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Dustin Byfuglien

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:39 PM
  #51
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Goddammit. It seems that every proposal with Vancouver has Ballard in it. No one wants Ballard and his inflated contract. He would be a serviceable bottom pairing D-man if he was cheap, but his current contract makes him have 0 value. Sorry for the rant, but it's true...

Anyways, seeing as Vancouver would need to make cap space, we can't take your prospects and would require a solid roster player such as Kesler or Hamhuis +. A steep price, I know, but it's the only way our two teams can make a deal in a cap space world.
Ballard was mainly included as a cap dump, although he does have some value. I'm sure you could include a 3rd team like NYI and grab a 3rd and 4th round pick for him.

Anyways, are you actually insinuating that Byfuglien has more value than Kesler or Hamhuis? Kesler had a bad season, his worst to date, but I don't see him as on the down swing at 28 years old. He'll certainly rebound with a healthy start to the season. And Hamhuis is a rock, there isnt a team in the league that would take Byfuglien over Hamhuis. Hamhuis just put up close to 40 PTs while being a top 10 Norris candidate, you're under rating him.

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12-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Ballard was mainly included as a cap dump, although he does have some value. I'm sure you could include a 3rd team like NYI and grab a 3rd and 4th round pick for him.

Anyways, are you actually insinuating that Byfuglien has more value than Kesler or Hamhuis? Kesler had a bad season, his worst to date, but I don't see him as on the down swing at 28 years old. He'll certainly rebound with a healthy start to the season. And Hamhuis is a rock, there isnt a team in the league that would take Byfuglien over Hamhuis. Hamhuis just put up close to 40 PTs while being a top 10 Norris candidate, you're under rating him.
I really have to agree with you on that. As much as I like the scoring Byfuglien provides I'd easily trade him for Hamhuis.

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12-16-2012, 07:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Ballard was mainly included as a cap dump, although he does have some value. I'm sure you could include a 3rd team like NYI and grab a 3rd and 4th round pick for him.

Anyways, are you actually insinuating that Byfuglien has more value than Kesler or Hamhuis? Kesler had a bad season, his worst to date, but I don't see him as on the down swing at 28 years old. He'll certainly rebound with a healthy start to the season. And Hamhuis is a rock, there isnt a team in the league that would take Byfuglien over Hamhuis. Hamhuis just put up close to 40 PTs while being a top 10 Norris candidate, you're under rating him.
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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
I really have to agree with you on that. As much as I like the scoring Byfuglien provides I'd easily trade him for Hamhuis.
I ever so slightly disagree.

Kesler:
Most likely he will bounce back, relative to last year. But if I was a gambling man I would put money on that Kesler never repeats 2010-2011. Combine highest career sh%, highest career SOG/GP, huge 30pt PP boost, playing full 82 game schedule, and that most all players peek between 23-26 for pts/gp... it looks like the odds are strongly stacked against him repeating that. Yearly 20-25G 40-50A against tough minutes is nothing to scoff at though. Those factors don't change value though.
Having a bad injury last season and low box score stats does though. But, since he most likely will bounce back a bit, he holds more value being kept than traded.

Hamhuis:
It's just offence vs defence. Hamhuis is no stick in the mud when it comes to offence, and Byfuglien's defensive abilities is highly underated (not saying they are anywhere close to exceptional). But, to think that no team would value Byfuglien over Hamhuis is a little brash. They are both supreme top pairing defensemen so the difference in value is created by needs. Personally, I'd take Hamhuis over Byfuglien though... but saying no one would is brash.

Byfuglien:
To say Byfuglien wouldn't of been in the picture for Noris if he didn't lose so many games (and played so many games with a bruised bone injury) is foolish... playing half of his season (~25 games of 66) away from Enstrom (and during that bit usually with a plug named Stuart who probably wouldn't of made Vancouver's roster) Byfuglien had the second highest points for D in only 66 games.
He is among a very few who against tough competition scored +1.00 p/60 and had a RelCorsi +5.0 (Bieksa is also in that 7 player list).


I would loooove all of these players on my team for free though so feel free to toss them our way; you can throw in Tanev too jk

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12-16-2012, 07:36 PM
  #54
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I ever so slightly disagree.

