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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-17-2012, 02:20 PM
  #26
seventieslord
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Although these four goalies differ in age by as much as 8 years, all of them played the entire 1990s against eachother and are therefore contemporaries. Here are their vezina records with the "Big 4" removed:

Joseph: 1-2-2-2-3-5
Barrasso: 1-1-1-2-2
Fuhr: 1-2-3-3-4-5-6-6
Vanbiesbrouck: 1-1-3-3-4-6-6-6

only seasons with two or more votes were counted.

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12-17-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The 1991 and 1992 Penguins (backstopped by Barrasso) allowed the 1st and 2nd most shots against per game in the playoffs by any Cup winning team of the modern era, right?
I think that's true. I think I had that factoid in an MLD bio of him.

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12-17-2012, 02:29 PM
  #28
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well, yeah. there is no conceivable way someone should be considering placing Alec Connell, for example, ahead of Giacomin. I'll give him that.
I have a really hard time placing Connell, but I think there's a case for him over Giacomin. For one, Connell has a reputation as a playoff performer, right? Giacomin definitely doesn't.

For another, most of Connell's prime seems to have been before we have full All-Star voting. We know he wasn't considered as good as Worters, but that's it.

The only season before 1930-31 for which we have All-Star voting is 1927-28, when Hainsworth broke the GAA record. And Connell was a single vote behind Hainsworth for 2nd:

Goal: Roy Worters, Pit (7-1), George Hainsworth, Mon (1-4), Alec Connell, Ott (1-3), John Ross Roach, Tor (1-1)

Then the fact that Connell was one of the first 5 goalies inducted into the HHOF:

1945: Charlie Gardiner, Georges Vezina
1958: Alec Connell, Hugh Lehman, Paddy Moran
1959: Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth, Percy LeSeuer

Paddy Moran and Percy LeSeuer were from an earlier generation, but does it mean something that Connell was inducted before contemporaries George Hainsworth, Clint Benedict (1965), and Roy Worters (1969)?

I'm certainly not arguing that we should consider Connell to be arguably better than those guys, but it definitely points to him being pretty good before the official All Star Teams came around.

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12-17-2012, 02:34 PM
  #29
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I made a profile for Connell in the pre-1950 goalies thread. I believe it was said his performance in the '35 playoffs (after a retirement? I forget) was the best or one of the best ever...I have no idea how to rank Connell as of yet.

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12-17-2012, 02:41 PM
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On another board, I'm doing a Pittsburgh Penguins all-time draft (I've caught the history bug, I know). I made this for Tom Barrasso, I thought I'd share it here. I'll bold this: This his Pittsburgh Penguin career only - not Buffalo!

Tom Barrasso

Position: Goaltender
6'3" / 210 lbs.
Catches: Right

As a Penguin (Nov. 1988 - Mar. 2000): 460 GP - 226 wins, 153 losses, 53 ties - 3.27 GAA, .896 save pct., 22 shutouts - playoffs: 101 GP - 56 wins, 42 losses - 2.91 GAA, .907 save pct., 6 shutouts

In Penguins history: 1st in GP, t-1st in wins, 6th in GAA, 5th in save pct., t-1st in shutouts

10 full seasons + 2 partial season = 12 seasons

2x Stanley Cup Champion (1991, 1992)

---

Award voting

Hart: 18th*
Vezina: 2nd, 3rd, t-7th*
All-Star Team: 2nd, 4th

* - one vote

---

Goaltending stats vs. the league: [top-12 finishes only]
1988-89: N/A for wins, GAA, save pct., shutouts
1989-90: Did not meet GP requirement
1990-91: 5th in wins, 10th in save pct., t-12th in shutouts
1991-92: t-10th in wins
1992-93: 1st in wins, 3rd in GAA, 4th in save pct., t-3rd in shutouts
1993-94: N/A for wins, GAA, save pct., shutouts
1994-95: Did not meet GP requirement
1995-96: t-9th in wins
1996-97: Did not meet GP requirement
1997-98: t-6th in wins, 3rd in GAA, 2nd in save pct., 6th in shutouts
1998-99: N/A for wins, GAA, save pct., shutouts
1999-00: Did not meet GP requirement

