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Hall for Seguin

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:19 PM
  #176
Aceonfire
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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
While I don't disagree with you. There's arguments to be had either way in terms of Hall was handed massive minutes in a weak division and was asked to do nothing but score while Seguin came into the league in a much more competitive division and was forced to work his way up a very competitive roster while learning the defensive side of the game first under a defense first coach.

These arguments do nothing but dumb down (not directing this at you) the bottom line that both these players are well on their ways to being extremely good (borderline elite) NHLers.
Weak division? Vancouver?... Boston topped a division this year that had 2/5 worst teams in the league.

Hall was only asked to score? Hall was essentially the Captain of the team. Horcoff had a midlife crisis and was a shell of what he used to be. The difference between Hall being on the ice and off is massive.

Seguin came into a team stacked with talent and leadership. He plays on a line with one of the best two-way forwards in the NHL. Who has Hall had to mentor him?

And climb a competitive roster? Was it that hard to beat out often injured Horton or Rich Peverley for a spot on the top line?

Hall came into the league with way more expectations.

Both of these players will become great NHLers, but you are massively underrating Hall....

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Old
12-15-2012, 04:47 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Weak division? Vancouver?... Boston topped a division this year that had 2/5 worst teams in the league.

Hall was only asked to score? Hall was essentially the Captain of the team. Horcoff had a midlife crisis and was a shell of what he used to be. The difference between Hall being on the ice and off is massive.

Seguin came into a team stacked with talent and leadership. He plays on a line with one of the best two-way forwards in the NHL. Who has Hall had to mentor him?

And climb a competitive roster? Was it that hard to beat out often injured Horton or Rich Peverley for a spot on the top line?

Hall came into the league with way more expectations.

Both of these players will become great NHLers, but you are massively underrating Hall....
I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm trying to point out how both arguments are flawed.... For any argument someone can pose that Seguin is only as good as he is because he's on a better team, someone can post an argument of how Hall was handed minutes rather than earning them on the weakest team in the league. These arguments are both factual but are misleading and do nothing but dumb down the actual debate and distort the actual stats that both these players who have had two completely different learning curves in two completely different atmosphere's have shown to have very similar positive grown and very similar numbers while both having to have faced some form of adversity.

What I was getting at is that when you leave those arguments that really can't be quantified aside and just watch these two players it's clear they're on very similar if not the exact same level. It comes down to personal preference with what kind of player you prefer: A powerful north-south leader with grit and a rifle of a shot OR: A smooth east-west high IQ player who can beat you in numerous ways.

I hope that explains how I view this debate better.

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Old
12-15-2012, 05:09 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm trying to point out how both arguments are flawed.... For any argument someone can pose that Seguin is only as good as he is because he's on a better team, someone can post an argument of how Hall was handed minutes rather than earning them on the weakest team in the league. These arguments are both factual but are misleading and do nothing but dumb down the actual debate and distort the actual stats that both these players who have had two completely different learning curves in two completely different atmosphere's have shown to have very similar positive grown and very similar numbers while both having to have faced some form of adversity.

What I was getting at is that when you leave those arguments that really can't be quantified aside and just watch these two players it's clear they're on very similar if not the exact same level. It comes down to personal preference with what kind of player you prefer: A powerful north-south leader with grit and a rifle of a shot OR: A smooth east-west high IQ player who can beat you in numerous ways.

I hope that explains how I view this debate better.
^dude, nobody is saying Seguin is only good because of the good team he plays for....Oiler fans know he's good, and apparently our head scout wanted to take Seguin but was overruled. what i see happening a lot on these boards is as players play for a few years, they may develop warts...in this case it's Hall's injuries and perceived reckless play...then posters will harp on only the flaws and forget the good in order to prove their point. Hall's 27 goals in only 61 games was outstanding for a 2nd year player, but he MUST start playing full seasons to get respect.

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Old
12-15-2012, 05:15 PM
  #179
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I personally don't do it due to Hall's injury history. Obviously, both are studs, but I personally prefer Seguin

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12-15-2012, 05:23 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Dellstrom View Post
Give him a chance first... It's not as if he's had a good support cast. There's no doubting Hall is a better leader.

But, even if Seguin has Hall's leadership, he'd still be ages behind Chara and Bergeron, who will be our captains for the next decade+. Plus, their value is close enough if not even.

Both players are more suited for their current teams.
You're right, Hall hasn't been given to oppertunity to prove whether or not he's a winner, doesn't mean that he gets that title anyways. Both players values are about equal and I agree that both are suited for their respective teams.

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12-15-2012, 05:47 PM
  #181
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Would either team do it?

Edmonton would get their dynamic 1-2 punch at center while still being able to keep a star winger on each line, with a lot of solid winger prospects (MPS, Hamilton, Pitlick) or FA options to fill the other void. With RNH-Eberle and Seguin-Yakupov all you really need on the other side is a 20-20 winger than can skate and hit well like Kulemin or Brouwer and you get an excellent line.

