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Rielly ranked #1 of 2012 draft class in TSN (Craig Button) Top 30 NHL Prospects

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Old
12-18-2012, 08:31 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Why?

I never understood why people equate " x points by a defenseman = great defenseman".

Isn't a d-man first duty to play defense, and not to be a fourth forward?

Was Tom Bladon a very good defenseman?

Is Marc-André Bergeron a good defenseman?

Was Mike Green a great defenseman when he had two PPG seasons?

Is Sheldon Souray a very good defenseman?

And that is not to say that Schultz won't be a very good/great defenseman. But if he is, it won't simply be because he's putting up points.
Not really. If you're talking a true #1 guy, then offense is very important.

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12-18-2012, 08:31 PM
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Button on TSN predicted Burke was going to take Forberg 5th overall the night before the draft. Mcguire said he'd take Rielly.
I don't see how you highlighting Button's inaccuracies serves to boost Rielly's stock as a prospect. All you're doing is making it seem like Rielly isn't actually the best prospect of 2012.

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12-18-2012, 08:32 PM
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I don't see how you highlighting Button's inaccuracies serves to boost Rielly's stock as a prospect. All you're doing is making it seem like Rielly isn't actually the best prospect of 2012.
I wasn't. I just thought it was interesting. Button was high on Rielly, but I guess he thought Burke needed help upfront more.

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12-18-2012, 08:33 PM
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Come on man. Do you honestly think four teams pass on a future legendary defenceman like Orr and Coffey?

Please, let's stay grounded.
You are right, actually 5 teams passed on Paul Coffey.

You are simply full of crap....

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12-18-2012, 08:34 PM
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Not really. If you're talking a true #1 guy, then offense is very important.
Coupled with very effective defence.

In modern day terms that would be our Chara, Weber, Lidstrom, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Keith! (Reilly take note), ...

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12-18-2012, 08:38 PM
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I wasn't. I just thought it was interesting. Button was high on Rielly, but I guess he thought Burke needed help upfront more.
lol ok.

Just checking.


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12-18-2012, 08:42 PM
  #307
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Coupled with very effective defence.

In modern day terms that would be our Chara, Weber, Lidstrom, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Keith! (Reilly take note), ...
Rielly's offense is much more important. He has the raw skills to be a star. Better than drafting a Luke Schenn type.

Even Reinhart being ranked so low by Button is because his skill is far below a Rielly.

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12-18-2012, 08:44 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Just wondering, what are you debating here with CharlesLemieux?

Maybe me and my keen logical skills can be of some assistance here.
He doesn't need that type of help.


PLease don't unleash your mental weaponry on me. I'm beggin you.

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12-18-2012, 08:51 PM
  #309
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I wasn't discussing anything. I was asking a question. Difference!
Not every sentence ending with a "?" is a question.

Using a "?" to reinforce a statement is an old literary device.

Reading your post once again, it's quite evident that your first sentence was a statement, not a question.

You wanted to mock him, and you ended up looking foolish.

But let he who has never sinned cast the first stone, as someone once would have supposedly said...

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12-18-2012, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Rielly's offense is much more important.
What do you mean by this?

Quote:
He has the raw skills to be a star.
Depends how loosely you like using the term. Was Kaberle a star to you? Is Letang a star to you? Enstrom? Campbell? Or is Karlsson a star?

Offence can be tracked pretty easily with point trackers but defence DOES NOT show up on a stat tracker. Some people are simply oblivious to it but it is as important as offence.

Quote:
Better than drafting a Luke Schenn type.
Definitely agree here. I'm way more optimistic about this pick than Schenn's (who cost an arm and a leg too). Reinhart seems like that kind of pick

Quote:
Even Reinhart being ranked so low by Button is because his skill is far below a Rielly.
Seems like the Islanders drafted on need rather than best player at the time. They have Calvin Dehaan and Visnovsky and Streit right? Maybe they want some backup for Hamonic solidifying the net?

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12-18-2012, 08:56 PM
  #311
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YOU don't like James Ready?
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You should use this as your avatar.

Little known fact that Gionta is the best rapper in the NHL.
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12-18-2012, 08:57 PM
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Not really. If you're talking a true #1 guy, then offense is very important.
Did I ever say otherwise?