---

Goaltending stats vs. backups (note: "pts/gm" figure is measured by "gm = mins/60 - not traditional "GP" figure)

1988-89: 44 GP: 1.07 pts/gm, 4.04 GAA, .888 save pct., 0 shutouts
Backups (3): 49 GP: 1.09 pts/gm, 4.50 GAA, .871 save pct., 0 shutouts

1989-90: 24 GP: 0.79 pts/gm, 4.68 GAA, .865 save pct., 0 shutouts
Others (2): 67 GP: 0.93 pts/gm, 4.26 GAA, .870 save pct., 1 shutout

1990-91: 48 GP: 1.24 pts/gm, 3.59 GAA, .896 save pct., 1 shutout
Backups (2): 43 GP: 0.89 pts/gm, 3.97 GAA, .879 save pct., 0 shutouts

1991-92: 57 GP: 1.06 pts/gm, 3.53 GAA, .885 save pct., 1 shutout
Backups (3): 32 GP: 1.11 pts/gm, 4.13 GAA, .871 save pct., 0 shutouts

1992-93: 63 GP: 1.48 pts/gm, 3.01 GAA, .901 save pct., 4 shutouts
Backup: 25 GP: 1.23 pts/gm, 3.42 GAA, .887 save pct., 0 shutouts

1993-94: 44 GP: 1.19 pts/gm, 3.36 GAA, .893 save pct., 2 shutouts
Backup: 46 GP: 1.19 pts/gm, 3.29 GAA, .895 save pct., 1 shutout

1994-95: N/A - 2 games

1995-96: 49 GP: 1.29 pts/gm, 3.43 GAA, .902 save pct., 2 shutouts
Backup: 37 GP: 1.18 pts/gm, 3.24 GAA, .905 save pct., 3 shutouts

1996-97: N/A - 5 games

1997-98: 63 GP: 1.27 pts/gm, 2.07 GAA, .922 save pct., 7 shutouts
Backups (2): 32 GP: 0.94 pts/gm, 2.22 GAA, .915 save pct., 0 shutouts

1998-99: 43 GP: 1.07 pts/gm, 2.55 GAA, .901 save pct., 4 shutouts
Backups (2): 54 GP: 1.10 pts/gm, 2.63 GAA, .896 save pct., 5 shutouts

1999-00: 18 GP: 0.83 pts/gm, 3.17 GAA, .881 save pct., 1 shutout
Others (3): 78 GP: 1.03 pts/gm, 2.69 GAA, .863 save pct., 3 shutouts

In conjunction with coaching/tactical changes, usually necessitated by the loss of Mario Lemieux for various reasons, Barrasso responded very well to defensive minded teams (oh really?). In 1992-93, when Lemieux wasn't around for a good stretch, the team tightened up tremendously and Barrasso had a terrific year. In 1998, when Lemieux retired, the team hired drill sergeant Kevin Constantine to bring some defense to the table for the team. Once again, Barrasso was off the charts. In those situations also, it's important to note, that Barrasso got the lion's share of games. Given Barrasso's personality, he probably didn't want a backup goalie at all. And when he was in command of his crease, his play improved. So it's a chicken or the egg conundrum with Barrasso: did he play better to get more games? Or did he play better because he got more games? It doesn't help the mystery that the '93 and '98 Pens were two of the times in the Barrasso era where the Penguins weren't fun n' gun the entire season basically. So, add that to the equation. Did Barrasso's numbers go up because he played more or because the team played better defense?

It is important to note that Barrasso made the transition between eras. Something Fleury and Binkley did not have to do necessarily. Barrasso did his major development and early NHL work in the 80's - a time when goaltending had not kept up with the rest of the league's positions. Many of these goalies from the time struggled to make the transition from firewagon hockey (dead: ~1993) to the more structured, positionally-based goaltending of the mid and late 90's. Barrasso succeeded in transitioning and adaptation. Conversely, he failed to do it consistently and failed to make meaningful playoff in-roads after the era died.

