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Old
12-18-2012, 03:39 PM
  #376
arsmaster
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It was highlight video. I love the over analysis of his backward skating in a highlight video. Haha

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12-18-2012, 03:52 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
People also constantly overrate Detroit's prospects just because they can put up points at lower levels.

Just look at Teemu Pulkkinen, talked about as if he was a total steal in the 4th round but has regressed every year since his post-draft year. Now has 14 points in 32 games in SM-liiga, 1 more point than Hansen in 17 more games. Suddenly you won't hear his name brought up much anymore.

They drafted Sproul in the 2nd round in 2011, Corrado is a better prospect picked in the 5th round.

People talk about Canucks not having a single guy make the NHL since 2008 (which isn't even true since we had Hodgson), but guess what? Last Red Wings prospect to make the NHL full time was drafted in 2006.

And it's not like they've been killing it on the free agent market either. Canucks snagged Lack and Tanev, both probably comparable to a late 1st or 2nd round pick. Detroit has no one.

There was a time when Montreal was the team with a shiny prospect pool, everyone producing amazing numbers in lower leagues and the future was bright. How did that work out for them?


The point was about targeting players that will better translate into the team's respective system. The Canucks don't employ puck rushers, it's a reason why Ballard hasn't worked out here. McNally is in that mold. Is that the right way to go though, when you know the system doesn't emphasis his skillset? That's the question being asked.


And in your honest opinion, do you not consider DET's _current_ prospect pool better than that of the Canucks own? Many see that it is. So you would definitely be going against the grain if you do.

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12-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The point was about targeting players that will better translate into the team's respective system. The Canucks don't employ puck rushers, it's a reason why Ballard hasn't worked out here. McNally is in that mold. Is that the right way to go though, when you know the system doesn't emphasis his skillset? That's the question being asked.

And in your honest opinion, do you not consider DET's _current_ prospect pool better than that of the Canucks own? Many see that it is. So you would definitely be going against the grain if you do.
I think it's better due to Brendan Smith (2007), but that's about it. I think a lot of their guys will not make the NHL due to the various issues in their games which made them fall in the first place. (And that mostly means that I don't think much of their prospect pool, because I do rank ours quite low.)

As for drafting guys that fit into the system, I don't see the point. I mean, you can always trade a guy if they turn out to be a good player that just doesn't match your system. Besides, slow skaters don't match Babcock's system at all and they've drafted a lot of them over the past few years.

On McNally, he's a completely different case from Ballard. Ballard's problem is that he's not an amazing puck rusher and at the same time has a pretty weak first pass. At least McNally's first pass is actually really good even if he does prefer to rush the puck. He's also better at rushing the puck than Ballard was at the college level.

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12-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It was highlight video. I love the over analysis of his backward skating in a highlight video. Haha
Yeah what the hell feebster, include more sweep checks and rub outs in your highlight vids.

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12-18-2012, 04:20 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think it's better due to Brendan Smith (2007), but that's about it. I think a lot of their guys will not make the NHL due to the various issues in their games which made them fall in the first place. (And that mostly means that I don't think much of their prospect pool, because I do rank ours quite low.)


What do you rank the VAN prospect pool as? What number among all teams. Just curious. And what's DET ranking by comparison?


So Brendan Smith separates DET's pool from VAN's own... interesting. What's the equivalent of Jarnkrok here? Oullete? Nyquist? Tatar? Even if you rank the higher end guys near VAN's high end guys, they definitely have more, making their pool deeper.




Quote:
As for drafting guys that fit into the system, I don't see the point. I mean, you can always trade a guy if they turn out to be a good player that just doesn't match your system. Besides, slow skaters don't match Babcock's system at all and they've drafted a lot of them over the past few years.


They have, and IMO, it's because it matters less to their system than IQ does, or the weighting they give to production at earlier ages. The latter point is another reason their pool is favoured. Most of their young players are continuing strong production tracks. Not so for VAN's prospects.


I think it's especially telling to get 7th rounders like Almqvist come in and perform well in the AHL -> They get value out of their depth picks even.