Simply stated: a true star d-man is usually good offensively, but not all good offensive d-men are stars.

PS: Forgot to add that subset of fans only talks about points, and almost never about defensive play.

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12-18-2012, 09:01 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Not every sentence ending with a "?" is a question.

Using a "?" to reinforce a statement is an old literary device.

Reading your post once again, it's quite evident that your first sentence was a statement, not a question.

You wanted to mock him, and you ended up looking foolish.

But let he who has never sinned cast the first stone, as someone once would have supposedly said...
THe first statement was an inquisition. The second was a statement based on a straw man of what I figured was the answer to my initial question.

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12-18-2012, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YOU don't like James Ready?
Oh god no. My word Charles do I have to instruct you in everything from Toronto Maple Leafs to hockey to brew? I thought the three go hand in hand?

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12-18-2012, 09:04 PM
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THe first statement was an inquisition. The second was a statement based on a straw man of what I figured was the answer to my initial question.
How does that post make any sense?

Your reputation, not mine...

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12-18-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Why?

I never understood why people equate " x points by a defenseman = great defenseman".

Isn't a d-man first duty to play defense, and not to be a fourth forward?

Was Tom Bladon a very good defenseman?

Is Marc-André Bergeron a good defenseman?

Was Mike Green a great defenseman when he had two PPG seasons?

Is Sheldon Souray a very good defenseman?

And that is not to say that Schultz won't be a very good/great defenseman. But if he is, it won't simply be because he's putting up points.
You essentially listed all the exceptions. If you have elite offensive numbers, you are usually a #1 defenseman, at the very least top pairing. Even Mike Green, who takes a regular beating here, is a top pairing Dman. 35ish points (MA Bergeron) isnt elite. Sheldon souray was a top pairing D-men in his prime years (64 point season and 53 point season). Like kaberle, he has since fell off.

Look at the defensemen below

#1 - Shea Weber
#2 - Zdeno Chara
#3 - Erik Karlsson
#4 - Alex Pietrangelo
#5 - Ryan Suter
#6 - Nicklas Lidstrom (retired)
#7 - Kris Letang
#8 - Drew Doughty
#9 - Duncan Keith
#10 - Keith Yandle
#11 - Dan Boyle
#12 - Alexander Edler

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1247437

Those are the top 12 defenseman in the league as voted by Hfboards. Elite Dmen. How many of them arent a surefire bet for 50+ points? Ryan suter and Zdeno Chara, but they are the best two defensive d-men in the league and are sure bets for 45+ points.
Also look at our very own Dion. Back when he used to get 60 points, he had norris nominations. But now that he only gets 45 points, many dont even consider him a top pairing d-man, but a "good #3" (which I find funny). Interesting to note that Dion is better defensively now than he was at 22...

Second, very few defenseman who produce that many points are as terrible defensively as the defenseman you listed, thats why its such a short list. The chances of Schultz being that bad are very low (looking at history). Most defenseman of this calibre are able to use their IQ and skating to be at least OK defensively (two traits they usually possess when notching up elite point totals). Thats why, when looking at Schultz' AHL production, there is little risk in predicting that he will be a top d-man in the league.

edit: so there is no absolute line, but if you produce 60+ points, its very likely that you will be a top d-man, at least based on history

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12-18-2012, 09:06 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Not every sentence ending with a "?" is a question.

Using a "?" to reinforce a statement is an old literary device.

Reading your post once again, it's quite evident that your first sentence was a statement, not a question.

You wanted to mock him, and you ended up looking foolish.

But let he who has never sinned cast the first stone, as someone once would have supposedly said...
I believe that was a wise man. Several people followed him. Has a birthday coming up.

Thank you for the defense. Personally I would be happy if he could get my name right. But oh well, Copy and Paste just elludes some people.

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12-18-2012, 09:12 PM
  #318
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How does that post make any sense?

Your reputation, not mine...
Pretty simple.

Based on a previous discussion me and Charlio had in which he expressed an opinion that rankings are irrelevant wrt prospects I asked whether a) this was still the case and b) if it was not the case.... was it because the Leafs had a prospect ranked first (which would indicate bias). Thats the straw man and yes you are right its an attempt to mock. That much you are correct in

I think youre putting me on. Not working evidently.