Kesler:
Most likely he will bounce back, relative to last year. But if I was a gambling man I would put money on that Kesler never repeats 2010-2011. Combine highest career sh%, highest career SOG/GP, huge 30pt PP boost, playing full 82 game schedule, and that most all players peek between 23-26 for pts/gp... it looks like the odds are strongly stacked against him repeating that. Yearly 20-25G 40-50A against tough minutes is nothing to scoff at though. Those factors don't change value though.
Having a bad injury last season and low box score stats does though. But, since he most likely will bounce back a bit, he holds more value being kept than traded.

Hamhuis:
It's just offence vs defence. Hamhuis is no stick in the mud when it comes to offence, and Byfuglien's defensive abilities is highly underated (not saying they are anywhere close to exceptional). But, to think that no team would value Byfuglien over Hamhuis is a little brash. They are both supreme top pairing defensemen so the difference in value is created by needs. Personally, I'd take Hamhuis over Byfuglien though... but saying no one would is brash.

Byfuglien:
To say Byfuglien wouldn't of been in the picture for Noris if he didn't lose so many games (and played so many games with a bruised bone injury) is foolish... playing half of his season (~25 games of 66) away from Enstrom (and during that bit usually with a plug named Stuart who probably wouldn't of made Vancouver's roster) Byfuglien had the second highest points for D in only 66 games.
He is among a very few who against tough competition scored +1.00 p/60 and had a RelCorsi +5.0 (Bieksa is also in that 7 player list).


I would loooove all of these players on my team for free though so feel free to toss them our way; you can throw in Tanev too jk
Fair analogy. Even still, I think the gap between Hamhuis and Byfuglien is bigger than you suggest. If you take contracts into account, 4.6mil long term for Hamhuis is a steal.

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12-16-2012, 08:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Fair analogy. Even still, I think the gap between Hamhuis and Byfuglien is bigger than you suggest. If you take contracts into account, 4.6mil long term for Hamhuis is a steal.
So is Buff's. not sure where your going with that.

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12-17-2012, 12:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Anyways, are you actually insinuating that Byfuglien has more value than Kesler or Hamhuis? Kesler had a bad season, his worst to date, but I don't see him as on the down swing at 28 years old. He'll certainly rebound with a healthy start to the season. And Hamhuis is a rock, there isnt a team in the league that would take Byfuglien over Hamhuis. Hamhuis just put up close to 40 PTs while being a top 10 Norris candidate, you're under rating him.
Yes, I believe Buff does have more value than both of them seperately. Not by much mind you.

Buff has put up numbers that have landed him in the top 5 scoring race for defencemen two years in a row. He was 2nd overall this year with only 66 games played too. Did I mention that he accomplish this by playing on a significantly worse team? And if you want to talk about accolades, Buff has a Stanley cup ring which is something both Kesler and Hamhuis lack.

Value wise, Kesler is closer than Hamuis. The gap with Kesler is negligible, so I wouldn't be disappointed with a straight Kesler/Buff trade. With Hamhuis, I have several other D-men that I would value above him, Byfuglien included, but that is not to say he is a slouch. I would definitely want him on our team, but the gap is a pick/prospect if you were to include Byfuglien in my opinion.


Last edited by Inflict: 12-17-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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Old
12-17-2012, 09:20 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Fair analogy. Even still, I think the gap between Hamhuis and Byfuglien is bigger than you suggest. If you take contracts into account, 4.6mil long term for Hamhuis is a steal.
The gap defensively is huge, in favour of Hamhuis.
The gap offensively is huge, in favour of Buff.

IMO anyway.

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12-17-2012, 09:34 AM
  #58
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I would trade a lot to get Byfuglien to play forward for Caps.

I also would prefer that we played agaisnt him than with him if he is a defenceman.

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12-17-2012, 10:28 AM
  #59
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I still don't get the forward thing. Hell, even a preliminary look at the stats on nhl.com would say that's a bad idea.

he had 31 points and was a plus 7 in his best year as a forward...that doesn't sound very elite to me.

Even in his epic Stanley cup run he was a -4...


he's had 2 50+ pt seasons, at -2 and -7 on defense.

whats worth more, a 30 pt (at best) plus forward, on a good team, who hates his job(buff has stated he doesn't want to play forward)

or a 50 + pt defensemen who was a minus on a minus team?

...I know which one I pick every time...and it's not the forward.

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12-17-2012, 10:49 AM
  #60
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I still don't get the forward thing. Hell, even a preliminary look at the stats on nhl.com would say that's a bad idea.

he had 31 points and was a plus 7 in his best year as a forward...that doesn't sound very elite to me.

