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12-17-2012, 07:10 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
There's more to a player than points, if you had to win one game would you take him over any of those players with the possible exception of a well past his prime Arnott?
There are lots of players people would take over Gagner.

But the NHL is not a fantasy league, and the real disconnect in the arguement is that the Oilers somehow have the option of replacing Gagner with someone bigger/better when they spent the better part of a decade fruitlessly trying to obtain centers anywhere as good as Gagner in the first place. Endless fantasy trades for unavaliable players, citing teams with 2 first line centers as a realistic model, and ideas about drafting 18 year old players and slotting them in as effective 2nd line centers the very next year all amount to the same thing - wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
I'm starting to think Arcobello might be a better 2C than Gagner.
I know it sounds a little crazy but he seems to have excellent chemistry with both Schultz (especially) and Eberle. He also seems to have better on-ice vision than Gagner. I'd be willing to at least try him out in the NHL.
So a smaller, older minor league player who has never played a minute of NHL hockey, is somehow a potential replacement for Gagner?

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12-17-2012, 07:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Kesler 49, Gagner 47, M Richards 44 (Cup Winner), Fisher (Nas) 51, Berglund/Arnott (StL) 38/34, Pho didn't have a 2nd liner with 40 points.
All those players are elite defensive players who face other teams top players and come out ahead. SS would get eaten alive if he got that assignment.

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12-17-2012, 07:24 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Have you ever even seen Gretzky play or are you just guessing? The guy got sprung for breakaways over and over and got caught by avg nhl defensemen. He was anything and everything but fast. What RNH, Gretzky and Kane have on Gagner is agility.
Kane is miles faster than SS.

Ive seen Gretzky play live a few times and hundreds of times on TV and taped.

People always look for something to pick out of great players game and criticize them for it.

A knock on SS since junior has been his speed. And I agree SS's agility is no where near the same level as any of the generational superstars that you compared him to.

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12-17-2012, 07:26 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
So a smaller, older minor league player who has never played a minute of NHL hockey, is somehow a potential replacement for Gagner?
Not necessarily, but for all we know, he could come in and do better than Gagner if ever given the chance. Doubtful I suppose, but I'd still be willing to give him a chance if an injury occurs to one of our centers.
It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that older guys come into the NHL for the first time and do well (P.A. Parenteau a prime example).

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12-17-2012, 07:28 PM
  #55
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And how many of these players are available? How will you get them? When they come to Edmonton will they be as good as they were elsewhere? Will they like Edmonton or will they stay for a few years and leave for warmer weather?
You are missing the point. If every playoff team in the WC has a #2C who dominates SS then where does that leave the Oilers?

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12-17-2012, 07:33 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Too much of an issue is being made of Gagner's size. Sakic, Gretzky and Yzerman were Gagner's size. RNH and P Kane are quite a bit smaller.

It's like people expect a 2nd line center to be laying the body on people but the truth is that big hitting centers are very rare. Bobby Holik is the only guy that pops to mind as having a rep for consistantly throwing hard hits, having success at both ends of the rink and a long, healthy career. Even Lindros, at 6'4 245 lbs, couldn't play that style and stay healthy. When you play in the middle and you're expected to carry the puck you can't make enemies or you eventually get caught.

Gagner was strong enough to play in the NHL at 18 and he's still going to get stronger, physically he's capable of being a good #2C. If the Oilers want size and strength the place for that is on the wing. If the Oilers could package a winger and some picks/prospects for Lucic I'd be all over it.
Ya, I would just like to know who every one has in mind as our perfect 2c. It is like every one is paiting a picture of some one and I have no idea who that is. Sam Gagner has stregths and weeknesses. Size isn't a stregth but oh well, not like it means he can't be a very good NHL player. If you just look at his stats, you think, hey there is a very promising young hockey player. Not sure why every one is down on the guy.

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12-17-2012, 07:39 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Not necessarily, but for all we know, he could come in and do better than Gagner if ever given the chance. Doubtful I suppose, but I'd still be willing to give him a chance if an injury occurs to one of our centers.
It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that older guys come into the NHL for the first time and do well (P.A. Parenteau a prime example).
It is unlikely.

But the point was more that he isn't even remotely an upgrade over Gagner even if he comes in and does well.

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12-17-2012, 07:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
Ya, I would just like to know who every one has in mind as our perfect 2c. It is like every one is paiting a picture of some one and I have no idea who that is. Sam Gagner has stregths and weeknesses. Size isn't a stregth but oh well, not like it means he can't be a very good NHL player. If you just look at his stats, you think, hey there is a very promising young hockey player. Not sure why every one is down on the guy.
It's actually really common with prospects that enter the league too early, and something that Edmonton fanbase is notorious for - prospects that enter the league too early gain unrealistic expectations, and fans get impatient and turn on them when the players fail to live up to the standards of progression expected of them in a timely manner.

