HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-18-2012, 10:43 AM
  #201
Turbofan
Just shoot it Toby!!
 
Turbofan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,860
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I just don't understand. Maybe someone can explain to me why this is still going on? The players got their "make whole" money, a 50/50 revenue split is fair and was adopted recently by the NFL and NBA two leagues that are wildly more successful than the NHL, 5 year max contracts with an option for 7 if you re-sign with your team is fair and good for the sport, and a 10 year CBA is a must at this point for the league. You can not grow the league if they lock out every 6 years. What are the sticking points? Is it just me or are the players holding this up? I mean either way they are all going to be millionaires by playing hockey. Is the collective group of players really willing to lose a whole years pay; which most will never recoup, so that star players like Sidney Crosby can get max deals?????
It's just holding out on principle right now. In a way I can understand it. And I wouldn't expect them to go down without a fight. Anyone would fight a pay-cut. I would.

But there comes a point where in fighting for principles, you lose perspective. You focus more on what you don't have (or are losing) than what you have and are going to retain. Even after all this is over, even a 'crushing' victory for the owners, would still result in the players retaining salaries that makes their average representative a multi-millionaire after a year, a very good CBA relative to other NA sports, and extremely good benefits and care.

For the most part these players are proud, young, and yes...honorable men who I would not expect to go down with a fight. But pride and principles are now damaging their livelihood, and hurting something they love..the sport. It doesn't surprise me too much, because as a young man I cut off my nose to spite my face more than a few times.

Turbofan is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:43 AM
  #202
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 7,508
vCash: 500
Steve Fehr says players ‘ready to meet’

http://www.therecord.com/sports/hock...duled-with-nhl

“We’ve always been willing and ready to bargain,” NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr told The Canadian Press on Monday night. “It seems like the league has ... paused or cut the process off several times over the last few months. I don’t know that we ever have.

“We’re ready to meet whenever they’re ready to meet.”

cbcwpg is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:48 AM
  #203
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
People keep saying Fehr is in this for his ego; isn't the more likely scenario one of him just actually doing his job?

Ego or not, "saving face" or not, he was brought in by the PA to get them the best deal possible. Besides, if the NHL refuses to negotiate with him, doesn't that seem like more of an "ego" win than anything by proving he's so tough nobody wants to take him on?
I looked through the post you quoted to see if I used the word "ego", and I see that I did not. I said that he's in this for his job as a sports union leader, and I talked about saving his "reputation", again as a "sports union leader"; and the part about "saving face" relates to protecting that reputation as a "sports union leader". But I still stick by the other comment I made, that Fehr doesn't care about the "hockey" side of the equation, what's good for the NHL.

MoreOrr is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #204
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blamebettman View Post
Oh I'm sorry...it's a players imposed lockout? Or is it an owner imposed lockout? Because last I checked the legacy, inheritance,market manipulating, tax cheat, miserly, barely know anything about hockey, make $100 million a year in my other ventures but will lock out the NHL because I don't make enough from my "toy" owners who are locking out the league

These owners only deserve one thing. A sledgehammer across the skull.

Jacobs company makes over 2.5 billion A YEAR. And he's being a petty ******* here quibbling over what amounts to be pennies. These NHL players grew up poor, most of them...work their ***** off in a brutal sport where you're 1 injury away from having no career and no life...you're washed up by 37-38 and likely lead a painful life in the aftermath due to nagging injuries...only to have a bunch of Mr. Burns misers who will make their billions whether the league plays or not turn the screws to you just to be vengeful. Jacobs needs a slapshot to the face, literally. make his mangled 80 year old corpse search the ice for a tooth while he's gushing blood...maybe then he'll have some respect for players.
What separates an NHL player from a career AHLer like Darren Haydar or Simon Gamache? Their experiences are exactly the same, except they don't end up in the same place...are their injuries less real, is the threat of being released at the drop of a hat any less real?

Mayor Bee is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:37 AM
  #205
RedMenace
100% Less Babcock
 
RedMenace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In the Tubes
Country: United States
Posts: 4,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I looked through the post you quoted to see if I used the word "ego", and I see that I did not. I said that he's in this for his job as a sports union leader, and I talked about saving his "reputation", again as a "sports union leader"; and the part about "saving face" relates to protecting that reputation as a "sports union leader". But I still stick by the other comment I made, that Fehr doesn't care about the "hockey" side of the equation, what's good for the NHL.
Then I misread your statement, and I apologize. Most pro-NHL people seem to like to demonize Fehr and say he's in this for his ego; I interpreted your use of "reputation" and "saving face" as one of personal rather that professional.

