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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-17-2012, 02:54 PM
  #51
Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm pretty sure I had Thomas lower than most, though I did have him in my top 60.

He gets a lot of mileage out of 2 Vezina Trophies. But his resume is so thin after that.

Picture this: Instead of two Vezina wins, Thomas has 1 win and 1 second place finish. How many people have him before Kiprusoff, Luongo, or Lundqvist - guys who aren't available yet?

Obviously, he needs to be ranked on what he actually accomplished, but there isn't that big a difference between an average Vezina season (2009 when Thomas easily won but over weak competition) and a second place finish.
Not lower than me

Even if we talk about what was actually accomplished, Lundqvist has had a better career than Thomas. I'm not surprised to see Thomas available to us now and Lundqvist not, but if after actually researching this we slap Thomas on to this board at all, 25, 35, 40 AND don't include Lundqvist ahead of him, we have more explaining to do than Lucille Ball...

We'd look like a bunch of smacked-ass suckers if we give Thomas a spot on this thing...suckers. Fools.

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12-17-2012, 02:57 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think Jospeh is a choker either, but I don't think he really had a defining moment where he rose to the occasion.
Really?! I mean, if any goaltender in the Dead Puck Era had a defining playoff moment, it's Curtis Joseph. Twice.

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12-17-2012, 03:00 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Not lower than me

Even if we talk about what was actually accomplished, Lundqvist has had a better career than Thomas. I'm not surprised to see Thomas available to us now and Lundqvist not, but if after actually researching this we slap Thomas on to this board at all, 25, 35, 40 AND don't include Lundqvist ahead of him, we have more explaining to do than Lucille Ball...

We'd look like a bunch of smacked-ass suckers if we give Thomas a spot on this thing...suckers. Fools.
What?!

So Lundqvist plays 90 more games and that makes him better than Thomas? No matter that Thomas crushes him in playoffs, actually outperforms him in regular season too and has three times the award recognition?

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12-17-2012, 03:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'd really like to discuss Rogie Vachon in this round, if we could. Is Vachon a poor man's Worters? Good goalie on a bad team type of deal? Doesn't look as if Vachon is recognized quite as much as Worters was (thus Worters' placement already), but he seems to get some MVP love here and again...1974 he was one of just two goalies to get a vote (Espo), 1975 he was a pretty close 2nd to Bobby Clarke, 1976 he was named the starter of the 1976 Canada Cup roster (one of the best teams ever assembled I do believe) and was named Team MVP and the best goalie of the tournament, 1977 (back to the Hart stuff) behind Lafleur and Clarke and the only goalie known to have gotten a vote, in 1978 (though a single vote), he was one of just four goalies to get one (Edwards, Espo, Dryden).

That's a pretty strong peak relative to this crew I think...
I would also like to see Vachon discussed more this round. One thing to consider about Vachon when comparing him to some of the more recent goalies is that two guys ahead of him on this list that played at the same time were not in the NHL and therefore not competition for him for NHL stats and awards. How do we factor in something like that?

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12-17-2012, 03:03 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Lundqvist has had a better career than Thomas.
Quality Games

Regular Season
Thomas: 233-144 (.618)
Lundqvist: 283-184 (.606)

Playoffs
Thomas: 33-17 (.660)
Lundqvist: 28-27 (.509)


Tuukka Rask doesn't invalidate what Thomas has accomplished. Both of Thomas' Vezinas and Save Percentage titles came in years in which Fernandez and Rask were average. And Thomas is significantly better in the playoffs.

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12-17-2012, 03:23 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'd really like to discuss Rogie Vachon in this round, if we could. Is Vachon a poor man's Worters? Good goalie on a bad team type of deal? Doesn't look as if Vachon is recognized quite as much as Worters was (thus Worters' placement already), but he seems to get some MVP love here and again...1974 he was one of just two goalies to get a vote (Espo), 1975 he was a pretty close 2nd to Bobby Clarke, 1976 he was named the starter of the 1976 Canada Cup roster (one of the best teams ever assembled I do believe) and was named Team MVP and the best goalie of the tournament, 1977 (back to the Hart stuff) behind Lafleur and Clarke and the only goalie known to have gotten a vote, in 1978 (though a single vote), he was one of just four goalies to get one (Edwards, Espo, Dryden).