Boston is using Seguin at wing anyway, and Hall seems like he brings more to the table as a winger.

Each team may have been better off keeping their players originally but now the circumstances are different (Edmonton got Yakupov, Boston has a ton of centers and converted Seguin to wing).
seguin was rated #1 that year for a reason.... he is also way less recklass... not to take away from hall but as a bruins fan i would be sad to see this trade made. seguin plays center... he is fast and his shot is amazing...

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12-15-2012, 05:52 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
seguin was rated #1 that year for a reason.... he is also way less recklass... not to take away from hall but as a bruins fan i would be sad to see this trade made. seguin plays center... he is fast and his shot is amazing...
^actually, Hall was rated #1 that year by most experts. link? maybe one of our more adept posters has one?

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12-15-2012, 05:54 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
seguin was rated #1 that year for a reason.... he is also way less recklass... not to take away from hall but as a bruins fan i would be sad to see this trade made. seguin plays center... he is fast and his shot is amazing...
He's been primarily a winger thus far in his NHL career.

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Old
12-15-2012, 05:56 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
^dude, nobody is saying Seguin is only good because of the good team he plays for....Oiler fans know he's good, and apparently our head scout wanted to take Seguin but was overruled. what i see happening a lot on these boards is as players play for a few years, they may develop warts...in this case it's Hall's injuries and perceived reckless play...then posters will harp on only the flaws and forget the good in order to prove their point. Hall's 27 goals in only 61 games was outstanding for a 2nd year player, but he MUST start playing full seasons to get respect.
First I've ever heard of this. Got a link? I remember reading Stu was higher on Seguin until Hall took that crushing Hamonic hit in the Memorial Cup then he came back and got a goal. That's what pushed Stu to pick Hall.

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Old
12-15-2012, 06:17 PM
  #185
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First I've ever heard of this. Got a link? I remember reading Stu was higher on Seguin until Hall took that crushing Hamonic hit in the Memorial Cup then he came back and got a goal. That's what pushed Stu to pick Hall.
You won't find a link because it is not true.

He clearly said he started the year with Hall at #1, then flipped to Seguin in the middle, and then finished wanting Hall.

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12-16-2012, 01:31 AM
  #186
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Both players bring different items to the table and it is impossible to say who is better. Hall can be a game changer. He can be the guy who steps on the ice in crucial points of the game and is the difference between winning and losing. However he can be streaky.

Seguin on the other hand is incredibly dependable. He comes in each game and works his butt off rarely making any mistakes. He is the type of player you want on the ice in clutch moments to counter a guy like Hall. He will be in the perfect position as he reads the play so well. But he is not necessarily the guy who thirsts for the puck with seconds on te clock.

Both players are very valuable and impossible to overvalue. Both teams would benefit from gaining each one of these but would also lose a key aspect.

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12-16-2012, 02:02 AM
  #187
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The only way i can see a trade like this happening is if both players have a couple of dissapointing seasons in which case a change of scenery wuld be good.

But for now, theres no reason to make this deal.

Also as a habs fan i think id prefer seguin over hall

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12-16-2012, 02:05 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
Both players bring different items to the table and it is impossible to say who is better. Hall can be a game changer. He can be the guy who steps on the ice in crucial points of the game and is the difference between winning and losing. However he can be streaky.

Seguin on the other hand is incredibly dependable.
He comes in each game and works his butt off rarely making any mistakes. He is the type of player you want on the ice in clutch moments to counter a guy like Hall. He will be in the perfect position as he reads the play so well. But he is not necessarily the guy who thirsts for the puck with seconds on te clock.

Both players are very valuable and impossible to overvalue. Both teams would benefit from gaining each one of these but would also lose a key aspect.
You got that backwards actually. It may change, but at this point, Hall has been much more consistent and brings everything night in and night out. Seguin was extremely streaky last season

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12-16-2012, 02:24 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm trying to point out how both arguments are flawed.... For any argument someone can pose that Seguin is only as good as he is because he's on a better team, someone can post an argument of how Hall was handed minutes rather than earning them on the weakest team in the league. These arguments are both factual but are misleading and do nothing but dumb down the actual debate and distort the actual stats that both these players who have had two completely different learning curves in two completely different atmosphere's have shown to have very similar positive grown and very similar numbers while both having to have faced some form of adversity.

What I was getting at is that when you leave those arguments that really can't be quantified aside and just watch these two players it's clear they're on very similar if not the exact same level. It comes down to personal preference with what kind of player you prefer: A powerful north-south leader with grit and a rifle of a shot OR: A smooth east-west high IQ player who can beat you in numerous ways.

I hope that explains how I view this debate better.
I see what you are saying. And yes, they can't and shouldn't be compared anyways. Both are expected to be completely different.

If anyone should be upset about Hall & Seguin, it should be Leaf fans lol.

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12-16-2012, 01:24 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
What I was getting at is that when you leave those arguments that really can't be quantified aside and just watch these two players it's clear they're on very similar if not the exact same level. It comes down to personal preference with what kind of player you prefer: A powerful north-south leader with grit and a rifle of a shot OR: A smooth east-west high IQ player who can beat you in numerous ways.

