict it to the cost of acquring FAs, some recent FA signings with "average" forwards like Ville Leno, PA Parenteau, and Brooks Laich are costing around $4 to $4.5 million. That's around the same ball park (if not more) as guys like Zbynek Michalek, Francois Beauchemin, and Dennis Seidenberg make.

The only exception that immediately comes to mind is how much TBay signed Matt Carle for this past July. But even then, that had more to do with how limited the actual options were after Suter signed, as well as TBay's desperation to shore up their blueline. But he seems to be an anomaly rather than the rule when it comes to defensemen costing more than forwards.

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12-15-2012, 06:17 PM
  #565
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Do they, though?
You are correct in your thinking. Just browsing through capgeek shows of the top 25 salaries, 18 of them are forwards and similar results on an on down the pay scale.

For example, in a bigger slice of players, the top 50 forwards are more than a 1.5 million per player than the top 50 d-man (this could be a bit off since I'm just taking a surface look at it but I did do some math at the end here). There are twice as many top-end paid forwards (more 8 mil) compared to d-man. Forwards are also paid more each step along the line. There are more than 50 forwards making over 5 mil salary compared to 25 d-man. Since I was kind of bored, I looked at some of the middle-level deals (the 40-50th highest paid players at each position) and it comes out as 5.4 per for forwards to 4.0 for d-man.


Last edited by Sivek: 12-15-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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12-15-2012, 06:19 PM
  #566
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Do they, though? Vastly more? I'm not sure what your definition of an average defenseman or forward is, but I'm not sure recent signings, whether it be FA or teams re-signing their RFAs agree with your theory. And does it apply just to "average" players, or are we including star defenseman and star forwards?

Is a young stud blueliner like Drew Doughty making vastly more than a young stud forward like Steve Stamkos? How about Erik Karlsson making vastly more than Taylor Hall? Even on their own team, a guy like Toews is costing Chicago over $6 million per year while their equivalent (ie. top defenseman) in Keith is making almost a million less per season.

In all the examples, the defenseman is either making less than his counterpart, or slightly more. But I don't see evidence that suggests a defenseman will make vastly more than his counterpart forward.

Even if you want to restrict it to the cost of acquring FAs, some recent FA signings with "average" forwards like Ville Leno, PA Parenteau, and Brooks Laich are costing around $4 to $4.5 million. That's around the same ball park (if not more) as guys like Zbynek Michalek, Francois Beauchemin, and Dennis Seidenberg make.

The only exception that immediately comes to mind is how much TBay signed Matt Carle for this past July. But even then, that had more to do with how limited the actual options were after Suter signed, as well as TBay's desperation to shore up their blueline. But he seems to be an anomaly rather than the rule when it comes to defensemen costing more than forwards.
If you look at defensemen on the whole, you have to pay a dear price to even get just simply good ones. There aren't many who can play big mins, and teams will pay for them, both in terms of salary and in terms of trade. I look at a guy like Commodore who was never really all that great. The guy always found a home, and he always made money. Jordan Leopold is another one that comes to mind. You can also see how many albatross defensemen are currently in the NHL in terms of defensemen to support my point.

I mean, let's just use our puck movers that we've moved thus far. Ryan Whitney and Alex Goligoski have fetched us Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Eric Tangradi, and Matt Niskanen. 2 puck movers for 3 wingers and a defenseman.

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12-15-2012, 07:31 PM
  #567
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If you look at defensemen on the whole, you have to pay a dear price to even get just simply good ones. There aren't many who can play big mins, and teams will pay for them, both in terms of salary and in terms of trade. I look at a guy like Commodore who was never really all that great. The guy always found a home, and he always made money. Jordan Leopold is another one that comes to mind. You can also see how many albatross defensemen are currently in the NHL in terms of defensemen to support my point.

I mean, let's just use our puck movers that we've moved thus far. Ryan Whitney and Alex Goligoski have fetched us Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Eric Tangradi, and Matt Niskanen. 2 puck movers for 3 wingers and a defenseman.
So you're referring more to the cost to acquire a defenseman in a trade rather than how much they actually cost in dollar amounts to sign/re-sign?

If that's the case, I'm still not sure that's entirely true. You brought up the Leopold example, but didn't Ponikarovsky that same year essentially cost the Pens the same to acquire? I know Caputi's a bit of a joke now in hindsight, but at the time Burke could have got a 2nd rounder for Poni but opted for a further along prospect instead. That's essentially the cost it took to land Leopold.

Let's not forget the one time the Pens actually landed a premiere forward in a trade. While again in hindsight the players/picks we ended up giving up to land Marian Hossa didn't end up being that big a deal, at the time that was quite a huge amount to give up for a rental forward.

Also, don't forget that a guy like Paul Gaustad (pending UFA who's no better than a 3rd line center) went for a 1st round pick a couple of seasons ago, and Mike Fisher went for even more than that. Heck, the running joke seems to be that Dominic Moore basically lands whatever team that signs him a 2nd round pick at the deadline.

So while it might cost less to acquire a fringe forward than a fringe defenseman (ie. a depth forward compared to a bottom pairing defenseman, ala the Commodore example), I think when you start talking about quality players, I don't think it costs any more to land a D than a F.

