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University/College Questions Part IV

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Old
12-17-2012, 07:00 AM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
Did you just say a combined income of 35K/year is privileged?! WTH.

Also, Quebec universities are more funded by the government per student than in the rest of Canada.

http://m.ledevoir.com/politique/queb...sous-financees

Also, no way in hell Lisbon is a second world city. You're absolutely out of your mind.
You do know that this study was invalidated because it conveniently did not include research subsidies for the rest of Canada but included them for Quebec. If you use the same basis for both set of universities, you get a result that universities in Qc are massively underfunded compared to the ROC. Basically, the author wanted to prove a point and decided to fudge the numbers in order to do so. This is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

This also does not take into account the fact that universities in the rest of Canada are given a lot more donations from the local population than in Quebec. This is something that should not surprise anyone considering the high income tax in Qc.

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12-17-2012, 07:06 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
To backtrack:

I think it would be good for Quebec to have globally competitive universities. Part of the requirements for that is to offer competitive salaries and work environment. Don't penny pinch on work computers and salaries and infrastructure when comparable schools do not.
This, but the increase in investment need to be funded by the students as the average QC taxpayer is already contributing enough to our "wonderful" social model. There is basically no more room for tax increases considering the highest bracket at 49.97% plus city tax plus highest sales tax in Canada plus highest oil tax in Canada plus highest alcohol cost in Canada.

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12-17-2012, 07:15 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
You do know that this study was invalidated because it conveniently did not include research subsidies for the rest of Canada but included them for Quebec. If you use the same basis for both set of universities, you get a result that universities in Qc are massively underfunded compared to the ROC. Basically, the author wanted to prove a point and decided to fudge the numbers in order to do so. This is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

This also does not take into account the fact that universities in the rest of Canada are given a lot more donations from the local population than in Quebec. This is something that should not surprise anyone considering the high income tax in Qc.
Holy damn are you serious? Intellectual dishonesty indeed !!!

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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
This, but the increase in investment need to be funded by the students as the average QC taxpayer is already contributing enough to our "wonderful" social model. There is basically no more room for tax increases considering the highest bracket at 49.97% plus city tax plus highest sales tax in Canada plus highest oil tax in Canada plus highest alcohol cost in Canada.
Yeah it's pretty bad. If Quebec could have Cadillac social programs to go with the highest taxes in the western hemisphere it would be one thing; but it instead has horrible hospitals, dilapidated infrastructure, a mediocre public school system, etc etc etc.

The future doesn't look good. I didn't envy Charest because he looked like he was serious about trying to improve things. Marois? I don't know that she realizes there's a problem.

Something has to give. There are no easy solutions.

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12-17-2012, 10:40 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
To backtrack:

I think it would be good for Quebec to have globally competitive universities. Part of the requirements for that is to offer competitive salaries and work environment. Don't penny pinch on work computers and salaries and infrastructure when comparable schools do not.

You on the other hand, do not seem to disagree with the desirability of having globally competitive universities, but you seem to think it can be done by cutting wages to some of the staff, and reducing spending on infrastructure. You have argued that employees should not be given work computers on the basis that they probably already have personal computers.
Unlike you, I don't consider an unlimited stream of funds coming into the coffers of universities. Instead, I realize that there is always going to be shortages in funds. The best universities in the world get the most of out the money they have, McGill has done this for decades. Canadian universities receive less funding, charge lower tuition but yet we have two in the top 20 in the world, and 3 in the top 40.

One of the ways you can deal with lack of funding is to offset the costs onto the students or workers. Laptop computers have become so common place and affordable, they do not need to supply every worker with a computer. Why buy chalk or felt pens en masse costing thousands of dollars when you can get the profs to buy one box for the year. Why run a student kitchen when you can rent out the space to a catering company?

These are just things that universities have to do, that every university has to do.

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12-17-2012, 04:58 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Unlike you, I don't consider an unlimited stream of funds coming into the coffers of universities. Instead, I realize that there is always going to be shortages in funds. The best universities in the world get the most of out the money they have, McGill has done this for decades. Canadian universities receive less funding, charge lower tuition but yet we have two in the top 20 in the world, and 3 in the top 40.

