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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-17-2012, 10:58 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Teams can't just move. they have leases. You can't just contract teams. People paid for the teams. I just don't get how all these canadian people on this forum think the answer is moving teams. I am sure same canadian fans didn't like it when teams in winnipeg and quebec city moved out and there was talk of moving edmonton or calgary. No one here in the US was saying get rid of the canadian teams last lock out...
Hey, your preaching to the choir. Relocation is a nightmare (Leases' amongst other issues); Bankruptcy is beyond messy (see Phoenix); Contraction beyond impracticable.... then you have the massive costs & expenditures made over the past 10, 20 or 30yrs. A market cultivated but bearing little yield for reasons unique to their individual locations yet unanimous in their support of a lowering of the players take in a desperate attempt to lower costs, the league itself seemingly unwilling to address the issue of dramatically increasing RS. The moneys simply not available, and good luck trying to squeeze it out of the Toronto's, New York's & Philadelphia's of the world. Not happening.

I cant speak for all Canadians, dont pretend to, and probably more than 60% of them here disagree with me anyway when it comes to Relo's, however, they have a better than strong argument. And that is that if after a decade or more Team X,Y or Z still cant pull their own wagons, then they should be moved to markets where that wont be a concern, markets hungry for the NHL brand, underserved. Practically speaking, legally, a total nightmare to contemplate as per Leases etc in moving teams, the loss of faith, face & integrity doing so ultimately engenders, the open admission really that the NHL doesnt really know whats it doing & failed & so on & so forth.... and I dont even want to get into the fictions about how the NHL has somehow been operating under the premises of benevolence & munificence, "growing the game". Utter nonsense. If they were, they'd have actually done something about that instead of simply cashing the Expansion Fee Checks.

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12-17-2012, 11:05 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by dronald View Post
It also doesn't help that no one gives a damn about Hockey in some of the cities that teams reside.
But the players like it there. So do the owners. And that's all that matters.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:22 AM
  #78
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atomic is partially right about players not exactly jumping to play in Canada. Basically the only Canadian teams that gets FA's is Toronto. The Edmonton crap with Pronger last until 2010 and that was the cap era. People, especially the younger guys are not jumping up to play in Edmonton. These guys grow up and they want to live in warmer climates. Look at the stink the yotes made two years ago about moving to Winnipeg. It was unnecessary but we got to see what the average Canadian think once they get a taste of the constant sunshine and low taxes. Canadians need to be serious and realize all that stuff that's said is probably true. It was telling that players thought there should be a second Toronto team.
which big FA's have gone to Toronto?

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12-17-2012, 11:24 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
There is nothing sustainable about the owners' offer.

That's the biggest lie being told in this entire lockout.
You can bet after all is said and done Bettman will appear on every broadcast telling us how much of a gift the lockout was to the fans all the while the owners are already planning the next lockout.

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12-17-2012, 11:30 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CitizenSnips View Post
i agree with smackdaddy. i understand the players need to 'get paid while they can' but where is their interest for the integrity of the league? also, why do all the pictures of fehr include the same highly paid players standing behind him like bodyguards?

why shouldn't the owners look out for their best interest? after all, they are the ones who have something to lose. there are teams that are losing money. no player loses money, no matter how badly they play. this is the biggest difference in this whole thing. there are teams that make money just like players who accepted these ridiculous contracts knowing what the consequences are, but there is no player that loses money because they fail to put something credible on the ice.

if a player gets hurt in the game, that is tragic and i do not wish to see it happen. i just want to make that clear. it just seems to me that the spectrum of money is on such a bigger scale for the owners than the players.
Your right, those poor little billionaires. How will they ever make it if they aren't guaranteed cost certainty, profit, and parity.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:33 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
Even if you're an average to below average NHLer... Odds are you're still good enough to be bouncing around between pro leagues for at least 5-10 years. If you're making 60-100k/year playing hockey, it's still better than what most people make per year in annual salary. It's on YOU to manage your finances accordingly, responsibly and try to plan for the future. If a player remains a consistent, average (i.e. bottom level) NHLer for the majority of his career, the reality is he eventually becomes a millionaire in this day and age, which opens many opportunities for himself in terms of careers/business ventures after hockey.

Yes in most cases they put their heart and soul into their work, the game, the training, all of it... just for a chance to play at the highest level if even for a short time but the bottom line is even the "poor" ones are appropriately compensated for all they put in or "sacrifice". Ultimately, they make the choice and they're playing a game. A game, remember.

