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Old
12-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Bringing up Gretzky, Sakic, Yzermam et al is not really helping your point. No one would object to having any of those guys rather than Gagner.

I also believe that you misunderstand many peoples issues with Gagner. Most of us who feel he needs to be replaced see him as too one dimensional for the role he needs to play on this team. His game is based on offensive potential, driven by a fairly high hockey IQ. But right now he sits behind Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov and Schultz in terms of his place in the pecking order as far as offense goes. This is even without including Hemsky in the mix. So he needs to present a game that fits the players in front of him not the other way around. I don't think he does.
This is unfair.

Of any young player on the Oilers Gagner has been made to play in situations where few players would succeed. You're calling him "one dimenional" applies fairly to nearly every player on this club at this point or we wouldn't be one of the worst teams in history. Gagner has had to shoulder a lot more than the other stars you mention because he doesn't get ample time playing with other players that would complement his game. He ends up *sheltering two rookies like MPS and Omark most of a season(a brutal season) because Horcoff can't handle any challenges, so Gagner, a kid himself, gets stuck shouldering two players who two years later still wouldn't be good NHLers.

Plus I'm not sure how being behind guys that are bolded is such a completely bad thing. For the first time in as long as I can remember the Oilers could have two stacked lines. I know I'd like to see how that would work out. I think Gagner could be a part of that.

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12-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I seem to remember him playing on the first line with Hemsky and Penner. Off the wall? Ya ok bud.
Not the same Dustin Penner who was one of the final cuts from the Canadian Olympic team that year was it?

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12-17-2012, 08:47 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Someone already responded to this but I want you to go ahead and compile a list of these great players he played so many games with. Try and find someone who had played more than 82 career games when they were on his line or had more than 82 career points. FYI he played with guys like Andrew Cogliano in his rookie season, Robert Nilsson in his rookie season, MPS, etc, etc. For an 18, 19, 20 yr old developing center the Oil sure didn't throw him out there with people who were going to provide him with any leadership. Yes he did play with Eberle and Hall for a while, check his stats.

Not sure how or why he disappointed you so much, I think maybe your expectations are out of whack.
He didnt, but the lunatic fans around here who insist he never got to play with any one with any skill, and that he will somehow magically become a 80 point player in his 6th or 7th season do.

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12-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
You're putting Schultz ahead of Gagner and he hasn't played an nhl shift yet? There's a good chance that he never tops 49 points.
I put Yakupov ahead of him too and he has not played an NHL shift.

This issue I was talking about was their role on the team going forward. It would seem pretty clear that until he shows he cannot make the transition to the NHl that Schultz is being viewed as a key cog going forward. You can tell from his contract negotiations that this is not the case with Gagner. If he was viewed in the same light as the guys I mentioned he would not have been offered a one year deal.

If there is a season and Gagner takes his game to another level I will be happy to admit I sold him short. But at this point his place on the totem pole is definitely moving downward. I'll expand my previous list and say that at this point I think he is behind Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Schultz, Smid and Petry in terms of players who the team would see as more integral to their future.

If he is not viewed as part of the core, then the team is very unlikely to try and provide him with a situation that is suited to his game. At this point it is up to him to adjust his game to fit a role as a complementary player. Given his skill set and that of the players ahead of him on the organizational chart I don't think he will be here that long.

I actually like Gagner as a player more than most of the people who don't think he fits on this team. I like the fight he brings with him, but he still loses far to many battles. He clearly has excellent hockey sense and I think that given the right wingers he could be a very effective player. The problem is that this team has several players who at this point are also fairly one dimensional, but they are also better in that single dimension than Gagner is.

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12-17-2012, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
So you think he would have been better off with Rob Schremp and the Springfield Falcons?

I dont see how that would have made him bigger, stronger, or stronger on his skates. Fact is he hasnt improved much if at all over a period of five years. Not sure how being in junior and then the AHL would have addressed any of those issues.
I didn't say his development would be better off.

I said it would have been better off if it was done in a place where Oiler fans couldn't over-dramatize every little bump in the road.

Case in point - "hasn't improved at all in 5 years".

