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KHL (Kontinental Hockey League) 2012-2013 season part II

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Old
12-18-2012, 01:22 AM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Slovan players have been commenting negatively about food ("too bland", like Lupul said) and accommodation ("beds too narrow") in some KHL venues as well, especially players with overseas experience. Some said, "Visiting some Russian cities is like going back to the 1970s."
To comment negatively about food is just stupid. I don't like the food in a lot of countries of this world(Slovakia isn't on my favorites list for example. A great country nonetheless I always like to go to.), but what the puck does it have to do with my work? It's not like he was sent to the Moon, you need different food, you get it. And btw, no offence NA ppl, but visiting some north amercan places isn't a ride to the future either. But once again what does it have to do with my work? If I need to go there, I go.

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12-18-2012, 01:59 AM
  #552
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That has bothered me for a while as well. Quiet alot actually. In an attempt to find out why, I did some research. It turns out that the reasons may be commercial.

Ak-Bars has by far the most expensive tickets in Russia. The average of each ticket is 616.7 R for every game. Including lesser opponents

For comparison Dynamo like many other teams has ticket prices that vary from categort to category(there are 4, tickets against elite opponents like SKA are more expensive) has an average of 537.5R for the top category opponents and just 287.5R for category 4, making the average price 412.5R for their home arena, while an average of 530.5R for Megasport arena, by the same averaging method.

Lokomotiv has an average ticket price of 580R at most

But the contrast gets even more sharp as we dwell into Ak-Bars' own conference:

Salavat has an average price of 550R

And the most shocking is Metallurg M, with category 1 tickets at an average of 400R and just 214R for category 4 making the average just 307R!!!! Half of Ak-Bars

What this means is that Ak-Bars with half the viewers of teams like Metallurg make just as much money.
4000 fans X 616.7 = 2,466,800 For Ak-Bars
6000 fans X 412.5 = 2,475,000 For Dynamo
8000 fans X 306.0 = 2,448,000 For Metallurg

go figure, and it gets alot worse for teams that are in the Eastern conference.

I know that generally the KHL does not try to become profitable from in-house attendance. At the same time, why does Ak-Bars maintain such high prices? Even by western standards 616.7 Rubles is 15.12 Euro so among Bratislava prices before the black market onslaught.

I would imagine that if Ak-Bars offered Metallurg prices their arena would be filled.

Does anybody have other insight?


sources:
http://www.ak-bars.ru/tickets/
http://www.dynamo.ru/tickets/
http://www.hclokomotiv.ru/tickets/
http://www.hcsalavat.ru/?md=part&showpart=17
http://www.metallurg.ru/site/local/tickets/
Sorry, but your research for Kazan is quite inacurate.

1. Only the smallest part of the tickets is above your calculated average price. Maybe 200 seats in the 2 best sectors.

2. You probably mixed up playoff ticket prices with the regular season ones. The most expensive seats(outside the VIP booths) are 800 RUB. (Those I normally get as at least for me it's not expensive at all. I can't go to a whole lot of games due to work though.)

3. Most tickets are from 200 RUB(quite popular) to 500 RUB. An average price would be somewhere around 350-400 RUB.

4. There is a raise for games against Ufa(rivalry), MMg, Avangard, Lokomotiv, SKA, Dynamo Moscow.

5. As I said playoff prices are a different story. Still the KHL finals would be 1200 RUB in the best sector(+possible raise if AkBars would face one of the opponents mentioned above from the west)

6. Kazan is one of the wealthier cities in Russia. People earn good money. The ticket prices are not really a problem. Whereever you'd go out in Kazan you'd 'get rid' of by far more money compared to a hockey game.

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12-18-2012, 02:15 AM
  #553
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Why do Ak Bars Kazaň have the worst KHL attendance (even worse than Lev Prague), percentage-wise, when it's an elite KHL team?
The real problem in Kazan is transportation. It's a tough quest to get to the game in time. A lot of people just prefer watching the game at a bar or at home in that situation. The die hard fans will still go of course, but the casual fan is hard to lure. Prices aren't a problem. Just drove with a taxi driver recently who turned out to be a hockey fan. He's had a season ticket every year before this season. He said he just can't go to the games due to family reasons this year. You can get a season ticket for 6000 RUB. that would be 5,56 Euro per reg. season game. And AkBars is like always in the playoffs. That's very much affordable.

Minor factors are of course the variety of entertainment offers in Kazan and the call it a "negative effect of success". AkBars always gets to the playoffs. Ppl get used to it and really start watching when the playoffs begin.