His backups were of NHL quality and one of his consistent tandem mates is among the best backups in the league at the time I do believe. That's a product of Scotty Bowman (via Toe Blake), who was a terrific goalie manager.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends of Hockey
Pittsburgh's powerful offense needed some defensive help and having Barrasso in the crease was a major piece of the championship puzzle for the Penguins. In 1991 and 1992 Pittsburgh won the Stanley Cup, due in large part to Barrasso's outstanding play in the net. ||| During the 1996 playoffs there were flashes of the old brilliance and in particular in the Penguins' series against the Florida Panthers. Barrasso later became the first American born goalie to win 300 career NHL games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - May 25, 1991
Barrasso's stellar, often spectacular goaltending has been a key ingredient in the Penguins' drive to the Cup... ||| Here's something that you hear a lot: "Yeah, the Penguins won, 3-2, but they would have lost, 8-3, if not for Barrasso in goal."
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times - May 25, 1991
Tom Barrasso has been of Pittsburgh's better players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - May 27, 1991
Barrasso played Game 6 against the Minnesota North Stars Saturday night as if it were his last game. He took one for the team - a shot of pain-killer to the groin - then stood up to the North Stars' Neal Broten, who ran him in the opening seconds, stood up to 39 shots, stood up to his critics who long tormented him by saying he can't win the big games.

For a guy who was a questionable starter - the missed the final two periods of Game 5 Thursday night with a pulled groin muscle - Barrasso was at the top of the Penguins' long list of heroes in their 8-0 Cup-clinching victory.

...

The shutout, the first in the finals since 1986, was fairly indicative of Barrasso's play in the postseason. He finishes with a 12-7 record and had the best goals-against average (2.60) and save percentage (.919) of the playoff goaltenders. He easily could have won the Conn Smythe MVP award if Mario Lemieux had not played so spectacularly in the final three games against Minnesota.
Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Louis Post-Dispatch - Jun. 3, 1992
He already had one "Connie Smythe," as he called it, in his trophy case at home. He felt that Penguins goalie Tom Barrasso might have been a better choice this year for the award given to the most valuable player of the Stanley Cup playoffs. "I thought it was Tommy all the way,'' Lemieux said. "He was superb the last three games of the Washington series, when we came back from a 3-1 deficit. "He played unbelievable when we swept Boston. This should have gone to him, that's for sure."

...

Barrasso, 27, finished a distant second in the MVP voting, but he said he didn't feel the least bit slighted.
Editor's note: Never has Conn Smythe Trophy voting been released to my knowledge and I can't think of a time where it was mentioned so specifically before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times - Jan. 15, 1993
Barrasso, 27 years old, has been a key player on the Penguins' successive Stanley Cup championship teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times - Apr. 27, 1995
Barrasso made his first appearance in almost a year. ... He looked his sharpest in the seventh minute of the middle period when he sprawled to his right to stop Stephane Richer and denied MacLean's backhander from the slot a few seconds later.

"Tommy played well and he will probably play again on Sunday," Coach XX XXXXXXXX said of Barrasso. "He made the saves he had to when we needed it." While Barrasso was sharp, the Devils' goaltending was average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - May 21, 1996
It's easy to say now it was the right move. Tom Barrasso looked for a long time as if he might throw a perfect game against the Florida Panthers last night before settling for a beautiful two-hitter. Of course, it was the right move to start him instead of XXX XXXXXXX. ...[the coach] had no clue how Barrasso would play in his first start in 26 days.

...

"...I've been around goaltenders long enough to know when they're sharp. This guy was sharp. We also needed to get him in there because of the way Florida plays. They like to dump the puck in. Tommy controls the puck very well. We just thought he would give us a better chance to get it out." [Coach]

...

It shouldn't have been such a surpise. Barrasso is a big-time goaltender.