Considering he's improved his PPG every year on a team that has gone from poor offensively -> league worst -> poor.

He's improved his F/O ability considerably from when he started(41.8, 42, 47.4, 45.8, 47.6).

He's gone from worthless defensively to a plus player as well.

All signs he's improved as a player, and the type of progression you'd expect from any mid-range NHL prospect between the ages of 18 - 25. Yet apparently he's completely and utterly stagnant, and not worth keeping on the team because the Oilers have piles of 45 point centers in the organization just waiting for an opportunity.

Barring that, a Kesler/Malkin/Hanzel/Richards/Bolland/Carter/Getzlaf/Fisher/Berglund for PRV deal is just a phone call away! Only reason it hasn't happened is because Gagner on the roster blocks the Oilers from being able to consider making the deal

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12-17-2012, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
THe part that gets me the most is every one seems to be obbsessed with Gagners size. Like he would be the first NHL player that was small to have success. REally, as long as he works hard and plays smart he could be a great 2nd C. I don't care about his size. He still reminds me a lot of Marc Savard.
how long is it going to take for him to get there though. I agree he does have tools, a good base to work from, he has great character, is a down to earth guy who by all accounts is a very hard worker. I like Gagner. But it's been 5 years, and he's only moderately improved as a player, both offensively and defensively. Perhaps he hasn't even improved. The problem also isn't just his size, but his limitations in terms of speed. He's not overly fast and isn't as strong on his skates. Not a great shot. Good passer. You can tell overall he's just a very mediocre talent. The "problem" of his size is compounded by his average skating and poor balance. This all being said I also think he's been put in a very bad position by the organization, a position to fail so to speak. Given his limitations and upside, he was brought in rather quickly, has been given a barrage of different line mates, has been jerked around like no one's business.

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12-17-2012, 09:20 PM
  #82
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I think people who "poo poo" Gagner have to look at his career so far with a little perspective.

His rookie yearhe put up good points with Cogs and Nielsson

For his entire NHL career he's been on the Oilers. That would be from what, 2007 on. Pretty sucky club to be on in the formative years. Who was he gonna learn from, the all star Horcoff?

As far as I can tell, he's been nothing but positive and does not complain about any role he is put in. Every off season he seems to work on particular weaknesses to make them stronger.

Stands up for his teammates and throws the fists when it is appropriate.,,,even though he is not a "tough guy" and probably weighs less than George Laraque's sweater after a hockey game.

As others have mentioned, has played with mainly rookies and Under 20 kids his entire tenure here...a leader among the young guns.

I've never heard this dude say a negative thing since he's been in Edmonton, though there have been many times, if I were him, a little piping up in your face WTF am I doing here attitude would not be unreasonable for him.

What we have here is a diamond in the rough. If you don't want to allow a little patience for a 22 year old with leadership skills, hockey skills, and the wherewithall to work on his deficiencies...all without making a peep or complaint about the absolutely crappy situation he's been saddled with since starting here, have at er.

I like what Gags has brought to the team emotionally, spritually, and even physically with some of his scraps.

One of the most underrated players in Oiler history if I may go so far....which I will.

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12-17-2012, 09:26 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Yep Gagner>Kesler . Dear God...
Don't mistake your failure to comprehend the written word with my failure to accurately describe something that happened, plain as day.

You just compared Sam Gagner's 22 year old season to Kesler's seasons at 24 thru 28 and then you said ". Dear God...". Epic fail.

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12-17-2012, 09:29 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Wtf how can you know for sure? Gagner isn't even that good.
I honestly think Arcobello has better hockey IQ. He's already developed a ton of chemistry with Schultz as well, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up some points with the Oilers.
My point was that it would be nice to at least give him a look in the Oilers' top six and see how well he does.
Arcobello isn't an NHLer plain and simple and to suggest that he would be a better option than Gagner is pure fantasy on your part. The idea is to replace Gagner with a bigger, stronger 2 way player. Arcobello is smaller, weaker and is far from a 2 way player.

