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Old
12-18-2012, 07:32 PM
  #51
Montreal Shadow
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
its better than my weak English.

And for the record i wrote the first french palindromic poem ever:

Être là, amère, si mal,
Être passive, je dirais.
Être ‘venue jeune mère, mais,
Être là, amère, si mal!

Elle bise ma douce vérité,
Elle me frise de rage, égal!
Étire mal-être, pleur cru, ô mal,
L’amour cruel*? Perte l’a mérité.

L’âge égare désir femelle,
Étire vécu, ô dame si belle,
La misère m’a alerté.

Si amère, menue, jeune, verte,
Si aride, je vis sa perte,
La misère m’a alerté.

Thats where my nick come from
That poem doesn't even make sense...

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:35 PM
  #52
CanuckLuck
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Do you think Nashville would accept?
I think swapping two elite goaltenders is pretty pointless. I don't think it's wrong in terms of value, though...

I know you weren't asking me just wanted to give my two cents.

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I think swapping two elite goaltenders is pretty pointless. I don't think it's wrong in terms of value, though...

I know you weren't asking me just wanted to give my two cents.
It was Galchenyuk for Rinne, not Price for Rinne.

Of course i would not do it as a Montreal fans (does some fan would do it?), but i wonder if Nashville would

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:55 PM
  #54
Montreal Shadow
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
It was Galchenyuk for Rinne, not Price for Rinne.

Of course i would not do it as a Montreal fans (does some fan would do it?), but i wonder if Nashville would
Nashville fans would be retarded to do that. Montreal even more so.

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12-18-2012, 08:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Nashville fans would be retarded to do that. Montreal even more so.
I would do it from a Nashville point of view.

You all know that i dont hate Price. I just dont like high paid goalies, and Rinne is on the top of the list of them.

and by the way any of you are aware of Rinne performance in the KHL ?

.897% in 22gp, he is one of the worst starter of the KHL.

how do we explain that?

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12-18-2012, 08:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
It was Galchenyuk for Rinne, not Price for Rinne.

Of course i would not do it as a Montreal fans (does some fan would do it?), but i wonder if Nashville would
Seems pretty obvious they would say no...

Rinne is a top 3 goaltender and Nashville just lost Suter on the backend and potentially Weber. Montreal would be adding..and a lot.

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12-18-2012, 08:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Seems pretty obvious they would say no...

Rinne is a top 3 goaltender and Nashville just lost Suter on the backend and potentially Weber. Montreal would be adding..and a lot.
Do you value Rinne more than Luongo?

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12-18-2012, 08:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Do you value Rinne more than Luongo?
Yes. Rinne is 3.5yrs younger and while his contract has a larger CAP hit, it is still more appealing because of the length.

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12-18-2012, 08:39 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Yes. Rinne is 3.5yrs younger and while his contract has a larger CAP hit, it is still more appealing because of the length.
then lets wait until Luongo is traded, it will give us an idea of Rinne value. (considering Rinne worth more of course).

And how do you explain Rinne bad performance in the KHL ? 22gp .897, among the worst starter?

The small sample of games played?
Hard to adjust to the KHL ?
Lack or motivation, preparation?
Without Sutter and Webber, he doesn't look as good?

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Old
12-18-2012, 08:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
then lets wait until Luongo is traded, it will give us an idea of Rinne value. (considering Rinne worth more of course).

And how do you explain Rinne bad performance in the KHL ? 22gp .897, among the worst starter?

The small sample of games played?
Hard to adjust to the KHL ?
Lack or motivation, preparation?
Without Sutter and Webber, he doesn't look as good?
I think you just nailed all 4 of those

Goaltenders should be judged on consistency. The position is too up and down to make judgement off of 22 games. The real question is, do you really think Rinne is the worst goaltender in the KHL?
With a position of such little room for mistake, a completely different change of pace would be extremely hard to adjust to especially in a league you are not as motivated to be successful at (I only assume that part)
And any goalie will look worse without Suter and Weber.

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12-18-2012, 08:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I think you just nailed all 4 of those

Goaltenders should be judged on consistency. The position is too up and down to make judgement off of 22 games. The real question is, do you really think Rinne is the worst goaltender in the KHL?
With a position of such little room for mistake, a completely different change of pace would be extremely hard to adjust to especially in a league you are not as motivated to be successful at (I only assume that part)
And any goalie will look worse without Suter and Weber.
The real question for me is: In a salary cap world, At 7 000 000$ does Rinne worth more than a Galchenyuk ?

And for me the answer is no.

Especially if, for whatever reason, the possibility that this kind of goalie can be statistically among the worst KHL starter after 22 games.

Even last year in the NHL at .923% his performance isnt that much of a difference over an average goalie to warrant a 7 000 000$ contract.

The median was .915%, Having Rinne over the median goalie mean about 12-16 less goals allowed over an entire season, if i remember well.