It's funny, much had been made by the media and fans before the game game of his 3-9 record in his previous 12 playoff decisions. It was as if he was completely responsible for those defeats. But that's just revisionist history. When was Barrasso so bad in the playoffs? In '93 against the New York Islanders? Maybe he wasn't right in Game 6 and 7 but it says here the Penguins would have won that series if Mario Lemieux hadn't had a bad back or Kevin Stevens hadn't gone down early in game 7. Did Barrasso stink against Washington in '94? The Capitals scored three or fewer goals in four of those six games. Last spring against Washington? Yeah, he was terrible in his one start but he never should have played. He missed all but two regular season games after wrist surgery. How about this spring against Washington? I thought Barrasso played well in the 6-4 loss in game 1, strange as that might sound. He was bad in Game 2 but came back to win Game 3, 4-1, "by himself," to quote [coach].

No offense to XXXXXXX, but Barrasso is the better goaltender. There is a reason he makes $2.5 million and has two Stanley Cup rings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaver County Times - Mar. 15, 2000
In his own way, Barrasso was a hockey version of Barry Bonds, a gifted player who seemed to havee a compulsion to make people not like him. Barrasso was everything his advance billing said he could be: arrogant, difficult, intelligent, and very talented. He was just 23 when the Penguins were able to get him because he'd worn out his welcome in Buffalo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pittsburgh Press - Mar. 31, 1989
Penguins goalie Tom Barrasso was subjected to 48 shots, roughly two of which did not constitute a serious scoring threat.||| ...the Penguins allowed the Whalers to pepper goalie Tom Barrasso with 48 shots and pester him with enough three-on-two break to fill a 90-minute practice session...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pittsburgh Press - Nov. 7, 1990
One guy Calgary couldn't beat very often was goalie Tom Barrasso, who began the game as XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX's backup and left it as the No. 3 star after stopping 26 of 27 shots in the final two periods. The words "Barrasso" and "backup" rarely appear in the same paragraph, but XXXXXXXXXX's strong play this season earned him a tenuous grip on the No. 1 job. Barrasso has head the locker-room whispers that he might be traded, but they don't appear to bother him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCS Hockey Guide - Jul. 15, 1994
He has to find a way to replace an aging defensive corp to help out Tom Barrasso (who had an excellent playoff series) in net and create a balanced offense that can be more efficient in the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Nov. 14, 1988
"...you have to give quality if you want to get quality." [Tony Esposito on the trade]. Still, if Barrasso pans out and the Penguins' goaltending situation is set for the next decade, te steep price tag will have been worth it.

...

Despite his reputation for arrogance and disruption, Barrasso is widely recognized as a top-flight talent. ...But Barrasso has been criticized for, among other things, an unwillingness to accept criticism. And he was reportedly upset this season when Daren Puppa beat him out as the Sabres' No. 1 goaltender. "I won't deny that that wasn't a problem and a factor," Buffalo GM Gerry Meehan told reporters.

But Esposito, a Hall of Famer who was hired as GM in April...said he prefers Barrasso to Moog. "That's not a very fair question," he told a reporter, "but I rate Barrasso a better goalie. Moog was a backup. I was after a bona fide No. 1 goaltender. I think he's the man."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pittsburgh Press - Nov. 13, 1988
Even Barrasso's critics acknowledge he is one of the finest goalies in the NHL, despite his history of mediocre playoff performances.
On the Penguins more defensive game that I referenced above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vindicator - Dec. 2, 1997
Left off the U.S. Olympic Team, Pittsburgh Penguins goalie Tom Barrasso took out his frustrations on the Montreal Canadiens. "...Tom's one of the best U.S. goalies. I don't know why he wasn't picked." [coach XXXXX XXXXXXXXXX]

...

Good defense: The Penguins, once an offensive juggernautled by Mario Lemieux, have focused their attention on playing tight defense since Lemieux's retirement following last season. Just ask the Canadiens. "They're a club that's really improved defensively," Montreal center Vincent Damphousse said. "They scored that goal in the third period, then they shut us down." - "They're playing better as a team and their coaching staff has them playing better defensively," Canadiens forward Shayne Corson said. "They're playing good hockey and they're a tough team right now."