One of the ways you can deal with lack of funding is to offset the costs onto the students or workers. Laptop computers have become so common place and affordable, they do not need to supply every worker with a computer. Why buy chalk or felt pens en masse costing thousands of dollars when you can get the profs to buy one box for the year. Why run a student kitchen when you can rent out the space to a catering company?

These are just things that universities have to do, that every university has to do.
You don't save money by not buying laptops, you just piss people off by likely being the only top-500 university in the world not to pay for business expenses.

Say you have an employee that costs $50,000/year for 3 years with overhead. You're too cheap to spend $3,000 on a laptop, so you save ~2% of the cost. You feel like a genius. However, you then end up with an individual with vastly lower productivity:

1) If there's any problem with the computer, the sys admins don't know what to do because they didn't set it up. Personal computers are on average, more full of viruses and other problems than work computers.
2) Hard drive failures will be more common, most people don't have double-backups on their personal computers.
3) You hired someone of lower quality in the first place, because only someone with limited choices would go to the institution that does not cover business expenses and therefore pays less money.
4) The worker is less productive because he has an inferior computer system. A computation that should take a day takes a week, etc.

In the end you actually losing tons of money. You have less competent workers who are less productive than they otherwise would be. It's a false saving, it's equivalent to the idiocy of the Quebec government saving money by infrastructure by having the worst roads in North America and having bridges crumble on top of people and killing people. In the end it ends up costing money in otherways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Canadian universities receive less funding, charge lower tuition but yet we have two in the top 20 in the world, and 3 in the top 40.
Simply not correct. No ranking seems to support your claim.

I just looked at the 2012-2013 Times Higher Education Supplement.
There are zero canadian universities in the top-20:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u.../world-ranking
Toronto is 21st, UBC is 30th, McGill is 34th.

On the 2012 Shanghai rankings, there are again zero canadian universities in the top-20:
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2012.html
Toronto is 27th, UBC is 39th, and McGill is 63rd

On the 2012 US News & World Report rankings:
http://www.usnews.com/education/worl...s-in-the-world
McGll is 18th, Toronto is 19th, and UBC is 45th.

Meanwhile, the common theme in the top-20 is money, money, money. If you want to be mediocre, which seems to be your preference, that's ok, not everybody has ambition. However, if you want to be excellent, then it's not going to come for free. It's going to take sacrifice.

Excellence always takes sacrifice.

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12-18-2012, 02:11 AM
  #481
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http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...-rankings/2012

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12-18-2012, 02:43 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I'm sure you feel clever, but that's exactly the same ranking as the one I posted third. Check the top-20, same schools, same numbers.

So basically, one ranking out of three supports your argument, and only does so barely, not very good.

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12-18-2012, 11:15 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm sure you feel clever, but that's exactly the same ranking as the one I posted third. Check the top-20, same schools, same numbers.

So basically, one ranking out of three supports your argument, and only does so barely, not very good.
And that was the ranking I was referring to when I made the statement...

And even in the Times one, Canada still has three in the top 40.


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12-18-2012, 06:26 PM
  #484
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I'm not that worried about universities in the ROC. Harper and many of the provincial premiers are supportive of universities, and tuitions in English Canada are rising.

How are those superhospitals going? I think they were originally supposed to be completed by 1990.

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12-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm not that worried about universities in the ROC. Harper and many of the provincial premiers are supportive of universities, and tuitions in English Canada are rising.

How are those superhospitals going? I think they were originally supposed to be completed by 1990.
First of all, Harper has nothing to do with education.

Second of all, I find it kind of cute that you are worried about Montreal universities, considering they have the best university system in the entire country.

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12-19-2012, 01:09 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Second of all, I find it kind of cute that you are worried about Montreal universities, considering they have the best university system in the entire country.
Care to elaborate why, because most people who've experienced both systems would strongly disagree with you.

The only perceived advantage in Qc is the lower tuition fees but to me, this is more of an disadvantage wrapped in an advantage, because the offset of that is lower quality of our universities, lab, teachers, etc...

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12-19-2012, 01:54 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
Care to elaborate why, because most people who've experienced both systems would strongly disagree with you.