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12-18-2012, 02:26 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
6. Kazan is one of the wealthier cities in Russia. People earn good money. The ticket prices are not really a problem. Whereever you'd go out in Kazan you'd 'get rid' of by far more money compared to a hockey game.
What are average salaries like in Russia?

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12-18-2012, 03:11 AM
  #555
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What are average salaries like in Russia?
It's really tricky in Russia. Just by that one number you couldn't tell anything.

Reasons:

1. There is a drastical difference between regions in Russia. The problem is it's not only in earnings but also in prices. There are places where you can have a nice living with 20000RUB/month and there are ones where you'd be something close to a beggar with this.

2. Known averages are based on official data. A lot of companies and a lot of ppl are still working "under the radar" tax-wise. Official salaries are not exactly what the ppl really get.(Just to give you an example to understand how much of a difference that makes. Smb. is officially earning 7500 RUB(minimum per law) in real life however much closer to 80000+bonuses. Must sound crazy to smb. outside but that's still the reality I see every day) That's a legacy of the 90's transition period when nobody really cared about laws. someday it will be over, but right now you hardly can tell anything knowing the official numbers in Russia.


That said, the official average in Russia is somewhere about 20000 RUB/month. In Kazan it's 25000 RUB/month. And still in the bigger circle of family and friends nobody I know is under 50K/month. And it's a wide range of professions I'm talking about too. Out of same curiosity I actually asked a friend recently what I'd get at his company just to rate how a random guy would do in the free market. I was offered 60K right away and a raise to 80K in 3 months. so it's really hard to tell. Of course there are jobs like at the grocery store for 10000RUB/month. And then there is Moscow whre you'd barely pay the rent for some rat hole with 20K/month. And Moscow is not the most expensive place in Russia.

P.S. Nice avatar

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12-18-2012, 03:13 AM
  #556
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Komatsu - new KHL partner

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12-18-2012, 04:05 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Sorry, but your research for Kazan is quite inacurate.

1. Only the smallest part of the tickets is above your calculated average price. Maybe 200 seats in the 2 best sectors.

2. You probably mixed up playoff ticket prices with the regular season ones. The most expensive seats(outside the VIP booths) are 800 RUB. (Those I normally get as at least for me it's not expensive at all. I can't go to a whole lot of games due to work though.)

3. Most tickets are from 200 RUB(quite popular) to 500 RUB. An average price would be somewhere around 350-400 RUB.

4. There is a raise for games against Ufa(rivalry), MMg, Avangard, Lokomotiv, SKA, Dynamo Moscow.

5. As I said playoff prices are a different story. Still the KHL finals would be 1200 RUB in the best sector(+possible raise if AkBars would face one of the opponents mentioned above from the west)

6. Kazan is one of the wealthier cities in Russia. People earn good money. The ticket prices are not really a problem. Whereever you'd go out in Kazan you'd 'get rid' of by far more money compared to a hockey game.
1. I realize this. But that would also be the case with the other teams. And I calculated them in the exact same way so the numbers, although as you pointed out, may not be the true average, can be used for comparative purposes.

2. No I made no mistakes with the play-off prices

My post was not a definitive reason for why I thought Ak-Bars lacked in attendance, although I do believe that to be a contributing factor along with bad marketing, etc. Omsk, for example has an arena that is also far and their team is also always in the playoffs. Yet they have no problem filling arena while Kazan does.

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12-18-2012, 04:07 AM
  #558
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It's really tricky in Russia. Just by that one number you couldn't tell anything.
So true.

I was actually very surprised when I went to Ulyanovsk (not a very big town near Samara) that lots and lots of people there earn over 30k rubles per month. From a Latvian perspective those are great salaries.

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12-18-2012, 04:17 AM
  #559
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It's really tricky in Russia. Just by that one number you couldn't tell anything.

And Moscow is not the most expensive place in Russia.
Really? I thought Moscow is one of the expensive city in the world..

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12-18-2012, 04:54 AM
  #560
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Really? I thought Moscow is one of the expensive city in the world..
It is, but there are some regions in Russia where the GDP/capita is higher than in Moscow (for example Tyumen and Khanty Mansyisk). In these regions the prices are also higher than in Moscow. Prices always go up when the purchasing power goes up.

I would say that Russia is right now a cross between a first world and a second world country. For example the Moscow region is like a small first world country where the infrastructure and economy are at the first world levels. Same for St.Petersburg and regions such as Tatarstan, Tyumen, Khanty Mansyisk and maybe Bashkortostan. Also many individual cities like Sochi, Krasnodar, Yekaterinburg, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Yaroslavl, Krasnoyarsk and Chelyabinsk are quite developed.