"Now, we play defense, we play trap and it's tough to beat. We don't have the talent anymore..." [Jagr]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer Reporter - Feb. 12, 1993
Headline: Penguins Discover Defensive Rhythm - Haven't allowed a goal in 140 minutes.

Will the Penguins ever allow another goal? Defenseman Larry Murphy just laughed but the rest of the National Hockey League probably finds little humor in Pittsburgh's recent defensive play. Shifting gears without Mario Lemieux in the lineup, the Penguins have become the NHL's fourth-best defensive team after delivering back-to-back shutouts of Boston and New York - a franchise first.

"Everybody realizes without Mario that we're not going to score as much. The only way we can continue to win is if we cut down our goals against," says Murphy. "Everybody's made a conscious effort to improve in that area."

With Lemieux in the lineup over the first 41 games of the season, the Penguins allowed an average of 31.4 shots and 3.36 goals per agme. In 14 games without their captain, the guy who makes their incomparable run-and-gun game go, the Penguins are allowing an average of 28.9 shots and 2.71 goals per game. And they are 8-5-1.

This is precisely the kind of game coach XXXXXX XXXXXX had in mind when Lemieux was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Disease. "We've really shut down a lot of teams, some pretty good teams, too," XXXXXX said Thursday. "The goaltending has been outstanding. We have our defense intact, and we've been able to go with more players up front."

The forwards, meanwhile, have not balked at accepting more defensive responsibility, a fact that was plainly evident in the past two games. It isn't easy to play a tighter game, but the Penguins aren't looking for the easy way out.

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12-17-2012, 02:44 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Then the fact that Connell was one of the first 5 goalies inducted into the HHOF:

1945: Charlie Gardiner, Georges Vezina
1958: Alec Connell, Hugh Lehman, Paddy Moran
1959: Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth, Percy LeSeuer

Paddy Moran and Percy LeSeuer were from an earlier generation, but does it mean something that Connell was inducted before contemporaries George Hainsworth, Clint Benedict (1965), and Roy Worters (1969)?

I'm certainly not arguing that we should consider Connell to be arguably better than those guys, but it definitely points to him being pretty good before the official All Star Teams came around.
Think it has anything to do with Connell passing away mere weeks before voting in '58?

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12-17-2012, 02:45 PM
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Think it has anything to do with Connell passing away mere weeks before voting in '58?
I believe he died after, no?

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12-17-2012, 02:47 PM
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I believe he died after, no?
Really? May 10th would have been afterwards? If so, I stand corrected.

edit: You're right, it was 2 weeks afterward. Don't know why I remember it the other way around. Google should always be your friend. I guess it's the sympathy votes for the "lengthy illness" that I was going for anyway - voting him in so he'd live to see it, as opposed to voting him in posthumously.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 12-17-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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12-17-2012, 02:52 PM
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Ugh, I said I'd stop doing this, but with so many new candidates, maybe it helps

Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes

name1st2nd3rd4th5thtotal
Harry Lumley010113
Chuck Rayner100102
Rogie Vachon011002
John Vanbiesbrouck001012
Ed Giacomin010001
Grant Fuhr010001
Gump Worsley001001
Curtis Joseph000101
Tim Thomas000011

Holmes wasn't eligible for the Hart in his prime, Barrasso, Connell, and Cheevers never finished top 5.

Junk stat for team success

nameCupsfinalsSmythestotal
Hap Holmes47011
Grant Fuhr4408
Gump Worsley3306
Eddie Cheevers2406
Harry Lumley1405
Alec Connell2215
Tom Barrasso2204
Rogie Vachon1203
Tim Thomas1113
Chuck Rayner0112
Ed Giacomcin0101
John Vanbiesbrouck0101
Curtis Joseph0000

I'm including Retroactive Conn Smythes as determined by the HHOF. They only go back to 1918, so they don't include Holmes' 1st 2 Cups.