The only perceived advantage in Qc is the lower tuition fees but to me, this is more of an disadvantage wrapped in an advantage, because the offset of that is lower quality of our universities, lab, teachers, etc...
I don't see how you can make this dichotomy.

Montreal has four solid schools on the island alone:

UdeM
McGill
UQAM
Concordia

Universite de Montreal has excellent research, some of the best in the country and is ranked well globally as well. Institutes like Ecole Polytechique de Montreal and HEC are the best of their kind in the country. McGill is a solid research university in the world. Concordia is the largest school in the country has one of the best business schools. UQAM is a decent school as well.

I really wonder how you guys keep saying all your standards are so low because of low tuition, yet Montreal has some of the best research institutes in the country, and definitely the highest concentration of them.

I just think you guys are way too critical of Montreal. This is coming from an outsider, you should be proud of what this city has in terms of higher education. It is no surprise that Montreal consistently ranks high on university city rankings globally.

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12-19-2012, 05:28 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I don't see how you can make this dichotomy.

Montreal has four solid schools on the island alone:

UdeM
McGill
UQAM
Concordia

Universite de Montreal has excellent research, some of the best in the country and is ranked well globally as well. Institutes like Ecole Polytechique de Montreal and HEC are the best of their kind in the country. McGill is a solid research university in the world. Concordia is the largest school in the country has one of the best business schools. UQAM is a decent school as well.

I really wonder how you guys keep saying all your standards are so low because of low tuition, yet Montreal has some of the best research institutes in the country, and definitely the highest concentration of them.

I just think you guys are way too critical of Montreal. This is coming from an outsider, you should be proud of what this city has in terms of higher education. It is no surprise that Montreal consistently ranks high on university city rankings globally.
How can you say this when we have rankings in the exact same thread showing Montreal has only school that shows up high in any rankings?

UQAM a decent school? Compared to what?

Montreal the largest concentration of research institutes in the country? Ever heard of Toronto?

I'm not saying the universities in Mtl are total crap, they are actually relatively good. We're just not at a level where we can compare ourselves to the best school in the world or even the best schools in North-America, apart from McGill.

And with low tuition, the discrepancy with the ROC and the US will get worst and worst, it's mathematical really.

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12-19-2012, 05:37 PM
  #489
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McGill is able to compete because what it lacks in tuition, it makes up in donations. I worked for Development and Almuni Relations at McGill...a lot of McGill's money comes from private hands. I agree with DAC..schools are severely underfunded in Quebec.

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12-19-2012, 11:25 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
How can you say this when we have rankings in the exact same thread showing Montreal has only school that shows up high in any rankings?

UQAM a decent school? Compared to what?

I'm not saying the universities in Mtl are total crap, they are actually relatively good. We're just not at a level where we can compare ourselves to the best school in the world or even the best schools in North-America, apart from McGill.

And with low tuition, the discrepancy with the ROC and the US will get worst and worst, it's mathematical really.
Montreal has 4 universities in the top 25 in the country:

http://www.4icu.org/ca/

No other city in Canada has that, the only one with three is Toronto.

It has two ranked Medical schools (no other city has this):

http://www.ivyglobal.ca/mcat/med_schools_canada.asp

UdeM is a research juggernaut in Canada:

Quote:
In Research Infosource's 2011 ranking of Canada's 50 top research universities, the university was ranked third, with a sponsored research income of $524,133 million, the third largest in the country. The university has an average of $278,200 per faculty member, making it the fifth most research-intensive full-service university.[52] In terms of research performance, High Impact Universities 2010 ranked the university 108th out of 500 universities, and sixth in the country.[53] In the field of medicine, dentistry, pharmacology, and health sciences, the 2010 High Impact Universities ranking placed Université de Montréal in 68th in the world, and fifth nationally.[54] In the field of life, agricultural and biological sciences, the 2010 High Impact Universities ranking placed the university 99th in the world, and fourth in Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers..._Montr%C3%A9al

It is also top 100 in the world in many rankings. And HEC is world renowned, while Polytechnique is the best engineering school in the country:

Quote:
The École Polytechnique is known for its dynamic research, which represented over 40% of its budget for the year 2008-2009 (60.5 million CAD research funding). Among the engineering faculties/schools in the U15, Ecole Polytechnique leads the way in many areas of research: number of Canada Research Chairs (No. 1), total NSERC grants (No. 1), number of publications in engineering faculties in Canada (No. 5) and NSERC research grants in partnership with industry (No.1). Forty research units receive more than 20% of the funding and contracts for research in the area of applied science given to Quebec’s universities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89c..._Montr%C3%A9al

I am not sure how you can say 'apart from McGill,' considering if you did that with almost any other city their ranking would drop dramatically. It is like saying New York without Columbia, or San Fran without Berkeley, or Philadelphia without UPenn.