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12-18-2012, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
You essentially listed all the exceptions. If you have elite offensive numbers, you are usually a #1 defenseman, at the very least top pairing. Even Mike Green, who takes a regular beating here, is a top pairing Dman. 35ish points (MA Bergeron) isnt elite. Sheldon souray was a top pairing D-men in his prime years (64 point season and 53 point season). Like kaberle, he has since fell off.

Look at the defensemen below

#1 - Shea Weber
#2 - Zdeno Chara

#3 - Erik Karlsson
#4 - Alex Pietrangelo
#5 - Ryan Suter
#6 - Nicklas Lidstrom (retired)
#7 - Kris Letang
#8 - Drew Doughty
#9 - Duncan Keith
#10 - Keith Yandle
#11 - Dan Boyle
#12 - Alexander Edler

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1247437

Those are the top 12 defenseman in the league as voted by Hfboards. Elite Dmen. How many of them arent a surefire bet for 50+ points? Ryan suter and Zdeno Chara, but they are the best two defensive d-men in the league and are sure bets for 45+ points.
Also look at our very own Dion. Back when he used to get 60 points, he had norris nominations. But now that he only gets 45 points, many dont even consider him a top pairing d-man, but a "good #3" (which I find funny). Interesting to note that Dion is better defensively now than he was at 22...

Second, very few defenseman who produce that many points are as terrible defensively as the defenseman you listed, thats why its such a short list. The chances of Schultz being that bad are very low (looking at history). Most defenseman of this calibre are able to use their IQ and skating to be at least OK defensively (two traits they usually possess when notching up elite point totals). Thats why, when looking at Schultz' AHL production, there is little risk in predicting that he will be a top d-men in the league.
I love this. Got both in my Keeper league.


I think you find that elite offensive D-men like the forwards before them will end up sacrificing some offensive numbers to become better defensively.

Now if you are lucky to to be on a great team like Lidstrom was, offensive numbers will remain high because o hte system in place.

I think it would do everyone a world of good to look at Scott Stevens' carreer if you want to see an offensive player sacrifice offense and change his game to become a more defensive player. Then on to become an elite defensive player.

Example #2 would be Chris Chelios. An offensive weapon who never put up the numbers he was capable of because he was always defensively minded. One of the greatest all round D-men to play the game.

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12-18-2012, 09:16 PM
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Oh god no. My word Charles do I have to instruct you in everything from Toronto Maple Leafs to hockey to brew? I thought the three go hand in hand?
Labbatts 50 right?

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12-18-2012, 09:18 PM
  #321
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Labbatts 50 right?
Stay clear of domestic macros. Import or small batch domestics (craft).

But if I had to suggest one macro during this holiday season (family's coming), try the Rickards taster pack (on sale) for $20.95 in Ontario.

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12-18-2012, 09:18 PM
  #322
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Pretty simple.

Based on a previous discussion me and Charlio had in which he expressed an opinion that rankings are irrelevant wrt prospects I asked whether a) this was still the case and b) if it was not the case.... was it because the Leafs had a prospect ranked first (which would indicate bias). Thats the straw man and yes you are right its an attempt to mock. That much you are correct in

I think youre putting me on. Not working evidently.
And you learned what?

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12-18-2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
And you learned what?
that you actually DONT believe in prospect rankings.

My bad CHARLIO!

I admitted I should have read the thread, I did!

I admit, I usually don't read the whole thread and just pick the most recent posts to launch my paradigm.

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12-18-2012, 09:20 PM
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Stay clear of domestic macros. Import or small batch domestics (craft).

But if I had to suggest one during this holiday season, try the Rickards taster pack (on sale) for $20.95 in Ontario.
No thanks. NOt a Rickards fan.

JR is good. MacLays. If I go premium, Keiths.

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12-18-2012, 09:24 PM
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that you actually DONT believe in prospect rankings.

I admitted I should have read the thread, I did!

I admit, I usually don't read the whole thread and just pick the most recent posts to launch my paradigm.



If the list is reasonable and shows consistancy then I have no problems with it.

When the list has serious inconsistancies(HF) or is done by a complete idiot(Button) then I don't give them any credence.

I'm a complex dude man. Can't pigeon hole me. Pisses a lot of "Black or White" people off.

It is hard to read a 30 page thread. I do usually go back a few pages.

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