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12-17-2012, 03:07 PM
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Really? May 10th would have been afterwards? If so, I stand corrected.

edit: You're right, it was 2 weeks afterward. Don't know why I remember it the other way around. Google should always be your friend. I guess it's the sympathy votes for the "lengthy illness" that I was going for anyway - voting him in so he'd live to see it, as opposed to voting him in posthumously.
You're probably right. I did a quick search and his obituaries mention a "long illness," so the HHOF committee had to have been aware of it.

I'm satisfied that this solves the mystery of why Connell was inducted before some other guys.

Connell probably is a worthy HHOFer though. The HHOF committee did award him a Retro Smythe for 1927 (but not 1935) and Tommy Gorman said Connell's 1935 playoffs were the best he'd ever seen. So that's at least 2 elite playoffs for Connell.

I found this article from 1949 that calls "Fireman Alec Connell" an "All-Time Hockey Great:" http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ell+alec&hl=en

But I agree, rushing Connell in before he died from his illness is probably why he was inducted ahead of some other guys.

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12-17-2012, 03:09 PM
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You're probably right. I did a quick search and his obituaries mention a "long illness," so the HHOF committee had to have been aware of it.

I'm satisfied that this solves the mystery of why Connell was inducted before some other guys.

Connell probably is a worthy HHOFer though. The HHOF committee did award him a Retro Smythe for 1927 (but not 1935) and Tommy Gorman said Connell's 1935 playoffs were the best he'd ever seen. So that's at least 2 elite playoffs for Connell.

I found this article from 1949 that calls "Fireman Alec Connell" an "All-Time Hockey Great:" http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ell+alec&hl=en

But I agree, rushing Connell in before he died from his illness is probably why he was inducted ahead of some other guys.
I didn't even mean to suggest anything by it, and would be willing to vote him higher than Lehman, personally, but I bet you already guessed that.

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12-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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I like Joseph the best out of the Barrasso/Joseph/Beezer crowd. I think that, regular season and playoffs considered, he delivered the best continuous/consistent value for such a long time, that it outweighs their higher peaks. thoughts?

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12-17-2012, 03:15 PM
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I didn't even mean to suggest anything by it, and would be willing to vote him higher than Lehman, personally, but I bet you already guessed that.
There's little to suggest that Connell was ever better than the 3rd best goalie in hockey. Lehman, as the best goalie for over a decade in the PCHA, would have been anywhere from the best to the 3rd best continuously over that time.

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12-17-2012, 03:19 PM
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My current line of thinking is that I have (in alphabetical order) Tom Barrasso, Grant Fuhr, Hap Holmes, Chuck Rayner, and Gump Worsley a tier above the rest.

But I'm definitely open-minded about this.

Yes, MXD, I've seen the light on Rayner.

I didn't realize that Rayner was 3rd in All Star voting the season before he left for World War 2, missed 3 years, then came back and had the rest of his career (which included 3 2nd Teams). Lumley, on the other hand, got started in the NHL earlier than he otherwise would have because of the war.

As I said before, I'm a little suspicious of Lumley's 2 1st Team All Star nods, since he got them at a time when the 1st team always went to the GAA leader who played a minimum number of games, and because he never came close when he didn't lead the league in GAA.

Am I underrating Lumley by having him a step below Worsley and Rayner?

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12-17-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I like Joseph the best out of the Barrasso/Joseph/Beezer crowd. I think that, regular season and playoffs considered, he delivered the best continuous/consistent value for such a long time, that it outweighs their higher peaks. thoughts?
I think Jospeh is underrated by his awards record, since the best thing about Joseph is that he never had a bad season. Whereas awards recognize great seasons, so an up and down guy like Barrasso would get more recognition.

That said, Barrasso just accomplished so much more than Jospeh.