Quote:
On McNally, he's a completely different case from Ballard. Ballard's problem is that he's not an amazing puck rusher and at the same time has a pretty weak first pass. At least McNally's first pass is actually really good even if he does prefer to rush the puck. He's also better at rushing the puck than Ballard was at the college level.



Let's hope that first pass of McNally's is strong, because it's going to make or break him here IMO. This is system is extremely reliant upon it.

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12-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #381
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The Canucks 'system' is predicated on two players (hint. they look the same).

I don't imagine they'll be around forever, I think we need skilled players, with hockey sense, and a passion for the game....I don't care what style they play.

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12-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #382
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There is some mgmt problem when a team drafts 2 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders from the Q and gets such poor results. Proper mgmt would have a check and balance system ie trust but check, as well as a performance review of the owner of the draft picks. A situation exacerbated by the lack of draft picks.

ps - puck rushing is so pee-wee. It catches up to 99.99999% of players at the NHL level.

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12-18-2012, 04:38 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The Canucks 'system' is predicated on two players (hint. they look the same).

I don't imagine they'll be around forever, I think we need skilled players, with hockey sense, and a passion for the game....I don't care what style they play.
Going with this, I wanted to point out people don't think about this often enough. I mean we are talking about kids that will generally need 4 plus years to turn out. What is the point of drafting on need. Draft on your own thoughts about where they are going to be. Of course if we had some better people for this, maybe we would get beter results.

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12-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
There is some mgmt problem when a team drafts 2 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders from the Q and gets such poor results. Proper mgmt would have a check and balance system ie trust but check, as well as a performance review of the owner of the draft picks. A situation exacerbated by the lack of draft picks.

ps - puck rushing is so pee-wee. It catches up to 99.99999% of players at the NHL level.
Not having a good to great puck rusher last season killed our PP's effectiveness.

I liked Ehrhoff, and he clearly helped our zone entries on the PP...without him, we became dependant on the neutral zone drop pass which ultimately killed our season.

Puck rushing is a great skill to possess, I don't care what system you play, if you can't gain the line, you're dumping and chasing.

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12-18-2012, 05:03 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Not having a good to great puck rusher last season killed our PP's effectiveness.

I liked Ehrhoff, and he clearly helped our zone entries on the PP...without him, we became dependant on the neutral zone drop pass which ultimately killed our season.

Puck rushing is a great skill to possess, I don't care what system you play, if you can't gain the line, you're dumping and chasing.



Puck rushing is a great skill, but if it's your primary skill-set, is it really something that should be targeted over more "necessary" skills as it pertains to your system? I don't think so. The system is absolutely a factor here. If you draft players that can better translate their games to your system, odds are they are going to progress better in this environment. Where as the opposite is true in a negative relationship.

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12-18-2012, 05:05 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
However, what is this player's future looking like when he is a puck rusher, rover when the Canucks don't play that way.

Hate to bring up DET again, but they constantly target players that can play in _their_ system.
If we are following this philosophy, why would Montreal draft PK Subban? He was perhaps just as reckless in the O and more of a rover. Did he fit their system when they drafted him? I think Guy Carbonneau's system says otherwise. But does that mean Montreal shouldn't take PK?

Ehrhoff fit in our system pretty well. I'd even say he was a very important cog with the way he moved the puck up the ice. He was a puck rusher and was adapted into our system. Still contend it was Gillis' biggest mistake thus far.

------------------------

To the others: McNally is 20 years old in those games and in his first year of NCAA hockey. I feel you are neglecting this. The step up from prep to NCAA isn't exactly easy. The fact that he adjusted to this higher level of play this quickly is success in itself.

Schultz also had questions about his defensive game in his rookie season, but his defensive game progressed significantly in his next 2 seasons. To assume McNally can't adapt and develop his all around game is a bit presumptuous.