Then you have cities or regions such as Smolensk, Novgorod (not Nizhny Novgorod!) or the Russian Karelia that are clearly second world class. All of these are located in the western Russia which is surprisingly less developed than the populated parts of Siberia and Urals.

Then you have the North Caucasus hellholes such as Dagestan and Ingushetia which could be more like third world than second world. These Muslim republics are riddled with poverty, corruption and islamic extremism.

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12-18-2012, 04:57 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
You can get a season ticket for 6000 RUB. that would be 5,56 Euro per reg. season game. And AkBars is like always in the playoffs. That's very much affordable.
Ak Bars season tickets are good for play-offs, too? Not here at Slovan... The season tickets are ony valid for the 26 regular-season games, and they typically cost between 200 and 300 (that's between 7.69 and 11.53 per game). Half the arena are season-ticket holders, but there is fear that: a) play-off tickets (if Slovan gets there) will be a lot more expensive; b) season ticket prices will be raised much higher next year.

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12-18-2012, 06:13 AM
  #562
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It is, but there are some regions in Russia where the GDP/capita is higher than in Moscow (for example Tyumen and Khanty Mansyisk). In these regions the prices are also higher than in Moscow. Prices always go up when the purchasing power goes up.

I would say that Russia is right now a cross between a first world and a second world country. For example the Moscow region is like a small first world country where the infrastructure and economy are at the first world levels. Same for St.Petersburg and regions such as Tatarstan, Tyumen, Khanty Mansyisk and maybe Bashkortostan. Also many individual cities like Sochi, Krasnodar, Yekaterinburg, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Yaroslavl, Krasnoyarsk and Chelyabinsk are quite developed.

Then you have cities or regions such as Smolensk, Novgorod (not Nizhny Novgorod!) or the Russian Karelia that are clearly second world class. All of these are located in the western Russia which is surprisingly less developed than the populated parts of Siberia and Urals.

Then you have the North Caucasus hellholes such as Dagestan and Ingushetia which could be more like third world than second world. These Muslim republics are riddled with poverty, corruption and islamic extremism.
Good summary, I have been working in Russia for six years. It has been quite interesting watching the rapid development of Russia (It will continue for years to come aswell, unless something idiotic occurs such as Nemtsov or Navalny getting support). Funnily enough Grozny is going through an enormous boom, turning into a mini Dubai.

Being an expat in Russia is very rewarding financially, 43% of expats in Russia earn more than US$200,000 per year (The highest in the world).
http://www.hsbc.com.au/1/PA_ES_Conte...009/090713.pdf

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12-18-2012, 06:26 AM
  #563
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1. I realize this. But that would also be the case with the other teams. And I calculated them in the exact same way so the numbers, although as you pointed out, may not be the true average, can be used for comparative purposes.

2. No I made no mistakes with the play-off prices

My post was not a definitive reason for why I thought Ak-Bars lacked in attendance, although I do believe that to be a contributing factor along with bad marketing, etc. Omsk, for example has an arena that is also far and their team is also always in the playoffs. Yet they have no problem filling arena while Kazan does.
1. They are in the playoffs but they haven't won recently. It's actually feeding the intrest.

2. The arena being "far" isn't the point and isn't the case. It's in the middle of the city and that's the trouble. You jsut can't reach it on gameday by any kind of transportation public or personal due to heavy traffic. If the arena would be on the outskirts, even far out it would solve the problem actually. Spending 2 hours in a traffic jam is what you expect if you go to the arena. Taking into account most ppl work till 6pm and games start on 7pm or 7:30pm you can't expect ppl to come to every game. The only subway station isn't really close to the arena thus you wouldn't expect ppl taking a half an hour walk either. The weather isn't really pleasant through the most of the hockey season. the only solution would be building a subway station close to the arena.

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12-18-2012, 06:34 AM
  #564
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Good summary, I have been working in Russia for six years. It has been quite interesting watching the rapid development of Russia
Yes, the last 13-15 years have been good for Russia. The turn-around started after the financial collapse in 1998 and the devaluation of the ruble. The economy started to grow in 1999 and has grown in each year since except for 2009 during the global financial crisis.

I think there is some reluctance in the West to admit how much Russia has progressed since 1998. It really is a different country now.


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(It will continue for years to come aswell, unless something idiotic occurs such as Nemtsov or Navalny getting support).
I would not worry about Nemtsov, Navalny and Udaltsov too much. They are a fringe political movement in Russia that receive too much attention in the Western media compared to their minimal political weight in Russia. The Communists are still the only opposition that really matters in Russia.