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12-17-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I like Joseph the best out of the Barrasso/Joseph/Beezer crowd. I think that, regular season and playoffs considered, he delivered the best continuous/consistent value for such a long time, that it outweighs their higher peaks. thoughts?
that said, I am not even 100% sure I have Joseph in my top-8.

I am definitely waiting to digest what everyone thinks of Thomas. Definitely some team effects there. I might by having buyer's remorse for where I placed him heading into this.

Lumley and Fuhr seem like the top guys to me right now. Maybe a cop-out, but I had Fuhr ahead of Smith in the end and I don't want to see them too far apart. And Lumley has two 1st team all-stars and the best hart record.

I know I'm not ready for Cheevers, and almost positive about Connell too. I can say I have Giacomin ahead of them. And I have Vachon ahead of Giacomin.

I can't see keeping Worsley and Holmes out this time, either.

Rayner vs. Lumley, that's a good one.

Tentatively I think this is where I'm leaning to start:

Lumley/Fuhr/Worsley/Holmes
Rayner/Vachon
Giacomin/Connell
Joseph
Vanbiesbrouck/Barrasso
Thomas
Cheevers

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12-17-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Jospeh is underrated by his awards record, since the best thing about Joseph is that he never had a bad season. Whereas awards recognize great seasons, so an up and down guy like Barrasso would get more recognition.

That said, Barrasso just accomplished so much more than Jospeh.
That's true, but given the transient nature of the top goalies list from year to year (look at the dregs who lucked into 2nd all-star teams) I think we need to be a little bit less about “accomplishment counting” and more about consistent, sustained performance.

Joseph was always, always above average. Barrasso was sometimes bad. A rich man’s Vernon. I see Beezer in the Joseph category, too, except he had some poor playoffs before earning the hero title in 1996.

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12-17-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I like Joseph the best out of the Barrasso/Joseph/Beezer crowd. I think that, regular season and playoffs considered, he delivered the best continuous/consistent value for such a long time, that it outweighs their higher peaks. thoughts?
I think I'd agree with that. Joseph is like the Marcel Dionne of goalies. He'd get far, far more recognition if a single playoff had worked out for him. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I think of him as just as much a playoff hero as the other two, so that smooths out some doubts about his Cup-lessness.

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12-17-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I think I'd agree with that. Joseph is like the Marcel Dionne of goalies. He'd get far, far more recognition if a single playoff had worked out for him. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I think of him as just as much a playoff hero as the other two, so that smooths out some doubts about his Cup-lessness.
You'll find that opinions of Joseph's quality of play in the playoffs vary widely. Some see him as the hero that saved Edmonton and Toronto's bacon, some call him a choker.

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12-17-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I am definitely waiting to digest what everyone thinks of Thomas. Definitely some team effects there. I might by having buyer's remorse for where I placed him heading into this.
I'm pretty sure I had Thomas lower than most, though I did have him in my top 60.

He gets a lot of mileage out of 2 Vezina Trophies. But his resume is so thin after that.

Picture this: Instead of two Vezina wins, Thomas has 1 win and 1 second place finish. How many people have him before Kiprusoff, Luongo, or Lundqvist - guys who aren't available yet?

Obviously, he needs to be ranked on what he actually accomplished, but there isn't that big a difference between an average Vezina season (2009 when Thomas easily won but over weak competition) and a second place finish.


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12-17-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's true, but given the transient nature of the top goalies list from year to year (look at the dregs who lucked into 2nd all-star teams) I think we need to be a little bit less about “accomplishment counting” and more about consistent, sustained performance.

Joseph was always, always above average. Barrasso was sometimes bad. A rich man’s Vernon. I see Beezer in the Joseph category, too, except he had some poor playoffs before earning the hero title in 1996.
Barrasso was a very very rich man's Vernon, considering Barrasso was top 2 in Vezina voting 4 times.

I think there's an argument that if Barrasso retires after the 1992 Cup, his career is better than Cujo's. Then he wouldn't have as many "bad seasons" to drag him down. How many of Barrasso's bad seasons were before 1992?