RedMenace is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:38 AM
  #206
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWheeler View Post
Hopefully the owners hang tight and don't cave.

Let the players BEG for their jobs back. But not for 50-50, tell them after the damage they've done to the league with their lockout, that now you need minimum 55%-60% in order to recoup your losses and potential losses since there's no WAY the league will make $3B again for a long time.

[Mod]
Since it isn't the player's lockout I think they are more apt to take that position. The owners locking the players out every cba is hurting revenue. Not the opposite.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:38 AM
  #207
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 18,170
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
My only question at this point is does Fehr have it in him to wave the white flag and tell the players "sorry but this is the best it's going to get, my promise of unrealistic financial windfalls at the owners expense was a pipe dream." Or is it going to take the players revolting against the NHLPA and its leadership for this deal to finally get done?
I think it will take a revolution, and Fehr has set up the ground rules within the union to make that difficult.

KINGS17 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:42 AM
  #208
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think it will take a revolution, and Fehr has set up the ground rules within the union to make that difficult.
Well then in the end Fehr will end up doing exactly what he did to the MLB. RUIN IT! Difference is in the MLB the players won and came out on top. Not only on top but the players won big. Not only is Fehr going to ruin the sport but his agenda of getting the players as much as possible will fail. Horribly! Congrats to Donald Fehr. I think he failed to realize that there is a major difference between a struggling league with a salary cap and a league with unlimited potential and no salary cap.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:49 AM
  #209
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I just don't understand. Maybe someone can explain to me why this is still going on? The players got their "make whole" money, a 50/50 revenue split is fair and was adopted recently by the NFL and NBA two leagues that are wildly more successful than the NHL, 5 year max contracts with an option for 7 if you re-sign with your team is fair and good for the sport, and a 10 year CBA is a must at this point for the league. You can not grow the league if they lock out every 6 years. What are the sticking points? Is it just me or are the players holding this up? I mean either way they are all going to be millionaires by playing hockey. Is the collective group of players really willing to lose a whole years pay; which most will never recoup, so that star players like Sidney Crosby can get max deals?????
The players began negotiations by coughing up 7% of revenue. I don't understand why people think they should just cave and let the owners have whatever they want. You do understand that the owner's demands will never stop right? As I have stated before, the next lockout is already planned. If the players don't make this one hurt then the next lockout is inevitable. Personally I believe it already is.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:50 AM
  #210
NYR90
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 157
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players began negotiations by coughing up 7% of revenue. I don't understand why people think they should just cave and let the owners have whatever they want. You do understand that the owner's demands will never stop right? As I have stated before, the next lockout is already planned. If the players don't make this one hurt then the next lockout is inevitable. Personally I believe it already is.
A lot of people also neglect the fact it's the owners locking out players with players making most of the concessions...

NYR90 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:52 AM
  #211
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players began negotiations by coughing up 7% of revenue. I don't understand why people think they should just cave and let the owners have whatever they want. You do understand that the owner's demands will never stop right? As I have stated before, the next lockout is already planned. If the players don't make this one hurt then the next lockout is inevitable. Personally I believe it already is.
57 percent is ridiculous. The precedent was set by the NBA and NFL. A 50/50 split of revenue is what it should be and what everyone already knew it was going to be. That "7 percent" wasn't a "give up" by the players it was a necessity to keep the league moving forward.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:55 AM
  #212
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
What separates an NHL player from a career AHLer like Darren Haydar or Simon Gamache? Their experiences are exactly the same, except they don't end up in the same place...are their injuries less real, is the threat of being released at the drop of a hat any less real?
They aren't as talented and therefore their skill is less marketable.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:55 AM
  #213
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR90 View Post
A lot of people also neglect the fact it's the owners locking out players with players making most of the concessions...
At this point the owners have offered the players a fair deal. They are choosing to hold out for more even though more is not to be had.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:59 AM
  #214
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Then I misread your statement, and I apologize. Most pro-NHL people seem to like to demonize Fehr and say he's in this for his ego; I interpreted your use of "reputation" and "saving face" as one of personal rather that professional.
Most of the anti Fehr people appear to simply be anti-union. It is a weird phenomena going on in the US these days of average working stiffs feeling sorry for billionaire union busters.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:02 PM
  #215
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Most of the anti Fehr people appear to simply be anti-union. It is a weird phenomena going on in the US these days of average working stiffs feeling sorry for billionaire union busters.
Haha, so we should feel sorry for Sidney Crosby? Making millions of dollars playing a game?