That's a pretty strong peak relative to this crew I think...
I think it's worth discussing Vachon too, but can we really consider adding him before Worsley goes up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Quality Games

Regular Season
Thomas: 233-144 (.618)
Lundqvist: 283-184 (.606)

Playoffs
Thomas: 33-17 (.660)
Lundqvist: 28-27 (.509)


Tuukka Rask doesn't invalidate what Thomas has accomplished. Both of Thomas' Vezinas and Save Percentage titles came in years in which Fernandez and Rask were average. And Thomas is significantly better in the playoffs.
That's an awfully large difference in games-played (90!) for two players who broke into the league at the same time. Thomas doesn't exactly rank high when it comes to durability.

And then there's the argument that Thomas has been fresher for the playoffs because he's better rested.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-17-2012 at 03:27 PM. Reason: addition for dummies
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Old
12-17-2012, 03:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That's not particularly fair to Thomas' 2009, who was competing against a 4th Place Hart finisher. Calling Thomas' season a second-place finish is a little insulting when it would take a good argument to have many of the 2006-2012 Vezina performances ranked above him.

Boston, 2009
Thomas (.933)
Fernandez (.910) - Backup
League Average (.908)

2006: Kiprusoff (.923); LA (.901)
2007: Brodeur (.922); LA (.905)
2008: Brodeur (.920); LA (.909)
2009: Mason (.916); LA (.908) - Runner-Up
2010: Miller (.928); LA (.911)
2011: Thomas (.938); LA (.913)
2011: Rask (.918); LA (.913) - Backup
2012: Lundqvist (.930); LA (.914)
I stand by what I actually said - Thomas' 2009 was an average Vezina year. If he had that exact same year in 2006, he would have finished 2nd behind Hart finalist Kiprusoff. If he had it in 2007, he would have finished 3rd behind Hart finalists Brodeur and Luongo. He would have competed with Brodeur and Nabokov in 2008 - not sure who would have won out of that trio. In 2010? Probably second to Miller.

In 2011? Second to himself from that year

In 2012? Probably third to Lundqvist and Quick.

Honestly, Thomas' 2009, while deserving of the Vezina, might have been the least impressive Vezina year since the lockout. It easily could have been a 2nd place finish in another year. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a weak Vezina like 1996 or anything; it was pretty average.

Edit: I mean, it wasn't that long ago. In 2008-09, did anyone think we were witnessing an all-time great season from Thomas? I sure didn't. He was the best goalie that year, quite clearly, but it wasn't some all-time amazing performance or anything.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-17-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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Old
12-17-2012, 03:42 PM
  #58
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We didn't mind putting Johnny Bower high on the list despite breaking in at a late age and spending time in the minors.

The thing about Thomas, he didn't just slum around in the AHL while waiting for a shot. He always chased the opportunity to be a starter somewhere, anywhere, when the Bruins slammed the door in his face every fall. Immediately prior to coming into the NHL and becoming the best goalie of the post-lockout era (ha), he tore up the AHL and absolutely wrecked the Finnish league. So while he may not have been in the NHL at the time, racking up GP like some of his competition here, he was certainly not playing at a sub-NHL level or giving us reason to think he was a fraud a few years later. I think we can reliably trace his high-end play to 2003, age 29, which is not particularly old for a goalie to hit his stride.

IMO, there is a very big difference between a goalie who gets stuck in the minors due to internal organizational politics, like Thomas and Bower, as opposed to one who is legitimately a minor leaguer working on his game. Thomas has been a top-shelf goalie for almost a decade now and that actually is a decent string of consistency and durability.

edit: That said, I'm not sure if he'll make my top-8 and he'll be pretty low if he does. But the standard criticism of his career path is, in my opinion, misguided.

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12-17-2012, 03:48 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Lumley/Fuhr/Worsley/Holmes
Rayner/Vachon
Giacomin/Connell
Joseph
Vanbiesbrouck/Barrasso
Thomas

Cheevers
We already have Dryden, Tretiak, Esposito, Parent, and Holecek who played all of the 1970s. Was the 1970s a golden era of goaltending where we want to add a 6th and a 7th already?