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12-15-2012, 07:42 PM
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Here's another thing, there are a lot more forwards in the NHL like Forsberg and Grigs than there are D like Pouliot. That's why I'm okay with that pick. And anyways, whenever Pouliot is in the NHL, we could either trade him or trade another D to get a winger. I don't see the issue. And we also have Bennett, who's gonna be great.

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12-15-2012, 07:43 PM
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So you're referring more to the cost to acquire a defenseman in a trade rather than how much they actually cost in dollar amounts to sign/re-sign?

If that's the case, I'm still not sure that's entirely true. You brought up the Leopold example, but didn't Ponikarovsky that same year essentially cost the Pens the same to acquire? I know Caputi's a bit of a joke now in hindsight, but at the time Burke could have got a 2nd rounder for Poni but opted for a further along prospect instead. That's essentially the cost it took to land Leopold.

Let's not forget the one time the Pens actually landed a premiere forward in a trade. While again in hindsight the players/picks we ended up giving up to land Marian Hossa didn't end up being that big a deal, at the time that was quite a huge amount to give up for a rental forward.

Also, don't forget that a guy like Paul Gaustad (pending UFA who's no better than a 3rd line center) went for a 1st round pick a couple of seasons ago, and Mike Fisher went for even more than that. Heck, the running joke seems to be that Dominic Moore basically lands whatever team that signs him a 2nd round pick at the deadline.

So while it might cost less to acquire a fringe forward than a fringe defenseman (ie. a depth forward compared to a bottom pairing defenseman, ala the Commodore example), I think when you start talking about quality players, I don't think it costs any more to land a D than a F.
Good puck moving defensemen are probably the 1b hardest asset to find next to a 1st line center. There aren't a lot of ones who are great offensively, and good defensively. You typically have one or the other. Very few guys bring a package of both. Those guys who can be good defensively, yet put up solid point totals fetch a premium package in trade, as I've shown with our two offensive defensemen.

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12-16-2012, 12:17 PM
  #570
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I would take Toews in a do-over, assuming EJ still goes 1st. How can you not? He's captain material, as good or better than Staal in all 3 zones, and seems like he's versatile enough to play wing too.

Yes, he is versatile enough to play wing. In fact, he spent most of his time with the Canadian 2010 Olympic team on the wing, where he was the team's best player and MVP of the tournament. He is a character guy, too, and I have no doubt he would happily have accepted a spot on the wing, and would have excelled there, too.


I like Staal and appreciate that he helped us in a Cup run, but having Toews on our team along with Sid & Malkin is Dynasty material.


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Jordan Staal still isn't done developing. This year, the ceiling has been completely blown off for him. He's going to be given premium mins with some quality linemates, I'd imagine. If he can pot 30-40 goals, and be a PPG guy, I'd rather have him over Toews.

Anyone (not picking on you), but anyone who would take Staal over Toews (concussion issues aside) is on drugs, or knows nothing about hockey. Staal *might* become a more productive player and approach Toews stats, but Toews is a much better player, and has a whole host of leadership, character & intangible elements that Staal doesn't have. That's why Toews is a superstar and Staal is just a very good player.


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Dumoulin is the best defensive defenseman we got. I can say that and not think twice about it. As impressive as Bennett has been offensively, Dumoulin has been that impressive defensively for me.

Well, technically Harrington is our best defensive Dman prospect, but I am high on Dumoulin, as well. I think the addition of Dumoulin & Maatta this summer make Despres expendible by trade.

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12-16-2012, 12:38 PM
  #571
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Here's another thing, there are a lot more forwards in the NHL like Forsberg and Grigs than there are D like Pouliot. That's why I'm okay with that pick. And anyways, whenever Pouliot is in the NHL, we could either trade him or trade another D to get a winger. I don't see the issue. And we also have Bennett, who's gonna be great.
Yeah i agree. Pouliot can fetch us alot in a trade or we can keep him. Im really excited about Beau Bennett, i think he has the potential to be great.

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12-16-2012, 12:43 PM
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Dumoulin is the best defensive defenseman we got. I can say that and not think twice about it. As impressive as Bennett has been offensively, Dumoulin has been that impressive defensively for me.
Scott Harrington is a stay at home type too. Dumoulin is our second best IMO. I really like them both though.

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12-16-2012, 09:59 PM
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I'm going to hold off on Harrington until he's in the AHL, but I can see him being our best defensive defenseman.

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12-17-2012, 05:21 AM
  #574
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Here's another thing, there are a lot more forwards in the NHL like Forsberg and Grigs than there are D like Pouliot. That's why I'm okay with that pick. And anyways, whenever Pouliot is in the NHL, we could either trade him or trade another D to get a winger. I don't see the issue. And we also have Bennett, who's gonna be great.
Games Goals Assists Points
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50

That's it. Keep on denying reality. If Grigorenko were a Pens prospect, everyone would be going absolutely crazy and have already appointed him the next Kovalchuk. The Pens don't pick him and his just another nobody.

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12-17-2012, 05:39 AM
  #575
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Games Goals Assists Points
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50
Grigorenko 30 29 21 50

That's it. Keep on denying reality. If Grigorenko were a Pens prospect, everyone would be going absolutely crazy and have already appointed him the next Kovalchuk. The Pens don't pick him and his just another nobody.
Wow, he has 50 points in the Q, which is the weakest league, as a player that is pretty much older than everyone else. Really good

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