I don't feel sorry for either party but this isn't a group of teachers or plumbers fighting the establishment.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:04 PM
  #216
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Well then in the end Fehr will end up doing exactly what he did to the MLB. RUIN IT! Difference is in the MLB the players won and came out on top. Not only on top but the players won big. Not only is Fehr going to ruin the sport but his agenda of getting the players as much as possible will fail. Horribly! Congrats to Donald Fehr. I think he failed to realize that there is a major difference between a struggling league with a salary cap and a league with unlimited potential and no salary cap.
I don't think MLB has been ruined at all. It is a competitive league where owners who successfully market their product have the money to improve their product. Owners who fail to do so don't. I am a business owner and I don't have a guarantee that if my business fails others in my industry will reduce their quality so I can keep up.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:05 PM
  #217
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
57 percent is ridiculous. The precedent was set by the NBA and NFL. A 50/50 split of revenue is what it should be and what everyone already knew it was going to be. That "7 percent" wasn't a "give up" by the players it was a necessity to keep the league moving forward.
The players are no longer able to earn that money so it is definitely a "give up".

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:09 PM
  #218
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players are no longer able to earn that money so it is definitely a "give up".
As the league grows with a well balanced CBA that 50 percent will end up being more than the 57 percent under the old CBA. So yes they can but it will be an uphill battle if they lose an entire year.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:10 PM
  #219
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Haha, so we should feel sorry for Sidney Crosby? Making millions of dollars playing a game?

I don't feel sorry for either party but this isn't a group of teachers or plumbers fighting the establishment.
Correct but they are working people who have a talent that many people want to see. They don't owe the owners the right to exploit that talent for whatever price they name. Hockey is their job. Most people want to maximize the income earned from their job. Why is it okay for billionaire owners to seek maximum benefit but not the players? For the players hockey is their livelihood. For owners their franchises are very expensive toys.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:11 PM
  #220
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The players are no longer able to earn that money so it is definitely a "give up".
They made 57% under the old CBA. That CBA expired so the players are currently getting 0%. You can't "give up" something you don't have.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:13 PM
  #221
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
As the league grows with a well balanced CBA that 50 percent will end up being more than the 57 percent under the old CBA. So yes they can but it will be an uphill battle if they lose an entire year.
The owners locking out the players yet again will crush revenue. As a result the players will be taking a smaller percentage of a much smaller pot. By the time the league recovers what they lost many players will be at the end of their careers not to mention that is when the next lockout will be scheduled.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:14 PM
  #222
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 18,170
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Most of the anti Fehr people appear to simply be anti-union. It is a weird phenomena going on in the US these days of average working stiffs feeling sorry for billionaire union busters.
It's an entirely different topic, but a lot of the resentment of unions in the U.S. starts with public employee unions and their political power, which is a big conflict of interest. There is a good deal of unhappiness that remains regarding the auto bailout as well where the auto unions were "made whole" and investors who legally should have been first in line got the shaft.

I think the people here that don't like Fehr think that he ruined MLB (I happen to agree) and that his proposals on behalf of the players aren't based in economic reality. I also don't think he minds taking this into the courts because he hates the idea of a salary cap. Again, he is not being realistic.

KINGS17 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:14 PM
  #223
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Correct but they are working people who have a talent that many people want to see. They don't owe the owners the right to exploit that talent for whatever price they name. Hockey is their job. Most people want to maximize the income earned from their job. Why is it okay for billionaire owners to seek maximum benefit but not the players? For the players hockey is their livelihood. For owners their franchises are very expensive toys.
I am well aware of the anti trust laws. Fact remains though without owners the NHL doesn't exist. If the players don't like it then save up and buy a team. The owners are as necessary to the league as the players.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:14 PM
  #224
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
They made 57% under the old CBA. That CBA expired so the players are currently getting 0%. You can't "give up" something you don't have.
So "make whole" isn't a give on the owners' side?

DyerMaker66 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 12:15 PM
  #225
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
They made 57% under the old CBA. That CBA expired so the players are currently getting 0%. You can't "give up" something you don't have.
Presumably they will play hockey again. At that point they will do the same job for a smaller percentage of a smaller pot. Most employees wouldn't want to do that.

Actual Thought is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.