We currently only have 4 goalies who played a single game after 1989 and it's not like the 1990s was a crap era of goaltending.

(Fuhr did play until 2000, but he's not going to be added based on what he did in the 1990s)

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12-17-2012, 03:52 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
We didn't mind putting Johnny Bower high on the list despite breaking in at a late age and spending time in the minors.

The thing about Thomas, he didn't just slum around in the AHL while waiting for a shot. He always chased the opportunity to be a starter somewhere, anywhere, when the Bruins slammed the door in his face every fall. Immediately prior to coming into the NHL and becoming the best goalie of the post-lockout era (ha), he tore up the AHL and absolutely wrecked the Finnish league. So while he may not have been in the NHL at the time, racking up GP like some of his competition here, he was certainly not playing at a sub-NHL level or giving us reason to think he was a fraud a few years later. I think we can reliably trace his high-end play to 2003, age 29, which is not particularly old for a goalie to hit his stride.

IMO, there is a very big difference between a goalie who gets stuck in the minors due to internal organizational politics, like Thomas and Bower, as opposed to one who is legitimately a minor leaguer working on his game. Thomas has been a top-shelf goalie for almost a decade now and that actually is a decent string of consistency and durability.

edit: That said, I'm not sure if he'll make my top-8 and he'll be pretty low if he does. But the standard criticism of his career path is, in my opinion, misguided.
I definitely think we need to give Thomas credit for wrecking the Finnish league during the 2005 lockout. I don't think we should be giving a goalie who has only played more than 57 games once (when he played 66 in an unremarkable 2006-07 campaign) credit for durability though.

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12-17-2012, 04:05 PM
  #61
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I'm having a difficult time placing Lumley. I'd appreciate hearing some arguments both for and against him.

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12-17-2012, 04:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I stand by what I actually said - Thomas' 2009 was an average Vezina year. If he had that exact same year in 2006, he would have finished 2nd behind Hart finalist Kiprusoff. If he had it in 2007, he would have finished 3rd behind Hart finalists Brodeur and Luongo. He would have competed with Brodeur and Nabokov in 2008 - not sure who would have won out of that trio. In 2010? Probably second to Miller.

In 2011? Second to himself from that year

In 2012? Probably third to Lundqvist and Quick.

Honestly, Thomas' 2009, while deserving of the Vezina, might have been the least impressive Vezina year since the lockout. It easily could have been a 2nd place finish in another year. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a weak Vezina like 1996 or anything; it was pretty average.

Edit: I mean, it wasn't that long ago. In 2008-09, did anyone think we were witnessing an all-time great season from Thomas? I sure didn't. He was the best goalie that year, quite clearly, but it wasn't some all-time amazing performance or anything.
Oh, I understood what you said, and I think Thomas' 2009 is at worst the third best Vezina season from 2006-2012 (though if I'm putting Lundqvist from 2012 above it, I'd also be putting Quick above it by default - he was my Hart/Vezina pick). I don't think Backstrom or Mason were unimpressive competition for the time frame, considering 2008 just happened - a year that would give 1995 and 1996 a run for their money.

It doesn't have to be an all-time great season to be treated with more respect than saying that little separates it from a second-place finish. We shouldn't be asked to picture him with a Vezina and a second-place finish. Leading the league with a .933 in a year where the average is .908 and his backup has a .910 does not need to be pictured as a second-place finish, even if he was 14th in minutes.

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12-17-2012, 04:09 PM
  #63
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I definitely think we need to give Thomas credit for wrecking the Finnish league during the 2005 lockout. I don't think we should be giving a goalie who has only played more than 57 games once (when he played 66 in an unremarkable 2006-07 campaign) credit for durability though.
Then there's another word for what I'm trying to say. He is not the flash in the pan that his career track would suggest. He steadily performed well under all manner of circumstances, leagues, teams, coaches, until finally getting a non-politicized shot at an NHL starting job at which point he rapidly emerged as a Vezina contender.

When discussing Thomas, there is always a certain interpretation of his career that he stumbled into a perfect storm situation and is really just Dwayne Roloson masquerading as Dominik Hasek. That's just not the case, any more than it was with Bower.