Quote:
Montreal the largest concentration of research institutes in the country? Ever heard of Toronto?
Montreal has a much greater concentration.

Quote:
Montreal, Quebec (Canada) has the highest proportion of post-secondary students of all major cities in North America. This represents roughly 248,000 post-secondary students, one of the largest numbers in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Montreal

Montreal has two universities in the top 5 research universities in the country:

http://www.researchinfosource.com/me...p50Listsup.pdf

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12-20-2012, 06:42 AM
  #491
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That feel when you don't know what you want to do with your life. Does anyone else know that feel? I'm not a dumb guy, I would say I'm well above average in intelligence but I find it really hard to motivate myself. I sometimes skip classes, simply don't listen in class or study enough. It's really hard to find the motivation to strive for excellent grades when you don't really have a precise goal.

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12-20-2012, 05:23 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
That feel when you don't know what you want to do with your life. Does anyone else know that feel? I'm not a dumb guy, I would say I'm well above average in intelligence but I find it really hard to motivate myself. I sometimes skip classes, simply don't listen in class or study enough. It's really hard to find the motivation to strive for excellent grades when you don't really have a precise goal.
Been there, done, that.

Most people find most subjects are boring.

It might be worth it for you to take time off from school and go do something else for a while.

I would say that, contrary to popular perception, grades have very little to do with intelligence. Intelligence matters, somewhat, but not for most classes, and motivation always matters more.

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12-20-2012, 05:25 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
That feel when you don't know what you want to do with your life. Does anyone else know that feel? I'm not a dumb guy, I would say I'm well above average in intelligence but I find it really hard to motivate myself. I sometimes skip classes, simply don't listen in class or study enough. It's really hard to find the motivation to strive for excellent grades when you don't really have a precise goal.
What are you currently doing in school?

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12-20-2012, 10:11 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
On the 2012 US News & World Report rankings:
http://www.usnews.com/education/worl...s-in-the-world
McGll is 18th, Toronto is 19th, and UBC is 45th.
The educational quality between an 18th-overall U and a 84th-overall U (the best two Us in Montreal) is quite small... even an 18th-overall U still has one weakness or two (social work)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Montreal has 4 universities in the top 25 in the country:

http://www.4icu.org/ca/

No other city in Canada has that, the only one with three is Toronto.

It has two ranked Medical schools (no other city has this):

http://www.ivyglobal.ca/mcat/med_schools_canada.asp

It is also top 100 in the world in many rankings. And HEC is world renowned, while Polytechnique is the best engineering school in the country
U Toronto, U Waterloo and UBC aren't any better? Polytechnique certainly is a good engineering school, though.

Quote:
I am not sure how you can say 'apart from McGill,' considering if you did that with almost any other city their ranking would drop dramatically. It is like saying New York without Columbia, or San Fran without Berkeley, or Philadelphia without UPenn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Montreal

Montreal has two universities in the top 5 research universities in the country:

http://www.researchinfosource.com/me...p50Listsup.pdf
NYU isn't of the same standard as Columbia, all right, but is it of a high standard? Easily second-best in New York. But the gap between UPenn and Villanova (the best two Us in Philadelphia) is far greater than between Columbia and NYU, or McGill and U Montreal.

Montreal is in a situation where there are two high-caliber Us, unlike Philadelphia (UPenn) or San Francisco (Berkeley), where the gap between the best and the second-best is pretty large. So the best educational comparables are Los Angeles or New York.

