HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VI

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-16-2012, 06:15 PM
  #626
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
As far as prospect development goes, the Sabres have turned a bunch of guys who needed time on the farm into NHLers (like Gerbe, Stafford, MacArthur, Roy, Pommonville, Ennis, Kaleta, Miller,Sekera, Weber, Adam, Foligno, McNabb, Kassian, Enorth, Paille, Gaustad, Campbell, Kalinin etc.)


while the Canucks have less guys (Hansen, Burrows, Raymond, Grabner, Tanev, Hodgson, Bieksa, Allen, Cooke, Ruutu and Schneider).
Bolded are top two round picks.

I think their drafting is straight up better, it's why their top two rounds ALWAYS seem to produce players.

I think the substantial number of top 60 picks that turn into players has more to do with drafting than development (not to mention quite a few of the other players were 3rd round picks too, so they're getting players at the top of their drafts, which makes the stars they get after the 3rd even better - Miller, Campbell, as well as core role players like Gaustad and Kaleta.

But quite clearly their development is good too.

arsmaster is online now  
Old
12-16-2012, 06:17 PM
  #627
DJOpus
Registered User
 
DJOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
DJ, I don't think guys like Roy, Ennis, Paille, Stafford, MacArthur, Pominville, Kassian are guys that were projects that developed well/or are players that flourished as a result of Buffalo's system. That said, I think your point is still fairly strong.
Pommonville was a 2nd round pick that spent parts of 4 seasons on the farm.

Roy was a 2nd round pick that played parts of 3 seasons on the farm.

Paille was a mid to late first (20) that spent parts of 3 years on the farm.

McCarthur was a 3rd rounder that spent parts of 4 seasons on the farm.

Kassian was a mid first who had already spent part of a season on the farm and IMO should have stayed there if it want for public opinion...he was developing well on the farm.

Ennis and Stafford were mid to late 1sts that only spent part of a season on the farm. So you are correct on them.

Most of the guys you listed are the exact guys we are failing to develop. Top 3 round picks that require some development... The Schroeders, Sauves, and Rodins that don't seem to be progressing well.

DJOpus is offline  
Old
12-16-2012, 06:18 PM
  #628
timw33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,772
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Bolded are top two round picks.

I think their drafting is straight up better, it's why their top two rounds ALWAYS seem to produce players.

I think the substantial number of top 60 picks that turn into players has more to do with drafting than development (not to mention quite a few of the other players were 3rd round picks too, so they're getting players at the top of their drafts, which makes the stars they get after the 3rd even better - Miller, Campbell, as well as core role players like Gaustad and Kaleta.

But quite clearly their development is good too.
Buffalo consistently chugs out NHL players in different roles, waaaay better than us. They capitalize on their top 90 picks pretty consistently too.

timw33 is online now  
Old
12-16-2012, 06:23 PM
  #629
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,193
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Most of the guys you listed are the exact guys we are failing to develop. Top 3 round picks that require some development... The Schroeders, Sauves, and Rodins that don't seem to be progressing well.

Part of me wonders if we are failing to develop them or if we fail at drafting them. I'm not too sure. One thing I know is that our system does not like to spend much time preaching offensive creativity, that's for sure.

Reverend Mayhem is online now  
Old
12-17-2012, 12:11 AM
  #630
jigsaw99
Registered User
 
jigsaw99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,925
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Part of me wonders if we are failing to develop them or if we fail at drafting them. I'm not too sure. One thing I know is that our system does not like to spend much time preaching offensive creativity, that's for sure.
probably both. It's been a consistent mediocre results through out the history of the organization.

jigsaw99 is online now  
Old
12-17-2012, 01:19 AM
  #631
B-rock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Part of me wonders if we are failing to develop them or if we fail at drafting them. I'm not too sure. One thing I know is that our system does not like to spend much time preaching offensive creativity, that's for sure.
I think our problem is twofold, and it still persists under Gillis. After the 1st round we go for some odd ball type of homerun, BS type pick in the 2nd or 3rd round instead of taking the BPA or consensus BPA. Consistently too cute in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. This problem is compounded by the fact that we often don't have a 2nd rounder and as a result make some desperate attempt at gaining some type of special player with an early 3rd or 4th. The result is that the pick is a big reach instead of just a cut and dry development project for a run of the mill 2nd rounder. I also think the Canucks are just generally bad at drafting skilled forwards after the 1st round.

Gillis believes the Canucks prospects can get a leg up on their competition through their development system, but if you're consistently drafting long shots in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, no amount of development is going to help them. If he has so much faith in his development system, then he would be much further ahead to draft solid 2nd and 3rd rounders and let them develop into above average NHL players rather than drafting reaches and just hoping that they make the NHL.
Some examples that come to mind are Sauve, Honzik, Grenier, Mallet, and to a lesser extent Rodin.