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12-17-2012, 04:11 PM
  #64
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Really?! I mean, if any goaltender in the Dead Puck Era had a defining playoff moment, it's Curtis Joseph. Twice.
Like 70s said.. Curtis Joseph's playoff performances are ridiculously underrated by people who think somehow he was going to carry those teams farther than he already did.

He was a brilliant playoff goaltender who was unlucky in his circumstances.

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12-17-2012, 04:12 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I definitely think we need to give Thomas credit for wrecking the Finnish league during the 2005 lockout. I don't think we should be giving a goalie who has only played more than 57 games once (when he played 66 in an unremarkable 2006-07 campaign) credit for durability though.
Not to mention Lundqvist again, but I'll take wrecking the SEL in 2005 over the FEL.

I ranked Thomas behind Lundqvist on my original list and have regretted it since, but I really struggle to see how he's going to pass 5 guys this round and make a ballot.

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12-17-2012, 04:12 PM
  #66
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And just in case anyone even thinks about saying that save percentage is a flawed statistic specifically because of home and road splits and shot recording, Tim Thomas was a .938 on the road!

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12-17-2012, 04:13 PM
  #67
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We already have Dryden, Tretiak, Esposito, Parent, and Holecek who played all of the 1970s. Was the 1970s a golden era of goaltending where we want to add a 6th and a 7th already?
no, not already. But maybe next round.

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12-17-2012, 04:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Then there's another word for what I'm trying to say. He is not the flash in the pan that his career track would suggest. He steadily performed well under all manner of circumstances, leagues, teams, coaches, until finally getting a non-politicized shot at an NHL starting job at which point he rapidly emerged as a Vezina contender.

When discussing Thomas, there is always a certain interpretation of his career that he stumbled into a perfect storm situation and is really just Dwayne Roloson masquerading as Dominik Hasek. That's just not the case, any more than it was with Bower.
To add to this point, Thomas was an ECAC 1st Team All-Star twice, a NCAA East 2nd team All-Star once, an NCAA East 1st Team All-Star once, voted the best goalie in the FEL in 1998, and was voted the best player by both the media and the players in the FEL while there during the 2004-05 lockout. I'm not saying this to prove anything other than that he was consistently dominant wherever he played, at least judging by awards


Last edited by bluesfan94: 12-17-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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12-17-2012, 04:16 PM
  #69
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I ranked Thomas behind Lundqvist on my original list and have regretted it since, but I really struggle to see how he's going to pass 5 guys this round and make a ballot.
Don't get me wrong; I have him eighth going into this round based upon my Top-60. I just don't like that Mike Farkas claims that he shouldn't have come up to vote this soon, or that "we'd look like a bunch of smacked-ass suckers if we give Thomas a spot on this thing...suckers. Fools."

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12-17-2012, 04:25 PM
  #70
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no, not already. But maybe next round.
I'm pretty sure his "already" was not in reference to this voting round, but in reference to before we add one or two of the 80's/90's goalies whom you had ranked behind Vachon and Giacomin.

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12-17-2012, 04:34 PM
  #71
Mike Farkas
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To add to this point, Thomas was an ECAC 1st Team All-Star twice, a NCAA East 2nd team All-Star once, an NCAA East 1st Team All-Star once, voted the best goalie in the FEL in 1998, and was voted the best player by both the media and the players in the FEL while there during the 2004-05 lockout.
I'm sorry, first of all, I can't believe we're talking about Tim Thomas with only 24 names on the board of "best goaltenders in hockey history" - I mean, that's just disappointing. But I just don't get what this post has to do with anything relating to this project...what other goalies are getting credit for major junior and college success? That's not serious, right?

And being the best goalie in the 4th or 5th best league in the world, super...we didn't even dip this low for Holecek...

This is a great instance where we're creating a narrative to back numbers...and it's weird because the history unfolded in front of us...but look at how hard we have to reach to reverse justify these statistics! College all-star teams, a mid-tier professional program that has import rules, the AHL (not the pinnacle AHL like it was just before expansion, certainly, the "you aren't good enough to play in the NHL" AHL)...look at the strain to try to make it work for him...why? is there a big collusion, secret club thing that I'm not aware of?