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12-17-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
how long is it going to take for him to get there though. I agree he does have tools, a good base to work from, he has great character, is a down to earth guy who by all accounts is a very hard worker. I like Gagner. But it's been 5 years, and he's only moderately improved as a player, both offensively and defensively. Perhaps he hasn't even improved. The problem also isn't just his size, but his limitations in terms of speed. He's not overly fast and isn't as strong on his skates. Not a great shot. Good passer. You can tell overall he's just a very mediocre talent. The "problem" of his size is compounded by his average skating and poor balance. This all being said I also think he's been put in a very bad position by the organization, a position to fail so to speak. Given his limitations and upside, he was brought in rather quickly, has been given a barrage of different line mates, has been jerked around like no one's business.
Well he is just 23 and where exactly does he need to get to? If he can put up 50-60 points and be a decent defensive player he will mature to a fine 2nd line C. I still think that is where he will get to despite his limitations. Every player has limitations.

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12-17-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
He didnt, but the lunatic fans around here who insist he never got to play with any one with any skill, and that he will somehow magically become a 80 point player in his 6th or 7th season do.
This thread isn't called "will Gagner become a bona fide 1st liner", not sure where that line in the sand came from. It's about him making the grade as a 2nd line center, that's it.

He's being comp'd as a 2nd year player vs some other 2nd line centers when they were 22. If some people want to interpret that as "Gagner's better than Ryan Kesler!" is that my fault?

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12-17-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
This thread isn't called "will Gagner become a bona fide 1st liner", not sure where that line in the sand came from. It's about him making the grade as a 2nd line center, that's it.

He's being comp'd as a 2nd year player vs some other 2nd line centers when they were 22. If some people want to interpret that as "Gagner's better than Ryan Kesler!" is that my fault?
He's being compared to players who are either faster or stronger or both.
The problem with Gagner is that he doesn't have any skills that stand out plus his skills are duplicated all throughout the lineup by players who are better at it so he becomes redundant.
The Oilers need balance in the top 6 so the redundancy needs to be cleared up at some point.
The Oilers need more players who are just as good away from the puck as they are with the puck and Gagner is the most likely to be dealt to make room for a guy like that unless you want to deal one of the big 4.

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12-17-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I put Yakupov ahead of him too and he has not played an NHL shift.

This issue I was talking about was their role on the team going forward. It would seem pretty clear that until he shows he cannot make the transition to the NHl that Schultz is being viewed as a key cog going forward. You can tell from his contract negotiations that this is not the case with Gagner. If he was viewed in the same light as the guys I mentioned he would not have been offered a one year deal.

If there is a season and Gagner takes his game to another level I will be happy to admit I sold him short. But at this point his place on the totem pole is definitely moving downward. I'll expand my previous list and say that at this point I think he is behind Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Schultz, Smid and Petry in terms of players who the team would see as more integral to their future.

If he is not viewed as part of the core, then the team is very unlikely to try and provide him with a situation that is suited to his game. At this point it is up to him to adjust his game to fit a role as a complementary player. Given his skill set and that of the players ahead of him on the organizational chart I don't think he will be here that long.

I actually like Gagner as a player more than most of the people who don't think he fits on this team. I like the fight he brings with him, but he still loses far to many battles. He clearly has excellent hockey sense and I think that given the right wingers he could be a very effective player. The problem is that this team has several players who at this point are also fairly one dimensional, but they are also better in that single dimension than Gagner is.
Yakupov is just a bit ahead of Schultz on the curve. Schultz right now is almost exactly the same age as Gagner was at the start of last season.

If you took a 22 year old SG and threw him on this OKC team with this year's version of Eberle, Hall, RNH he'd probably be lighting it up too. How many points did Gagner have in the nhl last year when he played with Hall and Eberle?

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12-17-2012, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
He's being compared to players who are either faster or stronger or both.
The problem with Gagner is that he doesn't have any skills that stand out plus his skills are duplicated all throughout the lineup by players who are better at it so he becomes redundant.
The Oilers need balance in the top 6 so the redundancy needs to be cleared up at some point.
The Oilers need more players who are just as good away from the puck as they are with the puck and Gagner is the most likely to be dealt to make room for a guy like that unless you want to deal one of the big 4.
He's not redundant, he's the only 2nd line center they have and 2nd line centers are crucial.