So yes in many, maybe even most cases the players have a short window to make their money... but they DO, and they are. I hate it how people here make it sound as though things are unfair and they deserve more/are crying poor. They made the choice to chase a dream, to live this life and choose this path. Now suck it up and be happy with your millions, dare I say, hundreds of thousands. End of story.
And even if your the poorest owner you can bleed millions annually playing with your toy franchise and never see any lifestyle change. Boo hoo, I am shedding a tear for them right now

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:36 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I want this lockout to end and to see some hockey this year but not if the owners accept an agreement that does not close the loopholes that permit cap circumvention. If they do that then that will ensure that
there will be another lockout when the next CBA elapses.

The correction of these loopholes along with bringing down the revenue split was the reason for this lockout and it is something that needs to be done for the good of the league.
There will be another lockout. Period. The owners have already gotten concessions with their go to negotiation method. They are already marking the next lockout on their calendars.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:36 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
which big FA's have gone to Toronto?
You mean other then Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour, Mogilny, Roberts, Owen Nolan? Or are you just trying to make a point.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:37 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Your right, those poor little billionaires. How will they ever make it if they aren't guaranteed cost certainty, profit, and parity.
Tell me about. Making money is not a right.

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12-17-2012, 11:39 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Your right, those poor little billionaires. How will they ever make it if they aren't guaranteed cost certainty, profit, and parity.
You ask how. I would ask why.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:42 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
You mean other then Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour, Mogilny, Roberts, Owen Nolan? Or are you just trying to make a point.
other than maybe Joseph, those are big name FA's? I mean FA's that weren't past their prime when the Leafs acquired them
(Leafs traded for Nolan btw...)


I'm talking about the Brad Richards, the Scott Neidermayers of the NHL

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12-17-2012, 11:43 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
other than maybe Joseph, those are big name FA's? I mean FA's that weren't past their prime when the Leafs acquired them
(Leafs traded for Nolan btw...)


I'm talking about the Brad Richards, the Scott Neidermayers of the NHL
Mogilny's not a big name to you?

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12-17-2012, 11:54 AM
  #88
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From: @CraigCustance
Sent: Dec 17, 2012 12:37p

Horcoff also expects vote to pass: "We just feel at this point the union has done everything they can for us & we're not getting anywhere."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/CraigCustance/sta...28332084060162

IF decertification goes through it will be an interesting league for 12 months.

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Old
12-17-2012, 11:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Mogilny's not a big name to you?
alright, perhaps Mogilny as well but those signings were over 10 years ago...who have they signed since the cap?

The Oilers have signed once of the sought after FA's just this past summer (Schultz)

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12-17-2012, 12:00 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Teams can't just move. they have leases. You can't just contract teams. People paid for the teams. I just don't get how all these canadian people on this forum think the answer is moving teams. I am sure same canadian fans didn't like it when teams in winnipeg and quebec city moved out and there was talk of moving edmonton or calgary. No one here in the US was saying get rid of the canadian teams last lock out.

Why do you guys over value your markets so much? Don't you realize the only reason you guys are supporting your teams now is becuase GW and Obama have devalued the US dollar so much by borrowing money and cutting taxes? It doesn't have anything to do with more loyal fans. If the US government fixes things by raising taxes and cutting expenditures in a few weeks you will be right back to where you were a few years ago.

Failing franchised, contraction, and moving franchises around isn't good for the league. The teams are not competing each other. They are competing against other sports leagues and other entertainment sources. The Capitals sell out every game at exorbitant prices and own their building and evidently they are still losing money.
Relocation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Look at the NFL: They've had a track record for relocating franchises (and for far more frivolous reasons than the NHL would relocate over). Carpetbagging franchises isn't a good thing, but that's not what's being discussed here. Bottom-line, it's better to relocate a franchise than contract it: Contraction destroys the credibility of a sports league, while relocating to a better market enhances the credibility.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:06 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
From: @CraigCustance
Sent: Dec 17, 2012 12:37p

Horcoff also expects vote to pass: "We just feel at this point the union has done everything they can for us & we're not getting anywhere."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/CraigCustance/sta...28332084060162

IF decertification goes through it will be an interesting league for 12 months.
Finally the orders to pretend the players don't need a union has reached the players. Will be very entertaining to read player tweets this week.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:13 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
But the players like it there. So do the owners. And that's all that matters.
It takes much more than that to make a team viable. Few fans = next to no viability.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:30 PM
  #93
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Finally the orders to pretend the players don't need a union has reached the players. Will be very entertaining to read player tweets this week.
I think the timing of these tweets just lends more credence to the NHL's argument.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
From: @CraigCustance
Sent: Dec 17, 2012 12:37p

Horcoff also expects vote to pass: "We just feel at this point the union has done everything they can for us & we're not getting anywhere."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/CraigCustance/sta...28332084060162

IF decertification goes through it will be an interesting league for 12 months.
My my my how the story has changed after having guys named in a lawsuit. Now it's the union can't do anything more for us instead of what of course this is all about...trying to gain some sort of leverage FOR the union.

