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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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12-16-2012, 10:13 PM
  #26
Kloparren
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Vote closes Thursday. So perhaps Friday?
I'm interested in knowing if any negotiations happen before this date. If not then we're doomed. Afterwards it'll be christmas and you know pretty much nothing is getting done around then.

I'm also curious to ask anyone here who knows the court as to what sanctions a court can place on players in case they do decide to take it to the courts and successfully decertify and later declare the lockout illegal or whatever term you'd use. Can they in theory be prevented from forming a union similar to the one they have as a condition of decertification?

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12-16-2012, 10:17 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners will be here after the players are gone. Why shouldn't the players look out for their own best interest? They have a small window to make a sum of money. The owners should have more long term interest than the players because their window of opportunity is much bigger and more long term. They also don't trash a knee and kiss their career goodbye. I simply don't understand the owner worship these days.
Even if you're an average to below average NHLer... Odds are you're still good enough to be bouncing around between pro leagues for at least 5-10 years. If you're making 60-100k/year playing hockey, it's still better than what most people make per year in annual salary. It's on YOU to manage your finances accordingly, responsibly and try to plan for the future. If a player remains a consistent, average (i.e. bottom level) NHLer for the majority of his career, the reality is he eventually becomes a millionaire in this day and age, which opens many opportunities for himself in terms of careers/business ventures after hockey.

Yes in most cases they put their heart and soul into their work, the game, the training, all of it... just for a chance to play at the highest level if even for a short time but the bottom line is even the "poor" ones are appropriately compensated for all they put in or "sacrifice". Ultimately, they make the choice and they're playing a game. A game, remember.

So yes in many, maybe even most cases the players have a short window to make their money... but they DO, and they are. I hate it how people here make it sound as though things are unfair and they deserve more/are crying poor. They made the choice to chase a dream, to live this life and choose this path. Now suck it up and be happy with your millions, dare I say, hundreds of thousands. End of story.


Last edited by Philly85: 12-16-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old
12-16-2012, 10:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners will be here after the players are gone. Why shouldn't the players look out for their own best interest? They have a small window to make a sum of money. The owners should have more long term interest than the players because their window of opportunity is much bigger and more long term. They also don't trash a knee and kiss their career goodbye. I simply don't understand the owner worship these days.
i agree with smackdaddy. i understand the players need to 'get paid while they can' but where is their interest for the integrity of the league? also, why do all the pictures of fehr include the same highly paid players standing behind him like bodyguards?

why shouldn't the owners look out for their best interest? after all, they are the ones who have something to lose. there are teams that are losing money. no player loses money, no matter how badly they play. this is the biggest difference in this whole thing. there are teams that make money just like players who accepted these ridiculous contracts knowing what the consequences are, but there is no player that loses money because they fail to put something credible on the ice.

if a player gets hurt in the game, that is tragic and i do not wish to see it happen. i just want to make that clear. it just seems to me that the spectrum of money is on such a bigger scale for the owners than the players.

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Old
12-16-2012, 10:59 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners will be here after the players are gone. Why shouldn't the players look out for their own best interest?
I, for one, don't have a problem with the PA looking out for the players' interest.

However, I do feel it should be all the players' interest, not just the small percentage that they seem to be fighting this war for.

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Old
12-16-2012, 11:10 PM
  #30
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I haven't really been following too much over the past month. Can someone give me an objective, dumbed-down description of what exactly is going on and where we stand?

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12-16-2012, 11:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hobgoblin933 View Post
For someone who hasn't been following what's been going on too closely, what does everyone think the odds are that we'll still have a season?
No hockey this year. That's my view.

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12-16-2012, 11:30 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
I haven't really been following too much over the past month. Can someone give me an objective, dumbed-down description of what exactly is going on and where we stand?
The NHLPA is looking to decertify the league has started legal proceedings to limit the affect such an action could have. Basically they're playing a game of chicken now, threatening to go to legal actions which will take a long time to resolve. They're both hoping the other side will cave, which is possible but there is the risk they've each been pushed to far and have hardened their opinions and are willing to take it all the way whatever the consequences.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:03 AM
  #33
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Why does it take four days to get all the PA members to vote?

I mean we have national elections over 24 hours (even less really)...

It seems the PA's ability to stall things has been grossly underestimated!