An example of redundant is Yakupov; an 18 yr old who's projected to be an elite 1st line rw on a team that already has an elite 1st line rw and a veteran 2nd line rw. There's an elite winger on lw as well.

Going fwd the Oilers should really move away from having a logjam of elite talent on the rw and acquire some assets that will elevate the level of play in some other spots where they are "less than elite".

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12-17-2012, 10:03 PM
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Not the same Dustin Penner who was one of the final cuts from the Canadian Olympic team that year was it?
Led the league in goals for a good spell too.

But Sammy never got to play with good players.

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12-17-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
He's not redundant, he's the only 2nd line center they have and 2nd line centers are crucial.

An example of redundant is Yakupov; an 18 yr old who's projected to be an elite 1st line rw on a team that already has an elite 1st line rw and a veteran 2nd line rw. There's an elite winger on lw as well.

Going fwd the Oilers should really move away from having a logjam of elite talent on the rw and acquire some assets that will elevate the level of play in some other spots where they are "less than elite".
The difference is that you're comparing somebody who has an elite skillset to soembody who has fairly average skills.
So are you saying that you would move Yakupov before you would move Gagner?

I wouldn't move Gagner until the Oilers have a viable replacement lined up whoever that may be. But what i do know is that a RNH-Gagner combo will likely always struggle against tough, rugged teams which the west has several of and when you have Hall, Eberle and Yakupov on the wings, the need for a 2 way presence at center becomes even greater.
Just look at all the top teams, they all have a strong 2 way presence at center.
I think that Gagner is a better fit on a team like Anaheim or St. Louis where he can be sheltered by a big 2 way center and tough, rugged wingers. He is just not a fit here long term IMO.

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12-17-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Yakupov is just a bit ahead of Schultz on the curve. Schultz right now is almost exactly the same age as Gagner was at the start of last season.

If you took a 22 year old SG and threw him on this OKC team with this year's version of Eberle, Hall, RNH he'd probably be lighting it up too. How many points did Gagner have in the nhl last year when he played with Hall and Eberle?
Schultz is a defenseman! By the argument you seem to be implying one would conclude that if Schultz had 45 points as a rookie in the NHL then that would somehow put him on the same level as Gagner. What he has done so far in the AHL is stunning. But more than that, his projected role on the Oilers is as the #1 option on the point on the the pp. He has almost no serious competition for this role on the big team right now. His game may not translate to the NHL but you can bet he will be given every opportunity to show what he has.

Gagner is at best the #5 forward in terms of his place on the depth chart. If the Oilers could keep only one of Gagner or Schultz right nw do you really think the decision would be tough?

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12-17-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Gagner didnt hold his own as 18, 19 year old, he got destroyed.
Gagner had 33 points in the last 34 games of his 18 yr old season playing with 2 other rookies. You call that destroyed?

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12-17-2012, 10:09 PM
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I didn't say his development would be better off.

I said it would have been better off if it was done in a place where Oiler fans couldn't over-dramatize every little bump in the road.

Case in point - "hasn't improved at all in 5 years".

Considering he's improved his PPG every year on a team that has gone from poor offensively -> league worst -> poor.

He's improved his F/O ability considerably from when he started(41.8, 42, 47.4, 45.8, 47.6).

He's gone from worthless defensively to a plus player as well.

All signs he's improved as a player, and the type of progression you'd expect from any mid-range NHL prospect between the ages of 18 - 25. Yet apparently he's completely and utterly stagnant, and not worth keeping on the team because the Oilers have piles of 45 point centers in the organization just waiting for an opportunity.

Barring that, a Kesler/Malkin/Hanzel/Richards/Bolland/Carter/Getzlaf/Fisher/Berglund for PRV deal is just a phone call away! Only reason it hasn't happened is because Gagner on the roster blocks the Oilers from being able to consider making the deal
He has never surpassed his rookie point totals. Playing with scrubs like Cogliano and Nilsson.

If you want to gussy that up with the same ppg nonsense that was used for years to prop up Hemsky into something other than he was, then go ahead. Just dont expect others to buy it.