And I'd like to add that i don't think McNally's defensive weakness is backwards skating or defending off the rush or transition. In fact, he kept his man on the outside usually or rubbed him out on the half wall or behind the net. His defensive issues stem from understanding where to be in the defensive zone, when to attack the puck and when to stay in position in front of the net. He makes some risky decisions there and at times, gets caught. He needs to work on his coverage; saw him staring at the puck once forgetting a completely open guy backdoor. The puck was in the net before he turned around. This is in addition to the one example where he left the front of the net open to go below the goal line when his partner already had the puck carrier below the goal line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Yeah what the hell feebster, include more sweep checks and rub outs in your highlight vids.
LOL. Boring! Actually i did cut a couple of rub outs...

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:23 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It was highlight video. I love the over analysis of his backward skating in a highlight video. Haha
I love people saying he's a surefire NHL'er after only see him skate forwards. Dumba would be on Team Canada if we only based judgments on how someone plays going North.

People proclaiming him amazing based off that need to have a bit of a reality check.

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12-18-2012, 05:35 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
If we are following this philosophy, why would Montreal draft PK Subban? He was perhaps just as reckless in the O and more of a rover. Did he fit their system when they drafted him? I think Guy Carbonneau's system says otherwise. But does that mean Montreal shouldn't take PK?


They should have taken him, but you have to account for both that particular draft as a whole and the overall pool too. At that point in the draft, MTL had made their high probability picks in Pacioretty and McDonough in the first round, they could afford to take the chance on an unfit Subban. Turns out that it worked for them also (they had an excellent 2007 draft IMO). It didn't mean that the odds that he would progress were better/worse. I'm saying that a system fit would have a better chance at progressing.



Where are the Canucks "sure bets" by comparison? The lack of picks, the state of the pool as a whole and that particular 2010 draft in particular is what makes me more critical of style than otherwise I should be. Maybe I wouldn't be as discerning if there were more bright spots elsewhere?



I'll revise my statement: As a general rule, I like it when teams draft players with traits that will better translate to their given systems. IMO, the odds said player will better progress in such cases increase.

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12-18-2012, 05:46 PM
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
There is some mgmt problem when a team drafts 2 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders from the Q and gets such poor results. Proper mgmt would have a check and balance system ie trust but check, as well as a performance review of the owner of the draft picks. A situation exacerbated by the lack of draft picks.

ps - puck rushing is so pee-wee. It catches up to 99.99999% of players at the NHL level.
We don't have anyone on our back end right now with a high level of offensive sense and puck handling skills. McNally has the potential to bring that.

We need someone like Schultz, Ehrhoff, Karlsson if we want our PP to continue to be lethal. Just a quick/shift skater, good/shifty puck handling skills, and good vision. They don't even need to have a big shot, we have enough triggermen.

The issue with our PP last season was zone entry. Once we're set up in the zone, the Sedins are usually pretty good about keeping it in there.

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12-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by StrictlyCommercial View Post
I love people saying he's a surefire NHL'er after only see him skate forwards. Dumba would be on Team Canada if we only based judgments on how someone plays going North.

People proclaiming him amazing based off that need to have a bit of a reality check.
Who in this thread called him a sure fire NHLer? Not one person!

Pretty sure most of the comments were that he was an effective rusher of the puck, nothing less, nothing more.


Last edited by arsmaster: 12-18-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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12-18-2012, 05:57 PM
  #391
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Bleach:

What is Detroit's style of play, and how are they taking players that 'fit' their system?

Seems to me they are just taking skilled players and even they make mistakes (I'm sure they'd like a mulligan on McCollum over Markstrom).

Like I said earlier, I want players who are skilled, have hockey sense, and are absolutely passionate about the game, the 3rd characteristic IMO is the one that takes good players and makes them great.

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12-18-2012, 06:02 PM
  #392
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Who in this thread called him a sure fire NHLer? Not one person!
Reverend Mayhem did.

StrictlyCommercial, If you're going to call someone out, at least have the guts do it to them directly.

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12-18-2012, 06:06 PM
  #393
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Reverend Mayhem did.