Even in his epic Stanley cup run he was a -4...
So what, he had 5 power play goals. At the very least, he should be a PP1 forward all year and the playoffs. I'd have him at forward permanently though, not at all impressed with him as a D-man. Enstrom carries his ass.

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12-17-2012, 10:56 AM
  #61
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So what, he had 5 power play goals. At the very least, he should be a PP1 forward all year and the playoffs. I'd have him at forward permanently though, not at all impressed him as a D-man. Enstrom carries his ass.
you pay 4.5+ for 30 pts?

lets look at this, just real quick...

as forward buff is....

101 pts, 226 games, .45 pts/g and combined -15 on a stanley cup winning team.

as dman he is...

106 pts, 147 games, .72pts/g and a combined -10 on a team that hasn't gotten out of the bottom 10.

So why on earth would you....

forget it this is pointless... see what you want to see...

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12-17-2012, 10:58 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
So what, he had 5 power play goals. At the very least, he should be a PP1 forward all year and the playoffs. I'd have him at forward permanently though, not at all impressed with him as a D-man. Enstrom carries his ass.
he played almost half his games away from Toby...

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12-17-2012, 11:40 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
you pay 4.5+ for 30 pts?

lets look at this, just real quick...

as forward buff is....

101 pts, 226 games, .45 pts/g and combined -15 on a stanley cup winning team.

as dman he is...

106 pts, 147 games, .72pts/g and a combined -10 on a team that hasn't gotten out of the bottom 10.

So why on earth would you....

forget it this is pointless... see what you want to see...
He was a lazy player in the regular season and a liability often times. However, if he could play the way he did in the playoffs over an entire season, he'd have 30-35 goals.

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12-17-2012, 12:05 PM
  #64
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He was a lazy player in the regular season and a liability often times. However, if he could play the way he did in the playoffs over an entire season, he'd have 30-35 goals.
thats a pretty big if...

so in your mind, you would rather take the chance, on a big IF of having him at forward, where he MIGHT perform much better IF he does something you don't think he's done before....

or you could take him on D where the outside chance is he's worse then he was previously, not better?

don't go to vegas...

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12-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
you pay 4.5+ for 30 pts?

lets look at this, just real quick...

as forward buff is....

101 pts, 226 games, .45 pts/g and combined -15 on a stanley cup winning team.

as dman he is...

106 pts, 147 games, .72pts/g and a combined -10 on a team that hasn't gotten out of the bottom 10.

So why on earth would you....

forget it this is pointless... see what you want to see...
To be fair, he was stuck behind Sharp, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Bolland, Versteeg, Ladd, Havlat, etc in all those years he played forward. When he played defense in Chicago he was terrible offensively too, because he was stuck behind Campbell, Keith, and Seabrook.

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12-17-2012, 12:45 PM
  #66
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thats a pretty big if...

so in your mind, you would rather take the chance, on a big IF of having him at forward, where he MIGHT perform much better IF he does something you don't think he's done before....

or you could take him on D where the outside chance is he's worse then he was previously, not better?

don't go to vegas...
Motivation has always been an issue with him and the fat contract he got doesn't help. He's been better in the regular season as a D-man vs. forward but the only time I ever felt he was a premier player was as a power forward in those playoffs.

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12-17-2012, 12:59 PM
  #67
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If I'm the Rangers, I start with Gaborik. Both teams can use smaller pieces to balance it out as needed.

Immediate cap relief of $2 million, which takes up the bulk of MDZ's impending contract. Our whole damn team is UFA in two years, and Gaborik is unlikely to survive that shakeup.

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12-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #68
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Motivation has always been an issue with him and the fat contract he got doesn't help. He's been better in the regular season as a D-man vs. forward but the only time I ever felt he was a premier player was as a power forward in those playoffs.
well watching him fo rmost of the last two seasons has me having a pretty different opinion.

He definitely played great as powerforward in the hawks cup run, but he drove the Bus for winnipeg last year as far the offense was concerned and his in zone d was not bad (transition was horrid).

there's alot more evidence to him being a great d man then a great forward, which is in line with my "eye test" so to speak, so I personally do not get the fascination of having him as a forward (he MAY be a great forward, he IS a great d man). Maybe you don't see a premier d-man, but i'd argue your standards are either a) unrealistic, or b) discrediting how much offense from the backend is worth.