The only scenario where people like Navalnyi, Nemtsov and Udaltsov could be dangerous is that Russia enters some conflict or crisis. We have to remember that the changes of Lenin and Trotsky succeeding in their revolution would have been zero had Russia not foolishly entered the World War I. Navalnyi and Udaltsov are not Lenin and Trotsky. And Russia is not in a war.



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Funnily enough Grozny is going through an enormous boom, turning into a mini Dubai.
Not all folks in Russia are happy about this. Grozny (and all of Chechnya) has been rebuilt with federal money. Chechnya is like a big economic blackhole. It takes money from the federation without giving anything in return.

Yes, Grozny looks nice and dandy today. But many ethnic Russians are asking why could the same money not be used to build ancient but run-down Russian cities like Novgorod and Smolensk. The money Chechnya receives from Moscow is seen as a bribe in exchange for stability. It has been expensive but has somewhat worked since Chechnya has been pretty calm recently. Now the islamic insurgency has spread to neighbouring republics of Dagestan and Ingushetia. I don't think Russia is rich enough to finance these republics in a similar manner so Russia has to think other ways to deal with the islamists there.


Last edited by Peter25: 12-18-2012 at 06:49 AM.
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12-18-2012, 06:36 AM
  #565
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Ak Bars season tickets are good for play-offs, too? Not here at Slovan... The season tickets are ony valid for the 26 regular-season games, and they typically cost between €200 and €300 (that's between €7.69 and €11.53 per game). Half the arena are season-ticket holders, but there is fear that: a) play-off tickets (if Slovan gets there) will be a lot more expensive; b) season ticket prices will be raised much higher next year.
Season tickets I wrote about are good for the playoffs. In case of winning the Cup season ticket holders get free attendace at the special celebration party. There is a category for the regular seaon only. They are even cheaper at 4500 RUB.(That's of course the cheapest category tickets. The ones for the best seats are at 27000). Also returning season ticket holders are rewarded with up to 15% discount for the next season.

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12-18-2012, 06:48 AM
  #566
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Really? I thought Moscow is one of the expensive city in the world..
"Funny" fact. Novy Urengoy had to be closed for visitors. Even russian citizens couldn't go there without getting a permit like for visiting relatives or work. There is a real gold rush atmosphere there. The exploding wealth fed by oil and natural gas(what else?) is attracting far to many migrants russian and foreign. The region just couldn't handle it anymore.

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12-18-2012, 07:08 AM
  #567
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I think there is some reluctance in the West to admit how much Russia has progressed since 1998. It really is a different country now.
Correct, the turn around has been amazing, some of Putin's early reforms were very effective too.

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I would not worry about Nemtsov, Navalny and Udaltsov too much. They are a fringe political movement in Russia that receive too much attention in the Western media compared to their minimal political weight in Russia. The Communists are still the only opposition that really matters in Russia.
Yes I know they are fringe, I was at the protests (Although I prefer Putin over any politician currently available in Russia), and they all were yelled at by the protesters telling them to piss off The western media reporting on the issues was ridiculous too but that is another story Actually the Western media has been very negative and biased in its reporting of Russia ever since the country began to stand on its feet.

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Not all folks in Russia are happy about this. Grozny (and all of Chechnya) has been rebuilt with federal money. Chechnya is like a big economic blackhole. It takes money from the federation without giving anything in return.
From some (Not all) I have spoken to in Russian they seem to believe that rebuilding these regions while having Pro Russian Government puppets will allow the purge of terrorism. The terrorism coming out of Chechnya is very limited now, almost non existent. It is all in Ingushetia and Dagestan. Kerimov owning Anzhi Makhachkala is a project in itself I believe.

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12-18-2012, 07:53 AM
  #568
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Correct, the turn around has been amazing, some of Putin's early reforms were very effective too.
True, for example the tax reform in early 2000's was a huge success. During the Yeltsin regime the state was unable to collect taxes and therefore unable to pay public sector workers their salaries. Since the early 2000's the salaries of the public sector workers have always been paid. This is one of the biggest factors in Putin's popularity. People still remember the days of Yeltsin when the salaries were often paid in goods instead of real money (or not paid at all).

Of course we have to admit that the rise in oil price made things a "little" more easy. Then again, Russian economy started to grow rapidly in 1999-2000 when the oil price was something like $20 per barrel. But today the Russian state is very dependent of the high oil price and the current level of public spending would be impossible if the oil price was not so high as it is today.