Last edited by palindrom: 12-18-2012 at 09:08 PM.
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Old
12-18-2012, 09:36 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
You think Rob Schremp didn't want to play a pro game? He was just in hockey because it was fun?


Right, his 2.5ppg year was when he was 20, my bad.. Even so, 30 games in the OHL at age 19 is not nearly enough to say anything definitively.. Let alone because of loose narratives like "has all the tools"..
Loose narratives? Haha. I'm afraid that's what you get when you spew stat lines for two players you've never seen play a hockey game in order to make a point. Especially when you get the years mixed up. Haha. I'm sorry buddy, but you are just going to have to fold 'em here.

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Old
12-18-2012, 10:11 PM
  #63
CanuckLuck
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
The real question for me is: In a salary cap world, At 7 000 000$ does Rinne worth more than a Galchenyuk ?

And for me the answer is no.

Especially if, for whatever reason, the possibility that this kind of goalie can be statistically among the worst KHL starter after 22 games.

Even last year in the NHL at .923% his performance isnt that much of a difference over an average goalie to warrant a 7 000 000$ contract.

The median was .915%, Having Rinne over the median goalie mean about 12-16 less goals allowed over an entire season, if i remember well.
I feel like if you had a lousy or just average goaltender between the pipes in Montreal you would understand the impact they have on your hockey team. I simply don't know how you value a 3rd overall pick more so than a top 3 elite goaltender in the NHL...regardless of CAP hit.

Malkin and Ovechkin have a huge CAP hit but they are clearly more valuable than an early 1st rounder. Seems like you just give no value to goaltenders.

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Old
12-18-2012, 11:11 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
The median was .915%, Having Rinne over the median goalie mean about 12-16 less goals allowed over an entire season, if i remember well.
With the league as tight as it is, allowing 12-16 less goals over the course of a season could be the difference in the outcome of 12-16 games.

Edit: just realized this is a Plek-DD-Eller value thread. How did we get talking about Rinne?

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Old
12-18-2012, 11:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
With the league as tight as it is, allowing 12-16 less goals over the course of a season could be the difference in the outcome of 12-16 games.

Edit: just realized this is a Plek-DD-Eller value thread. How did we get talking about Rinne?
well, the basic idea is if you have a 7 000 000$ value in forwards/defenseman instead.

does it make more than a 12-16 goals difference?

I really think, if it was possible, Nashville should had signed Sutter and trade Rinne.

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12-18-2012, 11:35 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
well, the basic idea is if you have a 7 000 000$ value in forwards/defenseman instead.

does it make more than a 12-16 goals difference?

I really think, if it was possible, Nashville should had signed Sutter and trade Rinne.
Except NHL starting goalies don't play for free, so trading Rinne doesn't free up a full $7mil b/c you have to account for his replacement. Even a mediocre starter will cost you $3-4 mil so you are left with $3-4mil for an upgrade elsewhere.

To put that into perspective, you could have Dubnyk+R. Bourque, or you could have a top-5 goalie+cheap secondary scoring. I think secondary scoring is easier to find on the cheap than decent goaltending, so I'd take the top goalie every time.

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12-18-2012, 11:50 PM
  #67
palindrom
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Except NHL starting goalies don't play for free, so trading Rinne doesn't free up a full $7mil b/c you have to account for his replacement. Even a mediocre starter will cost you $3-4 mil so you are left with $3-4mil for an upgrade elsewhere.

To put that into perspective, you could have Dubnyk+R. Bourque, or you could have a top-5 goalie+cheap secondary scoring. I think secondary scoring is easier to find on the cheap than decent goaltending, so I'd take the top goalie every time.
Dont worry, this is right and was all taken into account in previous study.

The basic idea is by investing the 7 000 000$ in forward/defenseman instead of a goalies, you also take the spot of lower pay defenseman/player, this free salary to pay the new goalie.

its like having a 7 000 000$ forward with a 4 000 000$ goalie or a 7 000 000$ goalie and 4 000 000$ forward, what matter is where you invest the most, and where it make the greatest positive impact on a team.


Last edited by palindrom: 12-18-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 07:02 AM
  #68
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ok, let set this straight....

I am willing to trade Price for under what most Habs fans are asking for him.

But really i am not willing to trade Galchenyuk, Subban or MaxPac.

Plekanec on the other hand....we could work on something.
I would rather trade the midget dd before pleks

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:24 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Dont worry, this is right and was all taken into account in previous study.

The basic idea is by investing the 7 000 000$ in forward/defenseman instead of a goalies, you also take the spot of lower pay defenseman/player, this free salary to pay the new goalie.

its like having a 7 000 000$ forward with a 4 000 000$ goalie or a 7 000 000$ goalie and 4 000 000$ forward, what matter is where you invest the most, and where it make the greatest positive impact on a team.
The problem with this logic is that you are looking at dollars and not players. When GM's have the opportunity to sign a great player, they will take it or risk losing out. What if Nashville hadn't signed Rinne and BOTH left?