Then again, Montreal is the 10th best student city in the world for a reason.

http://www.topuniversities.com/stude...t-cities/2012/

Quote:
Care to elaborate why, because most people who've experienced both systems would strongly disagree with you.
My number theory prof, who taught at U Alberta and UBC before going to U Montreal, always feel that Quebec universities had it better as far as educational quality is concerned. She says that U Texas-Austin (another research comparable to the aforementionned schools, and this is where she got her PhD from) was horrible at educating undergraduates in mathematics. Yet the main thing that all these rankings suck at is to show how well they teach undergraduates, when undergraduate quality is often what the public wants to know.

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12-20-2012, 10:39 PM
  #495
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NYU isn't of the same standard as Columbia, all right, but is it of a high standard? Easily second-best in New York. But the gap between UPenn and Villanova (the best two Us in Philadelphia) is far greater than between Columbia and NYU, or McGill and U Montreal.
Not a legitimate comparison.

The United States has very many "college towns", that bring in people from all over. A good example is College Station, Pennsylvania, where Penn State is located. It's a good school, and by the way has the second highest ranked astronomy graduate program in the USA, but it doesn't contribute to the ranking of any particular city.

Look at the top-20 in the USA according to US news and world report: Princeton, Yale, Duke, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Notre Dame, are all located outside of major cities. That's a huge fraction of the talent. In the 20-30 range you also find Virginia, Wake Forest, Michigan, and UNC chapel hill. This is why other than Boston, New York and a few others very few American cities have several good colleges. The equivalent for Quebec would be if UQAM were relocated to Val D'or. The gap is worse if you only look at liberal arts colleges, rather than PhD schools.

Canada only has three college towns with high quality universities, Kingston (Queen's), Waterloo (Waterloo) and Kitchene (mcMaster), 100% are in Ontario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Montreal is in a situation where there are two high-caliber Us, unlike Philadelphia (UPenn) or San Francisco (Berkeley), where the gap between the best and the second-best is pretty large. So the best educational comparables are Los Angeles or New York.
Stanford University, not included in my list above, is 30 miles from San Francisco, basically in suburban San Francisco. It is more prestigious than Berkeley imo. You're also not accounting for the greater suburban sprawl in the USA. 30 miles is not a big deal there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio
My number theory prof, who taught at U Alberta and UBC before going to U Montreal, always feel that Quebec universities had it better as far as educational quality is concerned. She says that U Texas-Austin (another research comparable to the aforementionned schools, and this is where she got her PhD from) was horrible at educating undergraduates in mathematics. Yet the main thing that all these rankings suck at is to show how well they teach undergraduates, when undergraduate quality is often what the public wants to know.
The undergraduate education at McGill was quite good.

However, graduate education is simply more important. Undergraduate education doesn't produce the specialized skills needed for the job market in most cases, and never leads to world-class breakthroughs. It is the new high school.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-20-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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12-20-2012, 11:08 PM
  #496
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Fine, San Francisco has two high-level Us rather than one.

Yes, I acknowledge that graduate education is important, and IMO of equal relative importance to undergraduate education in order to rank universities, but if you had an "undergraduate-only" ranking they would vastly differ from the rankings we currently have. Even so, the best undergraduate rankings would most likely be field-specific.

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12-20-2012, 11:10 PM
  #497
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Education is a very thought provoking topic. Not surprisingly this thread often turns into a school system discussion.

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12-21-2012, 02:02 AM
  #498
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Ah...That feel when you get an A in a class you thought you screwed up.

I went to final and the question said to program the solution. So I did...

When I came out of the test I hadn't finished the test and asked everyone else how they did. They all told me they finished an hour in advance and had plenty of time. When I asked how it was because the teacher told them individually during the exam that he didnt care about the programming, he just wanted to know the logic to see if you understand.

I guess because I did approx 50% of exam in hand programming an entire problem he probably readjusted his standards for those questions.

Pretty pumped about that. Kind of feels good to know I didn't get screwed.

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12-23-2012, 01:24 PM
  #499
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Anyone work in the consulting field?

I want to get into it but don't know where to start. Is there any companies that give students a fair chance to work their way up?

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12-23-2012, 01:44 PM
  #500
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Got an A in my first ever masters course. Still waiting for my mark in my other course. Still need to choose a thesis advisor and topic. Ugh.

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