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12-17-2012, 12:12 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
Even if you're an average to below average NHLer... Odds are you're still good enough to be bouncing around between pro leagues for at least 5-10 years. If you're making 60-100k/year playing hockey, it's still better than what most people make per year in annual salary. It's on YOU to manage your finances accordingly, responsibly and try to plan for the future.
Also most people change careers a half dozen times in their lives. Are we supposed to set up even below average players for life? You can't negotiate CBA's and player salaries on the basis that players won't be responsible with their money.

Let's say a pro career ends at 30 because of mediocre play. Go back to freakin' school. You should be able to pay for it. A lot of people are still in post-secondary education at 30 with nothing but debt to show for it, much less a million in the bank.


Last edited by Turbofan: 12-17-2012 at 12:18 AM.
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12-17-2012, 12:17 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Why does it take four days to get all the PA members to vote?

I mean we have national elections over 24 hours (even less really)...

It seems the PA's ability to stall things has been grossly underestimated!
I think they have to give them time to fly back from their parasailing trip to Aruba.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:34 AM
  #36
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I think they have to give them time to fly back from their parasailing trip to Aruba.
And adding to the mindboggling nature of the 5-day window for voting is it's being done electronically... They don't have to show up anywhere specific!

Why 5 days? has anyone answered that from the PA? Hell, has anyone even asked?


I'll just assume it's a pre-tech stipulation of the PA's internal policies and procedures that has failed to be updated since it's inception in 1967... back when players would of had to travel to place a vote... That's the only logical conclusion right? Right?

Or the more dramatic theory - just a little additional simmering time for the process to squeeze the calender just a little more, or buy them some time to see if they can get a read on what way the courts may be leaning in case there's a court statement or an assignment of a judge...

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:48 AM
  #37
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My apologies if this has already been asked, but if the union actually decertified/disclaimed, does that mean any 18 year old juniors player could sue to play immediately in the NHL? And have an antitrust case if not allowed? Assuming there's an NHL season actually going forward, obviously.

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Old
12-17-2012, 01:04 AM
  #38
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I hope this thing doesn't last 3 years being judged in courts. I do hope they can reach an agreement and we get our HNIC back!


Last edited by Killion: 12-17-2012 at 01:28 AM. Reason: your right, we dont go there with that stuff here on the BOH quoted or not.
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Old
12-17-2012, 07:27 AM
  #39
ottawah
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Originally Posted by MVP of West Hollywd View Post
Interesting move by Fehr. Basically roll out this 5 day vote thing and hope that the owners see that it = death of first 2 weeks of January, thus causing them to fold on the contract issue
If the tweet from Dreger is correct, then it is far more than contracting issues. The players apparently are asking for a salary cap that would be well above 50%, probably 60% minimum and asking for escrow limits.

I've got no reason to doubt Dreger, and if that is correct then depending upon the escrow limits, its possible the players could easily be paid 60% of revenue. No guarantees.

Quite simply, it may be FAR more than contracting issues at this point.

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12-17-2012, 07:34 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
My apologies if this has already been asked, but if the union actually decertified/disclaimed, does that mean any 18 year old juniors player could sue to play immediately in the NHL? And have an antitrust case if not allowed? Assuming there's an NHL season actually going forward, obviously.
Not necessarily.

First off, he would likely have to sue teams, not the NHL. Secondly, there is strong precedence already set for employees having to have minimum standards for employment, much as a degree, age, etc. Thirdly, as it is skill based he would have to prove he's capable, and with so few 18 yr olds making the NHL, its a hard sell.

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Old
12-17-2012, 07:51 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Why does it take four days to get all the PA members to vote?

I mean we have national elections over 24 hours (even less really)...

It seems the PA's ability to stall things has been grossly underestimated!
I tend to agree here. This is all about getting the other side to bend a bit further as we approach the drop dead date (first week in January).

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Old
12-17-2012, 07:55 AM
  #42
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January 2nd was it? At least we know when they need to get there by, except there's probably another way to delay things again. Fehr is quite good at that feat.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:21 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
January 2nd was it? At least we know when they need to get there by, except there's probably another way to delay things again. Fehr is quite good at that feat.
Well he needs to be good at something.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:30 AM
  #44
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My guess

My guess is things are stalled until the NHL get's a ruling or at least an indication of a ruling on it's recent court and NLRB findings.

This is important in lieu of McNeil. IF the NHL doesn't get at least the possibility of the anti trust protection it's asked for, and that's a big enough IF on it's own, then you will see a deal done in short order.