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12-17-2012, 12:55 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
alright, perhaps Mogilny as well but those signings were over 10 years ago...who have they signed since the cap?

The Oilers have signed once of the sought after FA's just this past summer (Schultz)
Who's unproven in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Relocation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Look at the NFL: They've had a track record for relocating franchises (and for far more frivolous reasons than the NHL would relocate over). Carpetbagging franchises isn't a good thing, but that's not what's being discussed here. Bottom-line, it's better to relocate a franchise than contract it: Contraction destroys the credibility of a sports league, while relocating to a better market enhances the credibility.
Cleveland to Baltimore was a black eye on pro sports. Jacksonville is and was a failure as well. St Louis getting a teams hasn't been all that either.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:55 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
It takes much more than that to make a team viable. Few fans = next to no viability.
Sir, this is the NHL. Smart decisions are non existent.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:58 PM
  #97
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https://twitter.com/cotsonika

Just listened to recording of Bill Daly on Sirius/XM NHL Radio this morning. Some interesting nuggets:

Daly points out in conf. call Friday PA still asking for $67.25M cap that never goes down, plus compliance buyouts/escrow caps.

Daly called those "very significant dollar issues."

Daly called Dec. 31 games "extremely unlikely." Seems obvious, but he's on the record saying that now.

Daly reiterated disclaimer danger, said in his view it would "clearly put the season in jeopardy."

Daly gave context to "hill" comment. Said it happens to be quote from someone inside ownership room, owners felt bought that item in talks.

Daly: "We believe we've made a lot of significant moves in the players' direction almost on a repeated basis from really the start of the lockout to this point. And at some point, you get to the stage where you've basically you've put your best offer on the table and you hope it gains some traction, and I think it's safe to say that's the feeling at this point."

Daly also described legal action Friday as "defensive" in anticipation of disclaimer and PA legal action.

It's the cap number and limited escrow that is clearly a concern...after all this time the PA is still running away from taking a firm share of HRR. They are trying to use the 50% as a "starting point" and put in an inflated cap and escrow limiters that would allow more than that 50% to flow to the players. Add into that the entire make whole and cap compliance buyouts and you have a PA that has spent the entire time trying to get money to go to the players that isn't inside or the intent of the system. Now that is fine if that is what they've decided to try to do, but I'm not sure how many people realize what the PA has actually proposed has very little to do with 50% of HRR.

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Old
12-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Who's unproven in the NHL.


Cleveland to Baltimore was a black eye on pro sports. Jacksonville is and was a failure as well. St Louis getting a teams hasn't been all that either.
Baltimore getting a team was good for the nfl. And Jacksonville wasn't a relocation it was an expansion team. Problem was caused by NFL awarding Jacksonville and Charlotte teams while skipping St. Louis and Baltimore. Baltimore was not awarded expansion team because Redskins were fighting against them getting a team. So only way to get team was to get someone to move. Baltimore sells-out every game years in advance and Jacksonville covers seats up with tarps so their stadium doesn't look empty.

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12-17-2012, 01:26 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
From: @CraigCustance
Sent: Dec 17, 2012 12:37p

Horcoff also expects vote to pass: "We just feel at this point the union has done everything they can for us & we're not getting anywhere."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/CraigCustance/sta...28332084060162

IF decertification goes through it will be an interesting league for 12 months.
It's the same talking heads that keep making stupid comments, isn't it?

slam just had an article on Chara, saying all he wants is for the lockout to end. This from a guy who just a few weeks ago was spouting some non-sensical PA propaganda. Does that sound to anyone, like a guy who will be voting for the disclaimer? Do you think all the other cowardly lemmings hiding in Europe feel a whole lot different? Pacioretty can't even pay his bills, that sound like someone who will be voting for the disclaimer?

Say Horcoff, I have an idea. Why don't you try growing some brain cells? Anything's worth a shot, when you don't seem to have any.

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Old
12-17-2012, 01:35 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
From: @CraigCustance
Sent: Dec 17, 2012 12:37p

Horcoff also expects vote to pass: "We just feel at this point the union has done everything they can for us & we're not getting anywhere."

sent via web
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/CraigCustance/sta...28332084060162

IF decertification goes through it will be an interesting league for 12 months.
Keep in mind that this isn't a vote to decertify, it's a vote to allow the board to vote on decertifying.

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