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Gagner at 2c

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:13 PM
  #26
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Gags is not the best #2 C but he is definitely not the worst. Some posters on hfoil love to demonize him as an unideal #2 C.

Guess what? He's our best option...for now. I would not want to part ways with Gagner until we have a true legit #2 C to replace him. And no, his name is not Shawn Horcoff.

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
Depends on what you want out of your 3C. If you want to run 3 scoring lines with the fourth as a checking line, Ganger would be a great option. If you want a more classic top 6/bottom 6 dichotomy then he wouldn't fit.

I think a lot of people here are looking at hunk of bronze ore and trying to carve David, rather than refining the ore and sculpting Gretzky.
I think they see Gagner for what he is after 5 full seasons of not hitting 20 goals or 50 points dispite playing top line minutes for a lot of the time with highly skilled players. He also has only ever been a + player once and has never been good on faceoffs.

Like his dad said when he was drafted he aint a bunny but he should be a pretty fast turtle.

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12-17-2012, 12:46 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
I think they see Gagner for what he is after 5 full seasons of not hitting 20 goals or 50 points dispite playing top line minutes for a lot of the time with highly skilled players. He also has only ever been a + player once and has never been good on faceoffs.

Like his dad said when he was drafted he aint a bunny but he should be a pretty fast turtle.
You are still missing the point. The team is the hunk of bronze. Maybe it needs a marble pedestal to be perfect but the fact is it is too early be thinking about that.

And lol at +/-.

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12-17-2012, 01:54 PM
  #29
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Too much of an issue is being made of Gagner's size. Sakic, Gretzky and Yzerman were Gagner's size. RNH and P Kane are quite a bit smaller.

It's like people expect a 2nd line center to be laying the body on people but the truth is that big hitting centers are very rare. Bobby Holik is the only guy that pops to mind as having a rep for consistantly throwing hard hits, having success at both ends of the rink and a long, healthy career. Even Lindros, at 6'4 245 lbs, couldn't play that style and stay healthy. When you play in the middle and you're expected to carry the puck you can't make enemies or you eventually get caught.

Gagner was strong enough to play in the NHL at 18 and he's still going to get stronger, physically he's capable of being a good #2C. If the Oilers want size and strength the place for that is on the wing. If the Oilers could package a winger and some picks/prospects for Lucic I'd be all over it.

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12-17-2012, 02:22 PM
  #30
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My prediction: Oilers trade Gagner away for a draft pick and a unimportant player.

Gagner matures after 2 years with new team and becomes a #1 centre (or atleast very close to one)

HFOil blasts whoever traded Gagner and says something silly like "TOLD YOU WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TRADED HIM"

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Old
12-17-2012, 02:26 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
You are still missing the point. The team is the hunk of bronze. Maybe it needs a marble pedestal to be perfect but the fact is it is too early be thinking about that.

And lol at +/-.
The team is shaping up very nicely actually.

Power forward - elite offensive center, with good awareness - 2 way sniper
pure goal scorer/sniper - ??? - excelent playmaker
Rugged forward - good defensive center - speedy 2 way player.

??? /= weak, average offensive center with less than average awareness.

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12-17-2012, 02:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Too much of an issue is being made of Gagner's size. Sakic, Gretzky and Yzerman were Gagner's size. RNH and P Kane are quite a bit smaller.

Gagner was strong enough to play in the NHL at 18 and he's still going to get stronger, physically he's capable of being a good #2C. If the Oilers want size and strength the place for that is on the wing. If the Oilers could package a winger and some picks/prospects for Lucic I'd be all over it.
All of those players had elite level awareness and above average speed. They are also all much stronger on their skates than SS. RNH is actually taller than Gagner and way stronger on his skates and on the puck at 18 than the 23 year old Gagner will ever be. He hits people and hurts them, he doesnt back down, but he does it smartly instead of taking beatings like Gagner has done. Gagner has played 5 full NHL seasons. What you see is what you get.

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12-17-2012, 02:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Too much of an issue is being made of Gagner's size. Sakic, Gretzky and Yzerman were Gagner's size. RNH and P Kane are quite a bit smaller.