Ultimately Gagner was rushed. Not because he wasn't ready, or will be a UFA sooner, but because all those trying development years he was destined to go through would have been better done out of sight, out of mind of NHL fans.

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12-17-2012, 07:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
It's actually really common with prospects that enter the league too early, and something that Edmonton fanbase is notorious for - prospects that enter the league too early gain unrealistic expectations, and fans get impatient and turn on them when the players fail to live up to the standards of progression expected of them in a timely manner.

Ultimately Gagner was rushed. Not because he wasn't ready, or will be a UFA sooner, but because all those trying development years he was destined to go through would have been better done out of sight, out of mind of NHL fans.
Couldn't agree more. I think MPS might suffer the same fate as well. I think he will have a good NHL career as well, but fans thought he was going to be a super star. Now are stuggling through his growing pains. Same with Gags. I am more than happy to have him as our 2nd C. I think he will mature into a fine NHL player.

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12-17-2012, 07:59 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
It is unlikely.

But the point was more that he isn't even remotely an upgrade over Gagner even if he comes in and does well.
Wtf how can you know for sure? Gagner isn't even that good.
I honestly think Arcobello has better hockey IQ. He's already developed a ton of chemistry with Schultz as well, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up some points with the Oilers.
My point was that it would be nice to at least give him a look in the Oilers' top six and see how well he does.

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12-17-2012, 08:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Wtf how can you know for sure? Gagner isn't even that good.
I honestly think Arcobello has better hockey IQ. He's already developed a ton of chemistry with Schultz as well, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up some points with the Oilers.
My point was that it would be nice to at least give him a look in the Oilers' top six and see how well he does.
Because replacing one small point producing forward that is ineffective(so far) defensively with a smaller point producing forward(a longshot) that would be just as ineffective defensively is not an upgrade.

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12-17-2012, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by OilFury View Post
Barkov? ^^


Horcoff checks?
How was this overlooked? I want proof that Horcoff checks.

This should override the current conversation in this thread.

Horcoff = poop.

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12-17-2012, 08:12 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
There's more to a player than points, if you had to win one game would you take him over any of those players with the possible exception of a well past his prime Arnott?
The premise of this thread isn't "Gagner is the best #2C in the world", it's "Gagner will cover the bet as a #2C".

Someone said that Gagner was an avg point producer at #2C, there's widespread belief that a good #2 c has to be putting up 65 points or something.

Fact is that Gagner has played almost exclusively with u-20 players his whole career and he's doing extremely well under the circumstances.

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12-17-2012, 08:12 PM
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I think they see Gagner for what he is after 5 full seasons of not hitting 20 goals or 50 points dispite (sic) playing top line minutes for a lot of the time with highly skilled players.
I'm going to go ahead and call bs on that.
For his first three seasons there were not even any "highly skilled players" on the roster except for Hemsky.

Unless of course you think guys like Potulny, O'Sullivan, Brule, Cogliano, Nilsson, Moreau, JFJ, Brodziak, Reddox, Stortini, Pouliot, Sestito, Reasoner, Thoreson, Sanderson and so on represent "skill".

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I'm starting to think Arcobello might be a better 2C than Gagner.
Just when I thought HFOil couldn't possibly get any dumber wrt Gagner ..... well done sir.

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12-17-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
It's actually really common with prospects that enter the league too early, and something that Edmonton fanbase is notorious for - prospects that enter the league too early gain unrealistic expectations, and fans get impatient and turn on them when the players fail to live up to the standards of progression expected of them in a timely manner.

Ultimately Gagner was rushed. Not because he wasn't ready, or will be a UFA sooner, but because all those trying development years he was destined to go through would have been better done out of sight, out of mind of NHL fans.
So you think he would have been better off with Rob Schremp and the Springfield Falcons?

I dont see how that would have made him bigger, stronger, or stronger on his skates. Fact is he hasnt improved much if at all over a period of five years. Not sure how being in junior and then the AHL would have addressed any of those issues.

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12-17-2012, 08:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ohheyhemsky View Post
How was this overlooked? I want proof that Horcoff checks.

This should override the current conversation in this thread.

Horcoff = poop.
he cashes cheques

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12-17-2012, 08:17 PM
  #67
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I'm going to go ahead and call bs on that.
For his first three seasons there were not even any "highly skilled players" on the roster except for Hemsky.