I hope that explains how I view this debate better.
Great post. As an Oiler fan I definitely agree

I don't get how people are saying Seguin AINEC. It's one of the closest player comparisons I've ever seen 2 years out

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12-17-2012, 09:36 AM
  #191
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This debate is silly.

Who's tougher, Superman or Batman?? WHO cares, theyre both great! The Bruins & the Oilers fans are both happy to have one of the two.

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12-17-2012, 01:16 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
This debate is silly.

Who's tougher, Superman or Batman?? WHO cares, theyre both great! The Bruins & the Oilers fans are both happy to have one of the two.
Don't be silly, superman is "tougher" as he is an alien from another world, where Batman is an everyday dude just with lots of gadgets.

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12-17-2012, 01:48 PM
  #193
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This is such a false statement. He's never, in his 2 years come close to averaging a pt/gm. This comment is almost as comical as saying that Hall will always be injury prone. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I'm also beginning to question Oilerfan11's identity. I honestly think he's a closet Nucks fan. He never misses an opportunity to knock the Oilers.
Let start of by saying i am an Oiler fan . Oilerfan11 makes some purposes that seem to strip the Oilers of talent , but at the same time they make us a lot harder to play against .
Injured prone ? No he not , maybe accident prone would be a better way of describing Hall . I never had an Injury in my life . Until i was 26 . I got a steel door in the head at work . Had a late bleed inside my head , started taking seizures . Could not work and was told i would never work . I went to Ontario and seen a doctor there who got me on the right medication . I work myself back into shape so i could work . Driving home from work i stop at a set of lights and someone ran in the back of me . A hit and run . Not injury prone just unlucky or accident prone . Now i cannot work again , i will work my way back into the work force . I am getting older and it harder to come back from . If Hall continues to get hurt as he ages it will become harder and harder to come back from .

So about the long story about me my point was some people have bad luck with accidents , so i can understand the concerns about Hall . Also Seguin being a center has more value then a winger of the same skill . If both were in the draft and the Oilers could pick either one right now i would take Seguin ,but see how Hall makes our team better and he has some grit i would not trade him for Seguin . Hope i made some sense

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12-17-2012, 01:54 PM
  #194
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Don't be silly, superman is "tougher" as he is an alien from another world, where Batman is an everyday dude just with lots of gadgets.

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12-17-2012, 02:46 PM
  #195
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could that not be because the Oilers and Bruins have better, established leaders (horcoff, Smyth, Bergeron, Chara ect) than the Avalanche?
Ya it's pretty much the same argument as "Seguin has a ring!"

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12-17-2012, 10:40 PM
  #196
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Hall has way more potential. He has some of the most raw talent in the league. In saying that he lacks the innate hockey sense seguin has and I doubt he'll ever realize his full potential. This is a hard debate because seguin is likely to be the better player but halls ceiling is much higher. For that reason I think both teams pass

How can you say that Hall has more potential then a kid who scores 29 goals,has a stanley cup already and had one of the best single playoff games in the past 10 years..Both teams say no but to say Halls Ceiling is higher is the least intelligent comment made in this thread..Both are fantastic players theres a reason before the draft no one could decide between the two in the media hell even oilers fans...Dont be a homer and make up facts they are both good hockey players

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12-17-2012, 10:42 PM
  #197
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^actually, Hall was rated #1 that year by most experts. link? maybe one of our more adept posters has one?
Not true that year Seguin was the mvp of the Ohl and central scoutings number one prospect

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12-17-2012, 10:58 PM
  #198
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How can you say that Hall has more potential then a kid who scores 29 goals,has a stanley cup already and had one of the best single playoff games in the past 10 years..Both teams say no but to say Halls Ceiling is higher is the least intelligent comment made in this thread..Both are fantastic players theres a reason before the draft no one could decide between the two in the media hell even oilers fans...Dont be a homer and make up facts they are both good hockey players
Oooo, big whoop. Gagner had one of the best single-game performances in NHL history last year... What you gonna say bout that?

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12-17-2012, 11:10 PM
  #199
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Oooo, big whoop. Gagner had one of the best single-game performances in NHL history last year... What you gonna say bout that?
He said playoff

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12-18-2012, 12:14 AM
  #200
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He said playoff
i think you're missing the point. He had one good game...so did Gagner.

Also, i would say that Seguin, overall, was somewhat underwhelming in last years playoffs. Being a fan of his game, I expected more from him last year in the playoffs. Needless to say, we're talking about a 2nd year player. Perhaps my expectations should not have been so high. I think it's a testiment to just how highly I think of Seguin.

They're both fantastic players. As an Oiler fan watching more than 80% of the Oiler games, I have to tell you that he just took over, and as a fan, you could see that he has the rare ability to carry the team for many years to come. I guess i cannot ask more from a 2nd year player that was on pace to score more than 35 goals.

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