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12-17-2012, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You'll find that opinions of Joseph's quality of play in the playoffs vary widely. Some see him as the hero that saved Edmonton and Toronto's bacon, some call him a choker.
I guess I fall more on the positive side, though as always I could be convinced otherwise.

Goalies who come up huge every spring are pretty few and far between. We could find choking moments on every goalie's record -- even Roy took a lump when he was up for voting. To me a "choker" is someone who comes up small every year, and Joseph definitely wasn't that. His performance with Edmonton was one to tell the grandkids, so he did have that higher gear. Same as Beezer in '96, same as Barrasso in '91, so to me the playoff comparison seems like a big wash. It kicks back to the regular season where Joseph was good year in and year out.

The fact that Barrasso was a Penguin at just the right time isn't all that impressive to me unto itself. That doesn't elevate him over Beezer and Joseph in terms of individual performance.

Edit: Barrasso's Vezina record on the other hand might tilt the argument in his direction.

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12-17-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I guess I fall more on the positive side, though as always I could be convinced otherwise.

Goalies who come up huge every spring are pretty few and far between. We could find choking moments on every goalie's record -- even Roy took a lump when he was up for voting. To me a "choker" is someone who comes up small every year, and Joseph definitely wasn't that. His performance with Edmonton was one to tell the grandkids, so he did have that higher gear. Same as Beezer in '96, same as Barrasso in '91, so to me the playoff comparison seems like a big wash. It kicks back to the regular season where Joseph was good year in and year out.

The fact that Barrasso was a Penguin at just the right time isn't all that impressive to me unto itself. That doesn't elevate him over Beezer and Joseph in terms of individual performance.

Edit: Barrasso's Vezina record on the other hand might tilt the argument in his direction.
I don't think Jospeh is a choker either, but I don't think he really had a defining moment where he rose to the occasion. True, he had limited opportunities, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give Barrasso extra credit for rising to the occasion. I realize those Pens teams were stacked, but HawkeyTown posted proof that Barrasso finished (a distant) second to Mario Lemieux in Conn Smythe voting in 1992 - I have no idea how that reporter got his hands on the voting, but he reported it.

I also think the Vezina voting also points to Barrasso having had higher highs in the regular season than Cujo.

I knew that Barrasso vs Cujo would spark a debate - it really is a matter of peak vs consistency, I think.

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12-17-2012, 03:46 PM
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I'd really like to discuss Rogie Vachon in this round, if we could. Is Vachon a poor man's Worters? Good goalie on a bad team type of deal? Doesn't look as if Vachon is recognized quite as much as Worters was (thus Worters' placement already), but he seems to get some MVP love here and again...1974 he was one of just two goalies to get a vote (Espo), 1975 he was a pretty close 2nd to Bobby Clarke, 1976 he was named the starter of the 1976 Canada Cup roster (one of the best teams ever assembled I do believe) and was named Team MVP and the best goalie of the tournament, 1977 (back to the Hart stuff) behind Lafleur and Clarke and the only goalie known to have gotten a vote, in 1978 (though a single vote), he was one of just four goalies to get one (Edwards, Espo, Dryden).

That's a pretty strong peak relative to this crew I think...

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12-17-2012, 03:54 PM
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but there isn't that big a difference between an average Vezina season (2009 when Thomas easily won but over garbage competition) and a second place finish.
That's not particularly fair to Thomas' 2009, who was competing against a 4th Place Hart finisher. Calling Thomas' season a second-place finish is a little insulting when it would take a good argument to have many of the 2006-2012 Vezina performances ranked above him.

Boston, 2009
Thomas (.933)
Fernandez (.910) - Backup
League Average (.908)

2006: Kiprusoff (.923); LA (.901)
2007: Brodeur (.922); LA (.905)
2008: Brodeur (.920); LA (.909)
2009: Mason (.916); LA (.908) - Runner-Up
2010: Miller (.928); LA (.911)
2011: Thomas (.938); LA (.913)
2011: Rask (.918); LA (.913) - Backup
2012: Lundqvist (.930); LA (.914)

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