So if I'm right, (and lord knows i've been wrong before LOL) for those of you who want this thing settled and play to resume, hope, pray or file an AMICUS brief with the 2nd District Court, that the court allows anti trust suits (ala McNeil) to be filed.

That's the fastest way to a solution.


Last edited by Falconone: 12-17-2012 at 08:32 AM. Reason: SpElin + pUnCtuasun LOL
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Old
12-17-2012, 08:32 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
If the tweet from Dreger is correct, then it is far more than contracting issues. The players apparently are asking for a salary cap that would be well above 50%, probably 60% minimum and asking for escrow limits.

I've got no reason to doubt Dreger, and if that is correct then depending upon the escrow limits, its possible the players could easily be paid 60% of revenue. No guarantees.

Quite simply, it may be FAR more than contracting issues at this point.
Pretty much. The league is saying "you will get 50% of HRR" the PA is STILL saying "we'll use that 50% of HRR as a starting point and ask for all these other things that forces money outside the system into our pockets".

I also have no doubt in my mind that the PA rank and file has no idea that the two viewpoints are basically diametrically opposite. Heck a few days ago there were still players confused over the concept of revenues, expenses and profits.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:55 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
My apologies if this has already been asked, but if the union actually decertified/disclaimed, does that mean any 18 year old juniors player could sue to play immediately in the NHL? And have an antitrust case if not allowed? Assuming there's an NHL season actually going forward, obviously.
The currently signed players have a case. Unsigned players do not. Can you sue a company for not hiring you? Again, the players arent thinking all of these issues through carefully. Thinking about the future players? I think not.

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Old
12-17-2012, 09:13 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners will be here after the players are gone. Why shouldn't the players look out for their own best interest? They have a small window to make a sum of money. The owners should have more long term interest than the players because their window of opportunity is much bigger and more long term. They also don't trash a knee and kiss their career goodbye. I simply don't understand the owner worship these days.
Yeah, the players have a small window, so why do they seem to be willing to throw away a full season? A season where the average salary will be $2.3m?

An NHL career is around 5 years - the players are willing to lose 20% of their career earning potential?

For very minimal give-back to the owners. The vast majority of NHLPA members will see no change to their everyday hockey life and earning big checks.

owner worship?? Not quite, no one is worshipping the owners. But the owners do make it possible for there to even be an NHL. And they treat their employees quite well - they even have the nerve to pay them the draconian amount of 2.3m. b*******!


Last edited by Butch 19: 12-17-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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Old
12-17-2012, 09:15 AM
  #48
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Do the players truly feel screwed over by the League, or are they just greedy, or are they just fighting in principle? Even if it's the latter, don't they (and the owners) have any sense of commitment to the League and especially to its fans?

Since no one has posted anything since what I posted above, I'll just add this question here:

Does all this mean that both sides have now given up totally on this Season; or is what's happening now the last desperate attempt for one side or the other to get its way, and then in the last second... OK, uncle, let's play hockey with what's left of the Season?
It is obvious that the players at the top of the salary scheme are greedy. why do the european players come to this country to play hockey when their are leagues in their own countries? Because they get paid a lot more money here. They would get paid enough in their own countries to have a decent life. It is pure greed that they come here.

perhaps if the owners introduced something into bargaining limiting each team to 1 foreign player the greedy foreign players would want to settle.

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12-17-2012, 09:19 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Yeah, the players have a small window, so why do they seem to be willing to throw away a full season? A season where the average salary will be $2.3m?

An NHL career is around 5 years - the players are willing to lose 20% of their career earning potential?

For very minimal give-back to the owners. The vast majority of NHLPA members will see no change to their everyday hockey life and earning big checks.

owner worship?? Not quite, no one is worshipping the owners. But the owners do make it possible for there to even be an NHL. And they treat their employees quite well - they even having the nerve to pay them the draconian amount of 2.3m. b*******!
Most players are not very bright. How many have been to college? How many even graduated from high school. The players not making much money are listening to their agents and union leadership. Both their advisers are concerned about making as much money as possible. And they do this by increasing the total salaries. They don't care about individual players. And certainly not the guy making the league minimum.

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12-17-2012, 09:22 AM
  #50
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While I'm supporting the owners side mostly in this situation, I wouldn't call myself pro-owner. I'm pro-healthy league. Living in Toronto, this cap system doesnt benefit our team, quite the opposite.

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