Journeyman goalie finds defensive team - posts great numbers. Loses job. Posts great numbers. Quits. ...named one of the best goalies in history. Really? That didn't take much...my goodness...can we talk about something relevant now, please...I'm sorry to be so ornery here, but it's a complete waste of time to be discussing him...at least right now...we have to decide the 25th best goalie in hockey history now and we're sifting through NCAA All-Star teams from 20 years ago...what are we doing here?

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12-17-2012, 04:41 PM
  #72
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Not to mention Lundqvist again, but I'll take wrecking the SEL in 2005 over the FEL.
I don't see a ton of difference when talking about a league MVP.

Either way, he came back the following season and led the AHL in save% (not official because his recall to Boston left him a couple GP short) and then when called up he posted a .917 in the NHL (in 2006, when that was a good number). Clearly operating at a high level regardless of league and team.

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, but I really struggle to see how he's going to pass 5 guys this round and make a ballot.
I don't either, so I don't expect to be talking about him much more this round. But I thought it was necessary to rebut the strongly worded statements that he didn't belong on this list at all.

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12-17-2012, 04:42 PM
  #73
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And just in case anyone even thinks about saying that save percentage is a flawed statistic specifically because of home and road splits and shot recording, Tim Thomas was a .938 on the road!
It's a strange stat picture with Thomas that year.

Boston had the lowest GA but gave up an above average amount of shots.

Thomas faced more shots at home per 60 min than on the road, one of the signs of home over counting, yet had a much higher road SV%.

The opposite, and more normal, picture holds for Fernandez. Higher home SV%, more SOG/60 on the road, lower GAA at home.

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12-17-2012, 04:44 PM
  #74
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I'm sorry, first of all, I can't believe we're talking about Tim Thomas with only 24 names on the board of "best goaltenders in hockey history" - I mean, that's just disappointing. But I just don't get what this post has to do with anything relating to this project...what other goalies are getting credit for major junior and college success? That's not serious, right?

And being the best goalie in the 4th or 5th best league in the world, super...we didn't even dip this low for Holecek...

This is a great instance where we're creating a narrative to back numbers...and it's weird because the history unfolded in front of us...but look at how hard we have to reach to reverse justify these statistics! College all-star teams, a mid-tier professional program that has import rules, the AHL (not the pinnacle AHL like it was just before expansion, certainly, the "you aren't good enough to play in the NHL" AHL)...look at the strain to try to make it work for him...why? is there a big collusion, secret club thing that I'm not aware of?

Journeyman goalie finds defensive team - posts great numbers. Loses job. Posts great numbers. Quits. ...named one of the best goalies in history. Really? That didn't take much...my goodness...can we talk about something relevant now, please...I'm sorry to be so ornery here, but it's a complete waste of time to be discussing him...at least right now...we have to decide the 25th best goalie in hockey history now and we're sifting through NCAA All-Star teams from 20 years ago...what are we doing here?
Well said, I don't think there's anything that can be said to convince me to put Thomas on my ballot this round or the next.

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12-17-2012, 04:50 PM
  #75
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I'm pretty sure his "already" was not in reference to this voting round, but in reference to before we add one or two of the 80's/90's goalies whom you had ranked behind Vachon and Giacomin.
Yeah, I wasn't at all clear there, but thanks for parsing my poor wording and figuring out what I actually meant.

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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
To add to this point, Thomas was an ECAC 1st Team All-Star twice, a NCAA East 2nd team All-Star once, an NCAA East 1st Team All-Star once, voted the best goalie in the FEL in 1998, and was voted the best player by both the media and the players in the FEL while there during the 2004-05 lockout. I'm not saying this to prove anything other than that he was consistently dominant wherever he played, at least judging by awards
The only one of those that I think is meaningful in an All-Time context is being voted the best player in the FEL during the lockout when there were NHL-calibre players in the FEL. The minor league stuff is meaningless when we're talking players of this calibre, IMO - it might be different if it were the AHL in the Original 6 era, but it isn't.

Being voted best goalie in the FEL in 1998 COULD be meaningful if it was over someone who was NHL-calibre, but I highly doubt it was.

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