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12-17-2012, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Gagner had 33 points in the last 34 games of his 18 yr old season playing with 2 other rookies. You call that destroyed?
I guess if the season was 34 games instead of 82 you might have something there.

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12-17-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
He has never surpassed his rookie point totals. Playing with scrubs like Cogliano and Nilsson.

If you want to gussy that up with the same ppg nonsense that was used for years to prop up Hemsky into something other than he was, then go ahead. Just dont expect others to buy it.
You're not putting emphasis on the right points of the OP's post. Sure, he brought up PPG which is taken with a gallon of salt on these boards, but you're ignoring other statistics and clear evidence (by the basis of watching Gagner play without Hate-glasses on) that has shown he is on a progressive trajectory headed upwards. His development, at the meager age of 23 is going in the right direction.

I'm here mainly as an observer, as I've always been on the fence with Gagner (albeit never being a fan of trading him away at his age, and his immediate development), so I'd just like to hear/read what you have against that point that was brought up?

-- The point being his current development trajectory.

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12-17-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
He has never surpassed his rookie point totals. Playing with scrubs like Cogliano and Nilsson.

If you want to gussy that up with the same ppg nonsense that was used for years to prop up Hemsky into something other than he was, then go ahead. Just dont expect others to buy it.
And don't expect others to buy your situational use of the idea that the final point tally of a player(irregardless of team changes, games played, and effectiveness) is the sole measure a player is judged by - especially when it comes to development and progress.

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12-17-2012, 10:24 PM
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Schultz is a defenseman! By the argument you seem to be implying one would conclude that if Schultz had 45 points as a rookie in the NHL then that would somehow put him on the same level as Gagner. What he has done so far in the AHL is stunning. But more than that, his projected role on the Oilers is as the #1 option on the point on the the pp. He has almost no serious competition for this role on the big team right now. His game may not translate to the NHL but you can bet he will be given every opportunity to show what he has.

Gagner is at best the #5 forward in terms of his place on the depth chart. If the Oilers could keep only one of Gagner or Schultz right nw do you really think the decision would be tough?
Oh for crying out loud. Gagner is #5 forward at age 22 on a club with 3 #1 draftpicks in the lineup and a ringer forward pick. Gawd, punt the kid, he's awful,

Seriously why would you even make that point?

There must be a pavlovian bell that sounds when Gagner is mentioned on this board and all the usual critics pop out of the woodwork.

Depth is not a bad thing to have. We've seen that often enough when we have injuries and Gagner can step into any configuration without looking out of place.

Its amazing how many fans consider Gagner redundant. I'd imagine the actual players on the club that play with him don't.

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12-17-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Schultz is a defenseman! By the argument you seem to be applying one would conclude that if Schltz had 45 points as a rookie in the NHL then that would somehow put him on the same level as Gagner. What he has done so far in the AHL is stunning. But more than that, his projected role on the Oilers is as the #1 option on the point on the the pp. He has almost no serious competition for this role on the big team right now. His game may not translate to the NHL but you can bet he will be given every opportunity to show what he has.

Gagner is at best the #5 forward in terms of his place on the depth chart. If the Oilers could keep only one of Gagner or Schultz right nw do you really think the decision would be tough?
What Schultz has done this season is stunning. Never said it wasn't. But put it into perspective - he is playing with some elite NHL'ers down in the AHL. He didn't do it with Arcobello et all last season.

He's got the #1 point position and he beat out whom? Jeff Petry and Ryan Whitney fresh off a 20 point season. Compelling stuff.

You made some good points about Schultz but you're still just guessing on the main point we're discussing here... you said that Schultz is better offensively and that's still just wrong at this point. Gagner has proven nhl offense, he got 33 points in 34 games at the end of his rookie season playing with two other rookies. That's more stunning than Schultz's 27 game run in the AHL with 3 elite nhl'ers.

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12-17-2012, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I guess if the season was 34 games instead of 82 you might have something there.
OK, 49 points as a rookie in 82 games played almost exclusively with 2 other rookies on his line is "destroyed". You got me there IATL.

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