StrictlyCommercial, If you're going to call someone out, at least have the guts do it to them directly.
Could you show which post, I only looked at posts after thefeebster posted the video.

this was all i could find:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Don't like using highlight packages to assess a prospect or player, but in those clips McNally just looks dangerous. The way he skates and handles himself just makes himself seem like a player worth watching.
Didn't see any mention of sure fire NHLer.

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12-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Could you show which post, I only looked at posts after thefeebster posted the video.

this was all i could find:



Didn't see any mention of sure fire NHLer.
"Sorta...like I told my friend, bigfatjoe1, he's definitely gonna play NHL games."

Definitely some hyperbole on StrictlyCommercial's fault.

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12-18-2012, 06:11 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Where are the Canucks "sure bets" by comparison? The lack of picks, the state of the pool as a whole and that particular 2010 draft in particular is what makes me more critical of style than otherwise I should be. Maybe I wouldn't be as discerning if there were more bright spots elsewhere?
We had no picks through the 1st to 3rd round. How are we supposed to take any "sure bets" from the 4th round and onwards? As people on HF have drilled into us with the lack of hockey due to this lockout, the likelihood of anyone becoming an NHL player after the 2nd round severely diminishes. There are no sure bets in drafting in the late rounds, but we did get a guy ranked 40th by the CSB at #115, that's a low risk pick and good value. And he is developing as we hoped (well up until this cheating scandal).

Yes, 2010 is a bit sad overall, but i still don't think it should be a negative used against the McNally pick. Using hindsight and guys chosen quickly after, Gallagher 2 picks after Polasek, Mark Stone 3 picks after Illahti, Trotman 5 picks after Hannay. It's sad when you look at it like that, but not every team hits with these late round picks. Take a look at Detroit from the 4th round onwards: Pulkkinen, Mrazek, Macek, and Ben Marshall. It ain't pretty either and they also have a lone bright spot in Mrazek.

---------

Not sure why there is such fascination with McNally's backwards skating. But i can comfortably say there isn't any issue here and that he is a much better skater than Dumba. Not even comparable.

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12-18-2012, 06:18 PM
  #396
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"Sorta...like I told my friend, bigfatjoe1, he's definitely gonna play NHL games."

Definitely some hyperbole on StrictlyCommercial's fault.
Thanks wisp.

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12-18-2012, 06:18 PM
  #397
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AV isn't adverse to having players rush the puck, he's adverse to having Keith Ballard rush the puck. Vancouver has arguably the most active defense in the NHL - Patrick McNally is absolutely cut out for this system.

I only wish Gillis arrived 1 year sooner - he probably opts to take the highly skilled Justin Schultz in the 2nd rd instead of going with Sauve's size...

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12-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
AV isn't adverse to having players rush the puck, he's adverse to having Keith Ballard rush the puck. Vancouver has arguably the most active defense in the NHL - Patrick McNally is absolutely cut out for this system.

I only wish Gillis arrived 1 year sooner - he probably opts to take the highly skilled Justin Schultz in the 2nd rd instead of going with Sauve's size...
So Schultz can **** us instead of ****ing Anaheim right

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12-18-2012, 06:38 PM
  #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
"Sorta...like I told my friend, bigfatjoe1, he's definitely gonna play NHL games."

Definitely some hyperbole on StrictlyCommercial's fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Reverend Mayhem did.

StrictlyCommercial, If you're going to call someone out, at least have the guts do it to them directly.
What the **** is going on here? I said he would play NHL games. I'm not saying he's going to be a good one or a bad one. He could play 1 for all I know. But my bet is he will suit up for the Canucks, if not some NHL team. Not saying he's the second coming of Scott Niedermayer guys.

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12-18-2012, 07:03 PM
  #400
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What the **** is going on here? I said he would play NHL games. I'm not saying he's going to be a good one or a bad one. He could play 1 for all I know. But my bet is he will suit up for the Canucks, if not some NHL team. Not saying he's the second coming of Scott Niedermayer guys.
You are misinterpreting me. I was actually defending you.

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