Having said all that, I do think the Canucks have keyed in on something with their later round defense picks. Under Gillis they seem to have identified something and it seems to be working for them with picks like Connauton, Price, Andersson, McNally, Corrado and Hutton. Definitely have found some sort of 2 way defenseman niche and are identifying talent on a fairly consistent basis. They may not all make it to the show but that they are even making it to the AHL is a big progression from where they stood before Gillis took over. If they could transfer this ability to forwards we could really have something.

B-rock is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 02:18 AM
  #632
vanuck
Griffiths Way Goons
 
vanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 10,036
vCash: 250
^ True. With us, sometimes (?) it seems like the concept of BPA doesn't exist after the 1st round.

vanuck is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 03:57 AM
  #633
serge2k
Registered User
 
serge2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
He's playing on what's basically a 4 man unit of him, Eberle, Hall, and RNH. What do you expect? Wolves meanwhile can barely score and have their offensive guys spread out across 3 lines. Not to mention that Schultz is older.

Besides, they pretty much just kill teams on the PP which is where the talent of those 4 can really come through. They don't actually score very much at ES.

I don't get this desire by some in our fanbase to constantly tear into our prospects. Always the same posters too. Yes, they're not as good as 2 #1 picks + a Top 30 NHL forward + one of the most prized free agent defesemen in years. Shocking..
.
Might be because it's been a decade since keslers draft with a 2nd/3rd liner being the best result.

serge2k is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 09:35 AM
  #634
PensFan6687
Registered User
 
PensFan6687's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,999
vCash: 500
Sorry it's been a while old forum friends, but how has my fav, Eddie Lack been doing? Statistically his season looks disappointing. Has he lost a bit of edge/confidence to his game, because his key component was just that, his big confidence and equally big ego or is he a product of the team's system not fulfilling assignments? Or... yes, or again! Is it a little from column A and a little from column B?

PensFan6687 is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 10:14 AM
  #635
Yossarian54
Registered User
 
Yossarian54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth, WA
Country: Australia
Posts: 1,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
Sorry it's been a while old forum friends, but how has my fav, Eddie Lack been doing? Statistically his season looks disappointing. Has he lost a bit of edge/confidence to his game, because his key component was just that, his big confidence and equally big ego or is he a product of the team's system not fulfilling assignments? Or... yes, or again! Is it a little from column A and a little from column B?
Currently, it is an injury that looks like it could last a while.

Yossarian54 is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 10:16 AM
  #636
Yossarian54
Registered User
 
Yossarian54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth, WA
Country: Australia
Posts: 1,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rock View Post
I think our problem is twofold, and it still persists under Gillis. After the 1st round we go for some odd ball type of homerun, BS type pick in the 2nd or 3rd round instead of taking the BPA or consensus BPA. Consistently too cute in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. This problem is compounded by the fact that we often don't have a 2nd rounder and as a result make some desperate attempt at gaining some type of special player with an early 3rd or 4th. The result is that the pick is a big reach instead of just a cut and dry development project for a run of the mill 2nd rounder. I also think the Canucks are just generally bad at drafting skilled forwards after the 1st round.
I think statistically, the chances of acquiring an actual NHL player after the 1st/2nd round are so low, you may as well swing for the fences. However, the success of that strategy necessarily relies on a better quality of scouting. Which I think it's clear we lack.

Yossarian54 is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 10:47 AM
  #637
LPH
[hello] :)
 
LPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Granduland
Country: United States
Posts: 40,394
vCash: 50
we could just start drafting people with the best names, even if they only make it to the wolves I would still love to have an all name team

seems like as viable as the strategy we are currently implementing.

LPH is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 12:19 PM
  #638
Laterade
Registered User
 
Laterade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
Sorry it's been a while old forum friends, but how has my fav, Eddie Lack been doing? Statistically his season looks disappointing. Has he lost a bit of edge/confidence to his game, because his key component was just that, his big confidence and equally big ego or is he a product of the team's system not fulfilling assignments? Or... yes, or again! Is it a little from column A and a little from column B?
Nagging injuries have stalled his progress a bit so his confidence might be a little bit low, but I'm sure he will be lights out when he's 100% healthy.

Laterade is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 01:56 PM
  #639
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,292
vCash: 500
Wasn't Edler a swing for the fences pick? Wasn't Bieksa even? They don't always work, but when you get one you're sure happy you tried it. Edler was right off the charts, look how that turned out for us.