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Yes I know they are fringe, I was at the protests (Although I prefer Putin over any politician currently available in Russia), and they all were yelled at by the protesters telling them to piss off

The western media reporting on the issues was ridiculous too but that is another story
I have read that there were many others like you in those "protests" as well. People who were not really rioting or "overthrowing the regime". Those who really wanted a revolution were a small minority. The Western assumptions (hopes) for the "Arab Spring" in Russia were ridiculous as you said.

When Navalnyi yelled to the crowd "we are big and strong enough to march to Kremlin and seize the power" he was laughed and ridiculed by the crowd.

Is amazes me that Navalny is still a free man though. What western country would let a political figure to openly advocate a violent revolution in the streets without imprisoning him?


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Actually the Western media has been very negative and biased in its reporting of Russia ever since the country began to stand on its feet.
Let's face it, nobody in the West really wants a strong Russia. There are many individuals (like myself) in the western countries who wish well for Russia, but western governments and the majority of the western population do not want to see a "resurgent" Russia.

We "liked" Russia when it was disintegrating and dying in the 1990's. We praised that drunken oaf Yeltsin and called him a "great democrat" when he and his oligarchic inner circle was running down his country.

Now that Russia has rebounded both economically and demographically (Russia will get natural population growth for the first time since 1992 this year) we are not so amused anymore. We hate Putin for what he did to Yukos and its western financiers.

While Russia may have stabilized and grown stronger internally its power projection capabilities are still limited. For example Russia has been unable to protect its Syrian ally Bashir Al-Assad from the western backed islamic rebels. During the Soviet Union this country presented a serious global counter-balance for the West. Not so anymore. What Russia has left if the veto-power in the UN but Russia will not get involded militarily outside of its borders anymore.

But since Russia has all that it needs inside its borders I'm not sure Russia even needs to "project power" thousands of kilometers out of its borders.


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From some (Not all) I have spoken to in Russian they seem to believe that rebuilding these regions while having Pro Russian Government puppets will allow the purge of terrorism. The terrorism coming out of Chechnya is very limited now, almost non existent. It is all in Ingushetia and Dagestan. Kerimov owning Anzhi Makhachkala is a project in itself I believe.
It is a real shame that North Caucasus is in this state. It should be a magnificent place. It has a great nature. Many areas there are as beautiful as the Swiss Alps.

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12-18-2012, 08:48 AM
  #569
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"Funny" fact. Novy Urengoy had to be closed for visitors. Even russian citizens couldn't go there without getting a permit like for visiting relatives or work. There is a real gold rush atmosphere there. The exploding wealth fed by oil and natural gas(what else?) is attracting far to many migrants russian and foreign. The region just couldn't handle it anymore.
Novy Urengoy is in Yamal peninsula which is basically a frozen tundra. The city was built by the Soviet pioneers in the 1960's after the massive natural gas reserves were found there. I think Novy Urengoy is the wealthiest individual city in Russia after Khanty Mansyisk. Today they call it a "Gazprom city" since basically everything there from apartments to kindergartens is owned by Gazprom.

What happens to Novy Urengoy after the gas reserves of Yamal peninsula are exploited to end? I guess it will be a ghost town. But we won't see that happening in our lifetime since the gas reserves of the Yamal peninsula are believed to be the world's largest.

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12-18-2012, 09:01 AM
  #570
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Novy Urengoy is in Yamal peninsula which is basically a frozen tundra.
LOL, I looked it up in Wikipedia and it freezes for 8 months a year there. In the absence of hockey to talk about, thanks for the instructive debate, guys. This is better than National Geographic.

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12-18-2012, 09:07 AM
  #571
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LOL, I looked it up in Wikipedia and it freezes for 8 months a year there. In the absence of hockey to talk about, thanks for the instructive debate, guys. This is better than National Geographic.
At least you have natural ice to play hockey in Novy Urengoy. No need for indoor rinks there

In fact Khanty Mansyisk (which has a KHL franchise) has a similar climate to Novy Urengoy, just a tad milder. Just north of Khanty Mansyisk begins a giant tundra that goes up to the Barents Sea.

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12-18-2012, 09:14 AM
  #572
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Please keep the discussion about hockey and what's relevant to hockey (affordability of tickets...), there is a political forum if you want to discuss the development of Russia.

Thanks for your understanding.

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12-18-2012, 09:47 AM
  #573
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Woops! The reminder is fine, but deleting all those carefully written, detailed posts... Have they been transferred to an off-topic thread elsewhere or are they just gone?

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12-18-2012, 09:59 AM
  #574
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Ok, posts can stay, but any further discussion on this topic will be deleted.

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12-18-2012, 10:06 AM
  #575
Faterson
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Thank you. Games starting up again tomorrow, so there'll be some hockey to talk about.

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