You could point to the Chicago-Philly finals of a couple years ago to support your point, or you could look to the last 2 playoffs where the winning team's goalie won MVP.

Also, as a Habs fan, do you really think that signing guys like Gomez (7mil), Cammy (6mil), Gionta (5mil), Kaberle (4.25mil) is a better investment worth downgrading to a mediocre goalie from a franchise goalie in Price?

My point is that it is not a simple division of salaries by position, it's who you're paying and how well they play. I'd rather invest $7mil for Rinne than any of the players on Montreal listed above (and Cammy).

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12-19-2012, 12:41 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
The problem with this logic is that you are looking at dollars and not players. When GM's have the opportunity to sign a great player, they will take it or risk losing out. What if Nashville hadn't signed Rinne and BOTH left?

You could point to the Chicago-Philly finals of a couple years ago to support your point, or you could look to the last 2 playoffs where the winning team's goalie won MVP.

Also, as a Habs fan, do you really think that signing guys like Gomez (7mil), Cammy (6mil), Gionta (5mil), Kaberle (4.25mil) is a better investment worth downgrading to a mediocre goalie from a franchise goalie in Price?

My point is that it is not a simple division of salaries by position, it's who you're paying and how well they play. I'd rather invest $7mil for Rinne than any of the players on Montreal listed above (and Cammy).
Nailed it.

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12-19-2012, 05:42 PM
  #71
palindrom
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
The problem with this logic is that you are looking at dollars and not players. When GM's have the opportunity to sign a great player, they will take it or risk losing out. What if Nashville hadn't signed Rinne and BOTH left?

You could point to the Chicago-Philly finals of a couple years ago to support your point, or you could look to the last 2 playoffs where the winning team's goalie won MVP.

Also, as a Habs fan, do you really think that signing guys like Gomez (7mil), Cammy (6mil), Gionta (5mil), Kaberle (4.25mil) is a better investment worth downgrading to a mediocre goalie from a franchise goalie in Price?

My point is that it is not a simple division of salaries by position, it's who you're paying and how well they play. I'd rather invest $7mil for Rinne than any of the players on Montreal listed above (and Cammy).
What if Nashville lost Rinne? Probably the same thing that happened to Florida and Phoenix after the lost of their elite goalie in Vokoun and Bryzgalov and replaced them by cheap UFA: Florida had their best season in a decade and Phoenix their best season in history. What if Florida retained Vokoun at 5 000 000+ instead of a Theodore + a Versteeg of Fleishmann? How many hockey expert predicted without Bryzgalov, Phoenix didnt had a chance ? (they gave the $ to Yandle instead)

i dont want to show all the stats against because i already sound like a broken disk and many other fans saw all that before. But i can give you a link.

I can tell you, if we take into account all teams and all games played in the past 2 seasons, there is indeed a negative correlation between a team success and how much % of their budget they invest in goalie.


Last edited by palindrom: 12-19-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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12-19-2012, 06:13 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
What if Nashville lost Rinne? Probably the same thing that happened to Florida and Phoenix after the lost of their elite goalie in Vokoun and Bryzgalov and replaced them by cheap UFA: Florida had their best season in a decade and Phoenix their best season in history. What if Florida retained Vokoun at 5 000 000+ instead of a Theodore + a Versteeg of Fleishmann? How many hockey expert predicted without Bryzgalov, Phoenix didnt had a chance ? (they gave the $ to Yandle instead)

i dont want to show all the stats against because i already sound like a broken disk and many other fans saw all that before. But i can give you a link.

I can tell you, if we take into account all teams and all games played in the past 2 seasons, there is indeed a negative correlation between a team success and how much % of their budget they invest in goalie.
I wish you would cheer for another team. Montreal would have like 3 cups if it weren't for their HOF goaltenders so I just don't see why you want to try and win with garbage goalies to save 3 million when it isn't even your money.

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Old
12-19-2012, 06:18 PM
  #73
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I wish you would cheer for another team. Montreal would have like 3 cups if it weren't for their HOF goaltenders so I just don't see why you want to try and win with garbage goalies to save 3 million when it isn't even your money.
It was another era not affected by the salary cap and where the goalie market showed us how elite goalie value was incredible then.

dont worry in the 80' and 90' and early 2000 (before the lockout) i was all about having an elite goalie, i had no problem to overpay for them then. The result was there.

But You have to adjust your strategy according to the market and the CBA.


Last edited by palindrom: 12-19-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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12-19-2012, 06:40 PM
  #74
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Laval
Civic Kayak
Radar Sexes ,
Hannah!

Racecar

Thank you Montreal

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12-19-2012, 06:41 PM
  #75
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what are you talking about? Decline? pfffft. You'll take the deal and thank me for getting that much. I'm trading you a legit top line fwd for an unproven prospect and an overpaid goalie that has accomplished nothing in his career.

Decline indeed.
Is this a joke?

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