It's like people expect a 2nd line center to be laying the body on people but the truth is that big hitting centers are very rare. Bobby Holik is the only guy that pops to mind as having a rep for consistantly throwing hard hits, having success at both ends of the rink and a long, healthy career. Even Lindros, at 6'4 245 lbs, couldn't play that style and stay healthy. When you play in the middle and you're expected to carry the puck you can't make enemies or you eventually get caught.

Gagner was strong enough to play in the NHL at 18 and he's still going to get stronger, physically he's capable of being a good #2C. If the Oilers want size and strength the place for that is on the wing. If the Oilers could package a winger and some picks/prospects for Lucic I'd be all over it.
Bringing up Gretzky, Sakic, Yzermam et al is not really helping your point. No one would object to having any of those guys rather than Gagner.

I also believe that you misunderstand many peoples issues with Gagner. Most of us who feel he needs to be replaced see him as too one dimensional for the role he needs to play on this team. His game is based on offensive potential, driven by a fairly high hockey IQ. But right now he sits behind Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov and Schultz in terms of his place in the pecking order as far as offense goes. This is even without including Hemsky in the mix. So he needs to present a game that fits the players in front of him not the other way around. I don't think he does.

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12-17-2012, 02:42 PM
  #34
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Oiler mandate is to draft your own. Gagner has been here a while now and is doing just fine. Not only that he likes it here, and is young enough to mesh with our core.

I think that part of this has to do with Horcoff being a less than satisfactory 3C. And with his immovable contract we cannot upgrade our 3C, so let's get a bigger and badder 2C. I don't agree with this.

Horcoff will retire eventually, hopefully Gagner improves his defensive game, and perhaps our Swedes (Pajaarvi and Lander) can add some more grit to their game as well. We will be fine.

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Old
12-17-2012, 02:49 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jukon View Post
Oiler mandate is to draft your own. Gagner has been here a while now and is doing just fine. Not only that he likes it here, and is young enough to mesh with our core.

I think that part of this has to do with Horcoff being a less than satisfactory 3C. And with his immovable contract we cannot upgrade our 3C, so let's get a bigger and badder 2C. I don't agree with this.

Horcoff will retire eventually, hopefully Gagner improves his defensive game, and perhaps our Swedes (Pajaarvi and Lander) can add some more grit to their game as well. We will be fine.
Take a look at the #2C of all the playoff teams in the West and tell me how Gagner compares.

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Old
12-17-2012, 03:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
The team is shaping up very nicely actually.

Power forward - elite offensive center, with good awareness - 2 way sniper
pure goal scorer/sniper - ??? - excelent playmaker
Rugged forward - good defensive center - speedy 2 way player.

??? /= weak, average offensive center with less than average awareness.
47 points isn't average for a 2nd line center at his age. He was 2 points behind Kesler. That's actually a respectable number and likely to get higher.

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12-17-2012, 03:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Take a look at the #2C of all the playoff teams in the West and tell me how Gagner compares.
Kesler 49, Gagner 47, M Richards 44 (Cup Winner), Fisher (Nas) 51, Berglund/Arnott (StL) 38/34, Pho didn't have a 2nd liner with 40 points.


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Old
12-17-2012, 04:13 PM
  #38
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Bringing up Gretzky, Sakic, Yzermam et al is not really helping your point. No one would object to having any of those guys rather than Gagner.
It's helping my point 1,000% - my point is that he's not too small and I just made a list of 5 centers better than Joe Thornton and 50 lbs smaller.

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12-17-2012, 04:18 PM
  #39
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But right now he sits behind Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov and Schultz in terms of his place in the pecking order as far as offense goes.
You're putting Schultz ahead of Gagner and he hasn't played an nhl shift yet? There's a good chance that he never tops 49 points.

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12-17-2012, 04:28 PM
  #40
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What is the likelihood of gagner ever leading any pro league in scoring and/or ever being tied with Eberle in points?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say never.

Also lol @ comparing Ganger to Kesler, Richards et al............those guys bring things to the table that Gagner never will.

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Old
12-17-2012, 04:37 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
All of those players had elite level awareness and above average speed. They are also all much stronger on their skates than SS. RNH is actually taller than Gagner and way stronger on his skates and on the puck at 18 than the 23 year old Gagner will ever be. He hits people and hurts them, he doesnt back down, but he does it smartly instead of taking beatings like Gagner has done. Gagner has played 5 full NHL seasons. What you see is what you get.
Have you ever even seen Gretzky play or are you just guessing? The guy got sprung for breakaways over and over and got caught by avg nhl defensemen. He was anything and everything but fast. What RNH, Gretzky and Kane have on Gagner is agility.