2nd in points, with 66 games played, 25 of which with a 3rd pairing/fringe d man partner. That sounds pretty damn close to premier in my books...

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12-17-2012, 05:44 PM
  #69
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Motivation has always been an issue with him and the fat contract he got doesn't help. He's been better in the regular season as a D-man vs. forward but the only time I ever felt he was a premier player was as a power forward in those playoffs.
Tell me how making -> this list <- isn't premier... doesn't look like too many made it and doesn't look like the company are weaklings

In case you're lazy to look it's top performers of guys who were not sheltered.
Byfuglien, Chara, Karlsson, Timonen, Bieksa and Letang.

No where would I consider Byfuglien in a list of that calibre as a forward.

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12-17-2012, 06:38 PM
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If I'm the Rangers, I start with Gaborik. Both teams can use smaller pieces to balance it out as needed.

Immediate cap relief of $2 million, which takes up the bulk of MDZ's impending contract. Our whole damn team is UFA in two years, and Gaborik is unlikely to survive that shakeup.
I see what your saying, and I do like Gabby as a player for sure. I'm not sure how well he fits into the Jets vision though. Great speed, but he does get injured quite often and I'm not really sure how physical he is. We want more of a crash and bang guy.

I'd trade him for Bobby Ryan+

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12-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #71
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Tell me how making -> this list <- isn't premier... doesn't look like too many made it and doesn't look like the company are weaklings

In case you're lazy to look it's top performers of guys who were not sheltered.
Byfuglien, Chara, Karlsson, Timonen, Bieksa and Letang.

No where would I consider Byfuglien in a list of that calibre as a forward.

EDIT:
Too lazy to look for it but their's a sweet quote from Tippet about how offensive defensemen tend to create a stronger defensive effect than defensive defensemen because they push the play out of their zone and keep it in the opponents.

Eff... that was supposed to be an edit... not a reply... and the wrong thread... fml

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12-17-2012, 08:24 PM
  #72
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EDIT:
Too lazy to look for it but their's a sweet quote from Tippet about how offensive defensemen tend to create a stronger defensive effect than defensive defensemen because they push the play out of their zone and keep it in the opponents.

Eff... that was supposed to be an edit... not a reply... and the wrong thread... fml
This quote?

Quote:
"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he canít move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldnít defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because heís making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but heís only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."
From: http://www.defendingbigd.com/2012/4/...-matt-niskanen

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12-17-2012, 09:20 PM
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Danke!

Course this quote doesn't apply to this convo because Hamhuis is proven effective.
This quote was suppose to be for the UFA/Trade Thread on the Jets' board.
I suck.

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12-18-2012, 08:26 AM
  #74
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I see what your saying, and I do like Gabby as a player for sure. I'm not sure how well he fits into the Jets vision though. Great speed, but he does get injured quite often and I'm not really sure how physical he is. We want more of a crash and bang guy.

I'd trade him for Bobby Ryan+
I was just referring to the earlier Rangers offer posted. I realize Gaborik may not fit the Jets needs. But I think value-wise, that's the kind of trade it would end up looking like. Buff's long term health may be a risk but he would easily return a top-tier player.

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12-18-2012, 08:48 AM
  #75
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Yes, I believe Buff does have more value than both of them seperately. Not by much mind you.

Buff has put up numbers that have landed him in the top 5 scoring race for defencemen two years in a row. He was 2nd overall this year with only 66 games played too. Did I mention that he accomplish this by playing on a significantly worse team? And if you want to talk about accolades, Buff has a Stanley cup ring which is something both Kesler and Hamhuis lack.

Value wise, Kesler is closer than Hamuis. The gap with Kesler is negligible, so I wouldn't be disappointed with a straight Kesler/Buff trade. With Hamhuis, I have several other D-men that I would value above him, Byfuglien included, but that is not to say he is a slouch. I would definitely want him on our team, but the gap is a pick/prospect if you were to include Byfuglien in my opinion.
I guess their value is pretty close. Hamhuis is coming off of a season where he was top 10 in Norris voting and has a cheaper contract. For me, I'd prefer a rock defensively that is still good for 30-40pts over a guy who is questionable defensively but good for an extra 25 pts or so. But that's me, that's my opinion. I do feel as if my opinion is likely the majority, but where there is a majority there is often still a minority.

With Kesler it's too hard to compare. He's coming off of an awful season, I hate discussing the value of players on HF when they're coming off of poor seasons that they're likely to rebound from.

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