Unless of course you think guys like Potulny, O'Sullivan, Brule, Cogliano, Nilsson, Moreau, JFJ, Brodziak, Reddox, Stortini, Pouliot, Sestito, Reasoner, Thoreson, Sanderson and so on represent "skill".
I guess you could just add him to that pile of players you listed then

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12-17-2012, 08:19 PM
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All those players are elite defensive players who face other teams top players and come out ahead. SS would get eaten alive if he got that assignment.
Kesler would have gotten eaten alive at 22 with that assignment. He finished his 22 yr old season with 23 points in 82 games. What's your point?

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12-17-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
I guess you could just add him to that pile of players you listed then
Throw another shrimp on the barbie?

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12-17-2012, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
I think they see Gagner for what he is after 5 full seasons of not hitting 20 goals or 50 points dispite playing top line minutes for a lot of the time with highly skilled players. He also has only ever been a + player once and has never been good on faceoffs.

Like his dad said when he was drafted he aint a bunny but he should be a pretty fast turtle.
Someone already responded to this but I want you to go ahead and compile a list of these great players he played so many games with. Try and find someone who had played more than 82 career games when they were on his line or had more than 82 career points. FYI he played with guys like Andrew Cogliano in his rookie season, Robert Nilsson in his rookie season, MPS, etc, etc. For an 18, 19, 20 yr old developing center the Oil sure didn't throw him out there with people who were going to provide him with any leadership. Yes he did play with Eberle and Hall for a while, check his stats.

Not sure how or why he disappointed you so much, I think maybe your expectations are out of whack.

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12-17-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
I guess you could just add him to that pile of players you listed then
So you accept then that your comment about "highly skilled" first line players was totally off the wall right?

The fact that Gagner held his own as an eighteen, nineteen and twenty year old on the worst team in the league, under three different coaches doesn't mean anything right? Cause only guys like MPS get to use the "I'm too young", "I'm not used to the NHL game", "I never get any decent linemates" excuses.

Whatever man .... we'll see. You've made your stance abundantly clear on this player. If you turn out to be right, I'll be the first to point it out. But when Gagner is still playing in this league ten years from now, I hope you have the decency to admit you wouldn't know a talented hockey player from a figure skater.

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12-17-2012, 08:37 PM
  #72
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So you accept then that your comment about "highly skilled" first line players was totally off the wall right?

The fact that Gagner held his own as an eighteen, nineteen and twenty year old on the worst team in the league, under three different coaches doesn't mean anything right? Cause only guys like MPS get to use the "I'm too young", "I'm not used to the NHL game", "I never get any decent linemates" excuses.

Whatever man .... we'll see. You've made your stance abundantly clear on this player. If you turn out to be right, I'll be the first to point it out. But when Gagner is still playing in this league ten years from now, I hope you have the decency to admit you wouldn't know a talented hockey player from a figure skater.
Gagner didnt hold his own as 18, 19 year old, he got destroyed. Last season was the first one where he held his own, but most of that is because he had long stretches where he played with elite players.

Never said he wasnt a talented hockey player. He is a very poor mans version of our current #1C. Not a good fit for a #2C on the same team. probably will still be playing in what ever pro NA hockey league exists in 10 years. Good job of throwing MPS into the mix did you and your buddy DSF have a good chuckle about that? Ask him how Shiropov is doing for me.

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12-17-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
So you accept then that your comment about "highly skilled" first line players was totally off the wall right?

The fact that Gagner held his own as an eighteen, nineteen and twenty year old on the worst team in the league, under three different coaches doesn't mean anything right? Cause only guys like MPS get to use the "I'm too young", "I'm not used to the NHL game", "I never get any decent linemates" excuses.

Whatever man .... we'll see. You've made your stance abundantly clear on this player. If you turn out to be right, I'll be the first to point it out. But when Gagner is still playing in this league ten years from now, I hope you have the decency to admit you wouldn't know a talented hockey player from a figure skater.
I seem to remember him playing on the first line with Hemsky and Penner. Off the wall? Ya ok bud.

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12-17-2012, 08:38 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Have you ever even seen Gretzky play or are you just guessing? The guy got sprung for breakaways over and over and got caught by avg nhl defensemen. He was anything and everything but fast. What RNH, Gretzky and Kane have on Gagner is agility.
I watched virtually every home game Gretzky played in an Oiler jersey live and I completely disagree with your assessment. He seldom got caught. Gretzky was not the fastest skater of his generation but when needed he was significantly above average.

But even without being the fastest guy in the league he was still one of the best skaters I have ever seen. His agility and ability to change direction and pace was as good as any I have ever seen. So while you at least acknowledge this part I think the degree to which a guy like Gretzky exceeded Gagner as a skater makes any comparison pointless.

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12-17-2012, 08:41 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Kesler would have gotten eaten alive at 22 with that assignment. He finished his 22 yr old season with 23 points in 82 games. What's your point?
Yep Gagner>Kesler . Dear God...

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