It's hard to get NHL'ers in the 3rd round and beyond. Heck, even the 2nd round is a stretch. We need impact players in those rounds since our draft position is so lousy, so I don't mind employing this strategy. We may end up getting more busts in the 3rd round and beyond, but as long as we get a couple of impact players along with that then we should be fine overall. Corrado may be one that works out well, and there are a few others such as Mallet, Connauton, and McNally that could boom instead of bust.

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 02:36 PM
  #640
Lundface
Registered User
 
Lundface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,283
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Wasn't Edler a swing for the fences pick? Wasn't Bieksa even? They don't always work, but when you get one you're sure happy you tried it. Edler was right from Detroit's charts, look how that turned out for us.

It's hard to get NHL'ers in the 3rd round and beyond. Heck, even the 2nd round is a stretch. We need impact players in those rounds since our draft position is so lousy, so I don't mind employing this strategy. We may end up getting more busts in the 3rd round and beyond, but as long as we get a couple of impact players along with that then we should be fine overall. Corrado may be one that works out well, and there are a few others such as Mallet, Connauton, and McNally that could boom instead of bust.
fixed

Lundface is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 02:58 PM
  #641
deckercky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,664
vCash: 500
Detroit was going to pick him, but Vancouver and Detroit were the only two who had seen him and he obviously was on Vancouver's list. They just bumped him lower when they heard Detroit was picking him.

deckercky is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 03:27 PM
  #642
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,000
vCash: 500
I think Gillis has been great in round 1, and rounds 3-7, but he needs his scouts to do better in the 30-100 range. Need to start picking WHL and OHL guys in this range and stay out of the Q more.

StringerBell is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 04:04 PM
  #643
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian54 View Post
I think statistically, the chances of acquiring an actual NHL player after the 1st/2nd round are so low, you may as well swing for the fences. However, the success of that strategy necessarily relies on a better quality of scouting. Which I think it's clear we lack.
I don't mind swinging for the fences on high skilled guys in those rounds. Just don't go way off the board, target a boom/bust player from that BPA group (1st round Best Player Available, 2+ best Players available group).

I feel Mallett fits into this, not the most skilled or in the BPA group. Worth taking but not in the 2nd.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 04:04 PM
  #644
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I think Gillis has been great in round 1, and rounds 3-7, but he needs his scouts to do better in the 30-100 range. Need to start picking WHL and OHL guys in this range and stay out of the Q more.
They just need to pick better players, not off the board picks who aren't even ranked by central scouting.

arsmaster is online now  
Old
12-17-2012, 05:10 PM
  #645
LickTheEnvelope
6th Overall Blows
 
LickTheEnvelope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 27,930
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I think Gillis has been great in round 1, and rounds 3-7, but he needs his scouts to do better in the 30-100 range. Need to start picking WHL and OHL guys in this range and stay out of the Q more.
On the + side it's been a bit better than Burke/Nonis where the Nucks never had picks in that range... or took Ellingtons...

LickTheEnvelope is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 05:22 PM
  #646
PRNuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
They just need to pick better players, not off the board picks who aren't even ranked by central scouting.
A thousand times this. Gillis isn't doing a terrible job, but he needs to understand he's not so much smarter than everyone else that he knows things they don't.

PRNuck is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 05:38 PM
  #647
Hansen 36
BASED JIM BENNING
 
Hansen 36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,188
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
A thousand times this. Gillis isn't doing a terrible job, but he needs to understand he's not so much smarter than everyone else that he knows things they don't.
I agree. I will also laugh very hard though if all of his guys like LaBate, Hutton, Beattie and Myron end up being decent players though.

Hansen 36 is online now  
Old
12-17-2012, 05:40 PM
  #648
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansen 36 View Post
I agree. I will also laugh very hard though if all of his guys like LaBate, Hutton, Beattie and Myron end up being decent players though.
Labate is unlike the others. He was a first time eligible that was ranked.

IIRC all the others were passed over at least once and were not ranked by central scouting.

Edit* Beattie was ranked 108th in the final rankings from central scouting.


Last edited by arsmaster: 12-17-2012 at 05:46 PM.
arsmaster is online now  
Old
12-17-2012, 05:45 PM
  #649
PRNuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansen 36 View Post
I agree. I will also laugh very hard though if all of his guys like LaBate, Hutton, Beattie and Myron end up being decent players though.
I have no problem with his "outside the box" late round picks, it's the Mallett and Grenier picks that make me die inside.

PRNuck is offline  
Old
12-17-2012, 06:18 PM
  #650
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,445
vCash: 5555
I've said it a thousand times, don't just draft big overagers that might become a grinder for us in the later rounds. Take really skilled guys that fell due to injury concerns/KHL worries, so on the off chance it pays off, we can get an actual impact player.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.