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12-17-2012, 04:37 PM
  #42
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The problem isn't with Gagner per se, it's with his fit on the club.
The top 6 is full of skilled, offensive players who are either average or below average defensively outside of the possible exception of RNH. There's not a lot of physical, 2 way ability with these guys so against teams that clog up the neutral zone and take the body, the Oilers struggle immensely so something needs to change in the top 6.

Obviously, Hemsky would be the first guy that comes to mind to deal away but i believe that there's more of a market for a young player like Gagner than an injury prone player like Hemsky so with Hall, RNH, Eberle and Yakupov being ahead of Gagner on the depth chart, it's only natural to want to upgrade Gagner's position.
There is no way that a group of Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yakupov and Gagner will succeed at a high level IMO especially with the NHL turning into a grinding league. There's simply not enough all around diversity in that group.
Gagner is a good player and he should have a nice career but it will likely be elsewhere.
With that being said, they shouldn't look to deal him unless they have a contingency plan in place so he should be here for at least another year.


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Old
12-17-2012, 04:41 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
What is the likelihood of gagner ever leading any pro league in scoring and/or ever being tied with Eberle in points?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say never.

Also lol @ comparing Ganger to Kesler, Richards et al............those guys bring things to the table that Gagner never will.
Never said Gagner would lead a league but do you want to wager on Schultz getting 49 next season?

I don't think that Gagner has to be a top 5 2nd line center in the league in order for the Oil to win, but what do you think the Oil will have to give up to get one?

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12-17-2012, 04:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Kesler 49, Gagner 47, M Richards 44 (Cup Winner), Fisher (Nas) 51, Berglund/Arnott (StL) 38/34, Pho didn't have a 2nd liner with 40 points.
Maybe LA will agree to swap Richards for Gagner. After all 47 points is better than 44 points.

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12-17-2012, 05:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Have you ever even seen Gretzky play or are you just guessing? The guy got sprung for breakaways over and over and got caught by avg nhl defensemen. He was anything and everything but fast. What RNH, Gretzky and Kane have on Gagner is agility.
Dont know where you come from or what you were watching but Gretzky rarely got caught from behind on breakaways.

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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Never said Gagner would lead a league but do you want to wager on Schultz getting 49 next season?

I don't think that Gagner has to be a top 5 2nd line center in the league in order for the Oil to win, but what do you think the Oil will have to give up to get one?
You scoffed at Schultz due to his "never played" an nhl game yet. Im saying what he is doing right now, is something that Gagner could not do.

I think Schultz will outscore Gagner, if that is what you are driving at. But who knows if there is even going to be a season or an Edmonton Oilers or a NHL at this point.

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Old
12-17-2012, 05:18 PM
  #46
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Take a look at the #2C of all the playoff teams in the West and tell me how Gagner compares.
And how many of these players are available? How will you get them? When they come to Edmonton will they be as good as they were elsewhere? Will they like Edmonton or will they stay for a few years and leave for warmer weather?

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12-17-2012, 06:03 PM
  #47
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Gagner has actual NHL linemates to play with today when the lockout ends. 23 years old.

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12-17-2012, 07:21 PM
  #48
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Kesler 49, Gagner 47, M Richards 44 (Cup Winner), Fisher (Nas) 51, Berglund/Arnott (StL) 38/34, Pho didn't have a 2nd liner with 40 points.
There's more to a player than points, if you had to win one game would you take him over any of those players with the possible exception of a well past his prime Arnott?

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12-17-2012, 07:42 PM
  #49
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I'm starting to think Arcobello might be a better 2C than Gagner.
I know it sounds a little crazy but he seems to have excellent chemistry with both Schultz (especially) and Eberle. He also seems to have better on-ice vision than Gagner. I'd be willing to at least try him out in the NHL.

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12-17-2012, 07:49 PM
  #50
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Gagner has actual NHL linemates to play with today when the lockout ends. 23 years old.
What are you trying to say? That he hasn't had NHL-calibre linemates yet?

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